DaniJ87 Posted October 25, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 265 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/30/1987 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Because there is no situation in which logical laws are not applicable, no matter how many dimensions there are. Regardless of how many dimensions that there 'might' be, God is above our shallow flawed logic. Just because something seems logical for us, doesn't mean it's logical to God... vice versa: For example: Is it logical in your mind for God to create people with a free will... who sin against Him... who constantly doubt Him, ignore Him, or disobey Him? Is it logical for God to put up with all of our problems, and sin, when it would be so much easier to just blow up the world and start over? Is it logical for the Son of God to die on a cruel cross just because we would all go to Hell without Him? Is it logical for Him to offer us mercy, grace, and salvation? God is above our logic, my friend. No matter how you try to argue about it. There are some things that we just cannot solve, define, measure or explain. The Creator of all things, physical and abstract, pretty much falls in that category. I totally agree with that statement. We just cannot understand God. No techonological advance has ever defied logic. Nothing ever has, nothing ever will. Therefore please name any single technological or scientific advance that has defied logic? I know of no instance in which logic has changed. OK... First of all, I believe that in some cases, logic changes from person to person..... For example: It defied all of the 'logic' known by men in the middle ages, for the heliocentric theory to be correct. And I think that even more than changing through time, logic and perspective change when your motivation changes- when you become a Christian, and start looking for what you can do for others and God, rather than what you can do for yourself, what you percieve as being logical changes. Logic as the rest of the world sees it will become more insignificant, and what God has laid down in His Word becomes more important. What is logical and practical becomes doing what God has set down in the Bible for us to do- The bible contains vitally important truths for just about every subject you could need advice about.... and it's all logical- from a Christian perspective. Before you go and refute all my statements, consider this: What truly gives us the right to even question what God can do, is doing, has done, and what He is? Shouldn't we just accept Him? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On the Lighter Side Heard from my pastor one time when referring to the Bible: "When I was a kid, and was first introduced to the Bible, I thought "Wow- this is really cool- there's even a 'Job' manual in here!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bread_of_Life Posted October 25, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 872 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/17/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/24/1981 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Saved by Grace The answer to all three of your questions is NO So God cannot do anything imaginable? Logic does in fact limit what he can do? The answers are NO because there are NO limits to God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budman Posted October 25, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 407 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/09/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 25, 2004 Could God create another God more powerful and greater than himself? Could God defeat himself at chess? Could God gain more knowledge than he already has? There are a whole list of things that God cannot do, because they are definitionally (logically) impossible to do. So yes, there are limits to even God's abilities. Couple of points here... First, Omnipotence has historically been understood as the ability to perform any task consistent with His character and essence. (At least that's the classical definition/understanding of it). This would exclude 'things' like... Re his character: It is impossible for God to lie (He actually is the one who told us this in the scriptures). It is impossible for God to break an promise. It is impossible for God to deny his existence and character (tantamount to lying, of course). Re his essence: It is impossible for him to split into two essences (a la cell division). It is impossible for him to will himself out of existence. Secondly, there are some things that we can build pseudo-sentences about, that actually don't end up being 'tasks'...some can be quite comical... "Can God make this question into a declarative sentence?" "Can God change the subject of this sentence to 'jello'?" "Can God make this sentence so long that he cannot read it?" These 'sentences' seem odd to us, for they look like regular sentences, but they have what philosophers of language call 'ungrammaticality' Then there is another class of sentences in which grammaticality is present, but there are improper referents and relations, similar to the linguists' favorite: "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously". These sentences (and any questions based upon them like "Do colorless green ideas sleep furiously?") are said to have no truth value (neither true nor false)--they just don't have any meaning to BE true or false. It is into this category that the following sentences/questions fit: God can make a square circle. God can make a rock so big it turns into a peach. God can make a rock so invisible that it casts a shadow 2 yards long! etc... It