SkilletRocksMyFace Posted October 18, 2004 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 121 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1983 Author Share Posted October 18, 2004 Just another quick in and out post here between classes: Firstly, we arleady delt with Abraham's bossom, the parable, and the scriputre in Heb 11 that show Abraham is indeed dead and have not yet recieved the promise. Secondly, about Sual, notice when you read the passage that Samual came from the ground and he also declares "why have you wakened me from my sleep" Hmm... if Souls were imortal why did not samul come from heaven? Was he not rightouts and just? Aslo, whenveer and old testiment figure dies it is usualy refered to as "now abrham feel asleep in the lord" this means death. The same with Lazurus when Christ raised him as well. Now lets clear this up, I do not preach soul sleep (I dont know what this doctrine is) I preach death and ressurection. Thanks, be back later. good posts all around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Timer Posted October 18, 2004 Group: Soapbox - Members Followers: 2 Topic Count: 68 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 962 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 52 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/18/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/11/1932 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Is scripture not replete with instances of prohibitions regarding Spiritists and those who consult the dead? Did not Saul seek the help of a Spiritist and successfully conjure up the spirit of the prophet Samuel? I believe this puts to bed the notion of soul sleep, pardon the pun. In Christ. Grasping at straws, aren't you. You base a doctrine of faith on consulting spirits of the dead? Something God forbids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkilletRocksMyFace Posted October 18, 2004 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 121 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1983 Author Share Posted October 18, 2004 That too, good one old timer. The fact is, is that mortal bodies (we all know we are motal) are living souls (see my scriptures posted earlier plus strongs concordance definition. And we die (we all know we die). Paul tells us that mortal CANNOT put on immortality, so the notion of an "immortal soul" is not scritpural. Paul tells us that WHEN CHRIST RETURNS and not before shall the mortal put on immortality, this is all eveident in 1Cor15 as I have shown. Soul in strongs: nephesh, Hebrew 5315, Strong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest savedbythepassion Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Hi, Oldtimer. You asked me this: Grasping at straws, aren't you. You base a doctrine of faith on consulting spirits of the dead? Something God forbids. I hope you are not suggesting that I personally consult the dead. If so, you would be wrong. No, I base my belief, as we all should, on scripture. It is clear in 1 Samuel that mediums can consult the spirits of the dead successfully. I don't know why you think I'm grasping at straws. Please explain. I will post the scripture for you, and you point out why it is wrong or deficient. K? 1 Samuel 28:7 Then Saul said to his servants, "Seek out for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her." And his servants said to him, "Behold, there is a medium at Endor." 8 So Saul disguised himself and put on other garments, and went, he and two men with him; and they came to the woman by night. And he said, "Divine for me by a spirit, and bring up for me whomever I shall name to you." 9 The woman said to him, "Surely you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off the mediums and the wizards from the land. Why then are you laying a snare for my life to bring about my death?" 10 But Saul swore to her by the LORD, "As the LORD lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing." 11 Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" He said, "Bring up Samuel for me." 12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul." 13 The king said to her, "Have no fear; what do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a god coming up out of the earth." 14 He said to her, "What is his appearance?" And she said, "An old man is coming up; and he is wrapped in a robe." And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground, and did obeisance. 15 Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" Saul answered, "I am in great distress; for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams; therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do." 16 And Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done to you as he spoke by me; for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand, and given it to your neighbor, David. 18 Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD, and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Am'alek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. 19 Moreover the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines; and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me; the LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted October 18, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 18, 2004 Because I am always short on time....what exactly are you asserting? That there will be a ressurection, a judgement, and after this heaven or hell and that between death and this event the soul sleeps...........or that the sould just dies off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest savedbythepassion Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Skillet Firstly, we arleady delt with Abraham's bossom, the parable, and the scriputre in Heb 11 that show Abraham is indeed dead and have not yet recieved the promise. Secondly, about Sual, notice when you read the passage that Samual came from the ground and he also declares "why have you wakened me from my sleep" Hmm... if Souls were imortal why did not samul come from heaven? Was he not rightouts and just? Aslo, whenveer and old testiment figure dies it is