Guest ninhao Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 ..... However, in my adult life I am doing everything I can to make life better for those around me..... This is an honourable thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neqodin Posted August 9, 2012 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 5 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/07/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/14/1969 Share Posted August 9, 2012 (edited) Popular Atheist Blogger Announces Conversion to Catholicism By Jeff Schapiro , Christian Post Reporter June 19, 2012|1:33 pm A well-known atheist blogger made a shocking announcement on Monday: after careful consideration, she has concluded that God exists and she has converted to Catholicism. <snip> "I believed that the Moral Law wasn't just a Platonic truth, abstract and distant," she wrote. "It turns out I actually believed it was some kind of Person, as well as Truth. And there was one religion that seemed like the most promising way to reach back to that living Truth. I asked my friend what he suggest we do now, and we prayed the night office of the Liturgy of the Hours together (I've kept up with that since)." Read the rest Well, she was not a real atheist to start with If you think she was, would you accept the possibility that I was a real Christian (saved) before losing my faith? If not, what is the logical reason of this asymmetry? Ciao - viole Why does this have to be logical, the feeling/sense of God's presence is felt in our emotions, our inner senses, our instinct. I was an atheist after losing my faith and I fully believed in science but I have come to realise that there is more to this than simple scientific realities, there is a lot of space between particles which cannot be measured or examined, also, if you push your mind to imagine the outer regions of our "expanding" universe, what would you say it is expanding into? It is the space around the science that is God and this is logical but we feel it in the space within us which is our emotions and instincts. Edited August 9, 2012 by neqodin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ninhao Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Well, it's better than this obsession with sin and self-loathing that many Christians seem engaged in. I don't know about this self loathing. Do you mean the Christians understanding of his imperfection and his humble acceptance he is a sinner? I don't see this as self loathing but reality. Enoob wrote: “You were born in a place of sin and for the entire time you have been here you have been immerced in that sin.” I am assuming this is his statement on the human condition for otherwise how could one make such a remark about another whom they do not know? He also said I would understand this. Well, I've heard that sort of thing before, but I don't accept it. I don't see it as reflecting most of the people I know. Where do you stand on this? You will need to ask Enoob to clarify what he means. I believe every human has sin in varying degrees. Is this your question? PS. Like the avatar, by the way. I can’t quite make out the words surrounding the (bird’s?) eye. What do they say? The avatar is "The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle Haruki Murakami " An interesting fantastical book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted August 9, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,425 Content Per Day: 8.00 Reputation: 21,578 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Celsius I know you can understand this: You were born in a place of sin and for the entire time you have been here [on earth] you have been immersed in that sin... I don't feel it Enoob. I was conceived in love. I was born into love. As a child I knew only love from by parents and larger family. In my life I have not always been perfect. I have even done a small number of things I wish I could undo, but I can't. However, in my adult life I am doing everything I can to make life better for those around me. I have no sense that I am immersed in sin – quite the contrary. I have no more time to post at the moment. I will respond later to the rest of your post. Celsius I understand that you believe based on your own authority of defining good! Does it make sense to you that if all the material you have (all) is wood then if you try to make something= you would use wood naturally... now let's say the project your doing will have fire come around it now and again-> will you build with wood anyway cause that is all you have and will you call it a good job? More importantly all the effort you put forth to build this object will it hold up against the fire? So what will be the outcome of all this naturally? The witness of this world says everything you do within it will not last... but a continual rebuilding is required or decay and rot will have its way! You really are calling this good? As you set in your testimony of a loving world a child not to far from your spot of love is crying and being destroyed by someone using them like a machine... they are getting what they want out the child even though it destroys the life of the child in so doing! You will naturally say our little love spot is not doing that... but never the less the fire will come against this naturally as this child will grow up and possibly be your caretaker in a nursing home~! To stick ones head in the sand and focus on the immediate and not evaluate the whole is the authority you are using to evaluate your world... yet is clearly an incorrect response for the children of abuse and murder are growing by leaps and bounds and they are our tomorrows! However you may maintain this belief today but tomorrow comes... Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted August 9, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,425 Content Per Day: 8.00 Reputation: 21,578 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Popular Atheist Blogger Announces Conversion to Catholicism By Jeff Schapiro , Christian Post Reporter June 19, 2012|1:33 pm A well-known atheist blogger made a shocking announcement on Monday: after careful consideration, she has concluded that God exists and she has converted to Catholicism. <snip> "I believed that the Moral Law wasn't just a Platonic truth, abstract and distant," she wrote. "It turns out I actually believed it was some kind of Person, as well as Truth. And there was one religion that seemed like the most promising way to reach back to that living Truth. I asked my friend what he suggest we do now, and we prayed the night office of the Liturgy of the Hours together (I've kept up with that since)." Read the rest Well, she was not a real atheist to start with If you think she was, would you accept the possibility that I was a real Christian (saved) before losing my faith? If not, what is the logical reason of this asymmetry? Ciao - viole Why does this have to be logical, the feeling/sense of God's presence is felt in our emotions, our inner senses, our instinct. I was an atheist after losing my faith and I fully believed in science but I have come to realize that there is more to this than simple scientific realities, there is a lot of space between particles which cannot be measured or examined, also, if you push your mind to imagine the outer regions of our "expanding" universe, what would you say it is expanding into? It is the space around the science that is God and this is logical but we feel it in the space within us which is our emotions and instincts. It would be a healthier relating this as it is witness of that which we cannot examine so determined by authority that is greater than our own... all of corporeal reality is a witness of God not God however! For in His infinite abilities He simply wills and it 'IS' so... you are correct however in the notice of this witness as a pointer to that which is greater in all aspect in witness-> for nobody does anything with space other than receive it's witness-> all else from the smallest into the largest contains more of it than anything thing else as there is more space in a solid object than mass... this is the witness I speak of Ro 1:20-23 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man — and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. NKJV You will naturally gravitate to the 'invisible attributes' as space but you have only taken the corporeal aspects of space and turned it into an idol... for God says His Creation gives witness of Him but His as Being 'IS' invisible or better not seen! Clearly we are able to see space (the witness) but as To The Being of God 'IS' not seen except in the Body of his Son Jesus The Christ! Job 9:5-13 5 He removes the mountains, and they do not know When He overturns them in His anger; 6 He shakes the earth out of its place, And its pillars tremble; 7 He commands the sun, and it does not rise; He seals off the stars; 8 He alone spreads out the heavens, And treads on the waves of the sea; 9 He made the Bear, Orion, and the Pleiades, And the chambers of the south; 10 He does great things past finding out, Yes, wonders without number. 11 If He goes by me, I do not see Him; If He moves past, I do not perceive Him; 12 If He takes away, who can hinder Him? Who can say to Him, 'What are You doing?' 13 God will not withdraw His anger, The allies of the proud lie prostrate beneath Him. NKJV This man in the fires of suffering saw clearly this truth .... it is why the fear of God is only the beginning of wisdom! Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neqodin Posted August 9, 2012 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 5 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/07/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/14/1969 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Popular Atheist Blogger Announces Conversion to Catholicism By Jeff Schapiro , Christian Post Reporter June 19, 2012|1:33 pm A well-known atheist blogger made a shocking announcement on Monday: after careful consideration, she has concluded that God exists and she has converted to Catholicism. <snip> "I believed that the Moral Law wasn't just a Platonic truth, abstract and distant," she wrote. "It turns out I actually believed it was some kind of Person, as well as Truth. And there was one religion that seemed like the most promising way to reach back to that living Truth. I asked my friend what he suggest we do now, and we prayed the night office of the Liturgy of the Hours together (I've kept up with that