usualy refered to as "now abrham feel asleep in the lord" this means death. The same with Lazurus when Christ raised him as well. End I believe that when man was made in the image of God, he was endowed with an eternal spirit. That is the image of God we possess. It doesn't cease to exist, ever. The technical difference between spirit and soul is that the soul is the living breathing organism. In fact, non-human animals are referred to souls in scripture, and they die, but have no eternal spirit. Once our mortal bodies die (sleep), our spirit persists. In scripture, the spirits of man proceeded to Hades (not heaven or hell) upon physical death of the body before the fulfillment of the Christ covenant. That is why in the scripture previously quoted, the spirit of Samuel tells Saul that he is about to join him. BTW, my translation does not refer to awakening the spirit of Samuel from sleep, but mentions disturbing him. Falling asleep in the lord means the physical death of the body, not the spirit. Matt 22:23 The same day Sad'ducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection; and they asked him a question, 24 saying, "Teacher, Moses said, 'If a man dies, having no children, his brother must marry the widow, and raise up children for his brother.' 25 Now there were seven brothers among us; the first married, and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother. 26 So too the second and third, down to the seventh. 27 After them all, the woman died. 28 In the resurrection, therefore, to which of the seven will she be wife? For they all had her." 29 But Jesus answered them, "You are wrong, because you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living." 33 And when the crowd heard it, they were astonished at his teaching. In this scripture, spoken by Jesus, we know that the OT patriarchs and prophets are not dead, but living and awaiting the resurrection of their bodies. What is living? Their spirits, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Timer Posted October 18, 2004 Group: Soapbox - Members Followers: 2 Topic Count: 68 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 962 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 52 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/18/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/11/1932 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Hi, Oldtimer. You asked me this: Grasping at straws, aren't you. You base a doctrine of faith on consulting spirits of the dead? Something God forbids. I hope you are not suggesting that I personally consult the dead. If so, you would be wrong. No, I base my belief, as we all should, on scripture. It is clear in 1 Samuel that mediums can consult the spirits of the dead successfully. I don't know why you think I'm grasping at straws. Please explain. I will post the scripture for you, and you point out why it is wrong or deficient. K? Savedbythepassion, no, I did not mean to imply that you contact the dead or think it wise. The point I was trying to make, evidently unsuccessfully, was that after many scriptures give by Skillet and myself supporting the doctrine that what we are to look forward to as Christians is the return of our Lord. NOT going to heaven. And, in fact, the idea of going to heaven is not scriptural. Then, in refuting this you mention Saul consulting a witch to bring up a spirit that MAY HAVE BEEN Samuel. I said, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sachi Posted October 18, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 162 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 18, 2004 Skillet: quote Secondly, about Sual, notice when you read the passage that Samual came from the ground and he also declares "why have you wakened me from my sleep" Hmm... if Souls were imortal why did not samul come from heaven? Was he not rightouts and just? Aslo, whenveer and old testiment figure dies it is usualy refered to as "now abrham feel asleep in the lord" this means death. O.k. however, the way I understood it was that this is BEFORE Jesus died and was resurrected from the dead and ascended to the Father. My understanding was that He opened access to heaven up for his saints. That is why Paul could write in Hebrews 12: 14, 22 etc "You have not come to a mountain that cannot be touched ...you have come to Mount Zion to the heavenly Jerusalem the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands fo angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn whose names arewritten in heaven. You have come to God the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of the new convenant and to the sprinkled blood .... [/i Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sachi Posted October 19, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 162 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 19, 2004 Skllet,quote: Now lets clear this up, I do not preach soul sleep (I dont know what this doctrine is) I preach death and ressurection. Super Jew, quote: ....what exactly are you asserting? That there will be a ressurection, a judgement, and after this heaven or hell and that between death and this event the soul sleeps...........or that the sould just dies off? [/quote] Skillet, I guess Super Jew already raised the question I had - what are you saying about what happens to the soul / spirit after it leaves the body upon physical death? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryt Posted October 19, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 52 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,230 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 124 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/03/1952 Share Posted October 19, 2004 The reason I was focusing on the definition of death is just this: If death means - ceasing existance, then the arguement holds that the soul is not eternal. If death means - separation then the moment Adam ate of the fruit he didn't cease existance, but was separated from God in all aspects. Ge 2:16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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