since)." Read the rest Well, she was not a real atheist to start with If you think she was, would you accept the possibility that I was a real Christian (saved) before losing my faith? If not, what is the logical reason of this asymmetry? Ciao - viole Why does this have to be logical, the feeling/sense of God's presence is felt in our emotions, our inner senses, our instinct. I was an atheist after losing my faith and I fully believed in science but I have come to realize that there is more to this than simple scientific realities, there is a lot of space between particles which cannot be measured or examined, also, if you push your mind to imagine the outer regions of our "expanding" universe, what would you say it is expanding into? It is the space around the science that is God and this is logical but we feel it in the space within us which is our emotions and instincts. It would be a healthier relating this as it is witness of that which we cannot examine so determined by authority that is greater than our own... all of corporeal reality is a witness of God not God however! For in His infinite abilities He simply wills and it 'IS' so... you are correct however in the notice of this witness as a pointer to that which is greater in all aspect in witness-> for nobody does anything with space other than receive it's witness-> all else from the smallest into the largest contains more of it than anything thing else as there is more space in a solid object than mass... this is the witness I speak of Ro 1:20-23 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man — and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. NKJV You will naturally gravitate to the 'invisible attributes' as space but you have only taken the corporeal aspects of space and turned it into an idol... for God says His Creation gives witness of Him but His as Being 'IS' invisible or better not seen! Clearly we are able to see space (the witness) but as To The Being of God 'IS' not seen except in the Body of his Son Jesus The Christ! Job 9:5-13 5 He removes the mountains, and they do not know When He overturns them in His anger; 6 He shakes the earth out of its place, And its pillars tremble; 7 He commands the sun, and it does not rise; He seals off the stars; 8 He alone spreads out the heavens, And treads on the waves of the sea; 9 He made the Bear, Orion, and the Pleiades, And the chambers of the south; 10 He does great things past finding out, Yes, wonders without number. 11 If He goes by me, I do not see Him; If He moves past, I do not perceive Him; 12 If He takes away, who can hinder Him? Who can say to Him, 'What are You doing?' 13 God will not withdraw His anger, The allies of the proud lie prostrate beneath Him. NKJV This man in the fires of suffering saw clearly this truth .... it is why the fear of God is only the beginning of wisdom! Love, Steven What he says but in a more modern way of speaking...lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted August 9, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,425 Content Per Day: 8.00 Reputation: 21,578 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Popular Atheist Blogger Announces Conversion to Catholicism By Jeff Schapiro , Christian Post Reporter June 19, 2012|1:33 pm A well-known atheist blogger made a shocking announcement on Monday: after careful consideration, she has concluded that God exists and she has converted to Catholicism. <snip> "I believed that the Moral Law wasn't just a Platonic truth, abstract and distant," she wrote. "It turns out I actually believed it was some kind of Person, as well as Truth. And there was one religion that seemed like the most promising way to reach back to that living Truth. I asked my friend what he suggest we do now, and we prayed the night office of the Liturgy of the Hours together (I've kept up with that since)." Read the rest Well, she was not a real atheist to start with If you think she was, would you accept the possibility that I was a real Christian (saved) before losing my faith? If not, what is the logical reason of this asymmetry? Ciao - viole Why does this have to be logical, the feeling/sense of God's presence is felt in our emotions, our inner senses, our instinct. I was an atheist after losing my faith and I fully believed in science but I have come to realize that there is more to this than simple scientific realities, there is a lot of space between particles which cannot be measured or examined, also, if you push your mind to imagine the outer regions of our "expanding" universe, what would you say it is expanding into? It is the space around the science that is God and this is logical but we feel it in the space within us which is our emotions and instincts. It would be a healthier relating this as it is witness of that which we cannot examine so determined by authority that is greater than our own... all of corporeal reality is a witness of God not God however! For in His infinite abilities He simply wills and it 'IS' so... you are correct however in the notice of this witness as a pointer to that which is greater in all aspect in witness-> for nobody does anything with space other than receive it's witness-> all else from the smallest into the largest contains more of it than anything thing else as there is more space in a solid object than mass... this is the witness I speak of Ro 1:20-23 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man — and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. NKJV You will naturally gravitate to the 'invisible attributes' as space but you have only taken the corporeal aspects of space and turned it into an idol... for God says His Creation gives witness of Him but His as Being 'IS' invisible or better not seen! Clearly we are able to see space (the witness) but as To The Being of God 'IS' not seen except in the Body of his Son Jesus The Christ! Job 9:5-13 5 He removes the mountains, and they do not know When He overturns them in His anger; 6 He shakes the earth out of its place, And its pillars tremble; 7 He commands the sun, and it does not rise; He seals off the stars; 8 He alone spreads out the heavens, And treads on the waves of the sea; 9 He made the Bear, Orion, and the Pleiades, And the chambers of the south; 10 He does great things past finding out, Yes, wonders without number. 11 If He goes by me, I do not see Him; If He moves past, I do not perceive Him; 12 If He takes away, who can hinder Him? Who can say to Him, 'What are You doing?' 13 God will not withdraw His anger, The allies of the proud lie prostrate beneath Him. NKJV This man in the fires of suffering saw clearly this truth .... it is why the fear of God is only the beginning of wisdom! Love, Steven What he says but in a more modern way of speaking...lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ninhao Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 I found the following on The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle: Two chapters from the second volume of the original three-volume Japanese paperback edition were not included in the English translation. In addition, one of the chapters near the excluded two was moved ahead of another chapter, taking it out of the context of the original order. Did you notice any problem with continuity? Also, there is apparently more than one translation. Which did you read? I am guessing that you really enjoyed this book and recommend it? Yes there was an unusual flow in parts of the book but I did not realise the reason was as you say. I thought it was simply the problem of Japanese to English translation. I read this book ~ 7 years ago. It brings quite vivid imagery and delves into a world of detached reality but is not science fiction per se. I did enjoy it but think it would be much better if I could read and think Japanese I do recommend it. This is the edition I believe i read. (enjoy the search for the cat ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 No one with a genuine relationship with Christ ever goes back to unbelief. I would phrase it differently, Shiloh. Barker did not return to unbelief. Neither did the others I spoke of. This was their first foray into that territory. The notion that a true Christian cannot lose their belief system is a false perception. If you were actually to read Barker and some of the other former evangelical preachers, turned atheist, I think you would be hard pressed to consider their Christian belief non-genuine. I will admit that I never possessed the sort of belief system you adhere to, but Barker and others did. You may not want to believe it, but in my reading of them they sound very much like you and Jacob. Many of the preachers whom you mention, if you dig deep enough, never had a relationship with God. They had religion, but they never had Christ. Jesus was more of a theological concept or just another biblical figure than a person with whom they had a relationship. I can say that because everyone I know who has left Christianity for something else fits the same basic mold. They ususally come from a very liberal denomination that really got into the meat of Scripture and never taught anyone about the need for salvation. As long as you were sprinkled and took communion, you were considerd a "Christian." The problem is that such teachings never prepared people for the challenges that the world presents to our faith. That would probably be descriptive of me, you could make a case for that scenario, though I was never baptised (my parents, or perhaps it was my father, did not believe in it). It may also be true that all those whom you know and who have lost their belief all came from a liberal Christian background, as I did, but that is not the case for Barker and a number of others who are published. They came from a strong evangelical background where a personal relationship with God and Christ counted for everything. I know a guy I used to go to church with who didn't just become an atheist. He is almost militant about it. What I find is that converts (either from religious belief to atheism, or from atheism back to religion, or from one religion to another) often appear quite militant (or should I say, zealous?). That was true of myself for a number of years. In his introduction to John W. Loftus' book, The Christian Delusion, Dan Barker writes: "It's been said that converts make the best Catholics. Or Jews. Or fill-in-the-blanks. You have to be quite motivated to focus intently enough on the details of a new worldview to learn exactly what you are embracing. On average, converts probably have more zeal than those who got their religion simply by being born into it" (p. 10). I have found a good number of zealous atheists over the years and I suspect their zeal may be related, in part to their youth, but also to the newness of their worldview and their sense of its importance. I wonder if this phenomena is also true of those who are born again? But even he admits that he never really was a Christian in the biblical sense. He came to our church from the Episcopal denomination and was turned off by the biblical definition of a Christian eventually went off into atheism. Your situation may different, but you and he and many others have one thing in common. You belonged to churches that were weak when it comes to biblical teaching. When your "faith" was challenged, you had nothing, nothing to answer those challenges with. I agree with some of your observations Shiloh, but I think you are off-the-mark in others. Christian liberal upbringing, such as mine, may make it easier for some to leave the fold than perhaps is the case for those of your persuasion, but that doesn't mean that people such as yourself never lose their faith. It happens. I have talked with such individuals but they are very hesitant to come out to their family and friends. I had no hesitation in telling my family what had happened to my beliefs, but for many with an evangelical upbringing religion is so tied up with personal relationships that they were concerned their rejection of religion would be taken personally by their family members. When evangelicals become atheists their family and friend relationships sometimes become strained to the breaking point. I don't think that happens with those from a Christian liberal background. The problem is that you are still opreating from "belief systems." I don't have a beleif system. I have a relationsthip with Jesus. Peopple like you and Barker have belief systems. Being a Christian is not about what you believe. It is about who you are in relationship with . I have a relationship with Jesus and He is more real than you are. I don't base my theology on other people's experiences because people embellish and exagerate. We have had other atheists come on this board and claim to be former Christians and just as is the case with you, they never were Christians at all. They were either lying OR they have no concept of what a Christian is and operate from a flawed notion of Christianity is about. The fact that you claim that you begged God to show you who He is and never found Him, says a lot about the kind of church you claim that you attended. It shows that those pepole are as clueless, blind and ignroant about God as you are. As for God not reaching out to you... Has it occurred to you that God has been reaching out to you through people who tried to tell you the truth??? God isn't going to show up on your doorstep or send you some vision. When you die, you are going to step out into eternity and you will stand before the God you denied over and over again. He will show all of the attempts he made to reach out to you and all of the times you rejected Him over and over again. You will stand before God in your rejection and without an excuse. The only person to blame for you not finding God is you. He is always true to His promises, but you have to receive Him by fath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 I grew up in the United Church and in my circle I don't recall any minister ever talking about being saved. It wasn't a term I became familiar with till later in life. We were not evangelical. The whole thing still sounds quite alien to me. There's a big part of the problem. Your pastor never told you about having a relationship with God. Salvation is based on a real relationship and it is free to anyone who truly wants it. That being saved is alien to you is very telling when it comes to what you were taught. There denominations that do not teach salvation, that simply promote a set of propositional beliefs and if you assent to those beliefs and get sprinkled, you are a "Christian." The Bible, which is rarely taught in those kinds of churches, defines what a Christian in terms of relationship, not in terms of having a certain set of beliefs "The Bible is central to The United Church of Canada." Those are the words of my former church. So much for the Bible rarely being taught there. Shiloh, you sometimes ramble on about things that you have little knowledge of. This is one of those times. Now, having said that I think there is a kernel of truth in your statement, but it gets jumbled around with things you get wrong. If you want an overview of my former church go here: http://www.united-ch...eliefs/overview I'm not surprised to hear this at all. Thank you, God, for leading me to this post....by accident. Praise the Lord!!! Alleluia!!! And God bless you Celsius. It's nothing to rejoice about. They support homosexualty and believe that all religions lead to God. If you read the link he supplies, you will see that it is not a curch of believers in Christ beyond the way they try to pervert the teachings of Jesus to support their liberal social agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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