is in this category that the famous "God can make a rock so big he cannot lift it" fits. As a 'sentence' it actually has no meaning, and hence is neither true nor false. warm regards -bud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Az_ Posted October 26, 2004 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 117 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 26, 2004 The word omnipotent is simply a word coined by the human species speculating about the subject of what a being conjectured to be infinitely more powerful than themself might be capable of. Our claims and notions of what a God can or cannot do are meaningless. Do you really think a God will adhere to your definitions? As an atheist I can tell you that this argument is not an effective means of refuting God. It is simply tied to heavily to our definitions and expectations of what some want God to be. If you define God you hand us atheists the tools with which to dismantle him. Really. This is not an argument we run in any serious attempt to refute the existance of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bread_of_Life Posted October 26, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 872 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/17/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/24/1981 Share Posted October 26, 2004 Budman, I disagree that the statement: "God can create a God more powerful than himself" does not have a truth value. Firstly, it is a sentence created with proper referents and relations. It is unlike "colourless green ideas sleep furiously" in that sense. Secondly, it is not what you call ungrammaticality - it is not a sentence that makes grammatical sense but has no truth value. Very few sentences fit into this category - sentences like: "This statement is a lie" It makes grammatical sense, but cannot have a truth value, for its truth would prove its falsehood, and its falsehood prove its truth. The sentence is formally meaningless, although grammatically correct. However, the sentence "God can create a God more powerful than himself" can and does have a truth value (of zero). It is untrue, God cannot create a God more powerful than himself, for such a object is not a contingent possibility, it cannot exist. In other words, this is a properly defined and sensible limit on God's power - it is not a meaningless sentence or question in either sense that you gave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catsmeow Posted October 26, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 439 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 7,315 Content Per Day: 0.93 Reputation: 356 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/21/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted October 26, 2004 the argument is as follows: god can either create a stone he cant lift, or he cant create the stone he cant lift. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This silly argument is as old as the hills. Tell your college genius that God can make a rock that he sure can't lift...DUH? Also, tell yer little buddy there that there's a LOT of things God CAN'T do... like.... He can't learn: He knows it all and He can't lie; He only speaks the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 Also, tell yer little buddy there that there's a LOT of things God CAN'T do... like.... He can't learn: He knows it all and He can't lie; He only speaks the truth. I saw this topic, and the many, many replies, and decide to go straight to the end, as much as I would have liked to read them, time is tight. Fortuneatly, a point I was going to make was just above my reply, the Bible admits there are things which God cannot do. There are two problems with the original problem. The most obvious is, that it does not even come close to proving that God doesn't exist, it can only pretent to prove that He is not omnipotent, existence and omnipotence, are not the same thing. The other problem is that Christians have a misconception about what omnipotence is, and that is why this arguement entraps us. When we speak of the omnipotence of God, we are not making the comment that God can do anything, we are making the observation, that He is the Creator, He brought the Universe into existence. Therefore, there are only two kinds of power, the power God had before the Creation, and the power that He put into place in the creation, which He can destroy as easily as He created it. What this amounts to is that All Power, is His to wield, any other power is delegated and revokeable. All power is His. That is what is meant my the omnipotence of God. If that was redundant with other posts, I apologize. Sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you for a reason of the hope that is in you with humility and respect. 1 Pet 3:15 Omegaman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChadB Posted October 26, 2004 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 42 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/07/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 26, 2004 WE CAN'T POSSIBLY UNDERSTAND THE WORKINGS OF GOD!!!!!!!! I HOPE YOU CAN SEE THAT WE CAN ALL ARGUE UNTIL WE ARE BLUE IN THE FACE AND THE UNBELIEVERS WILL STILL BE ON THEIR SIDE AND THE BELIEVERS ON THE OTHER!!!! We can't possibly place logic on everything. We are NOT as smart as we all think we are. I believe because I have personally experienced God. I know He is there. I believe Jesus is the Son of God who paid the price for our "STUPID" and sinful ways. So lets stop trying to disprove God by saying stupid remarks such as the ever popular "big rock" question or can God make a purple orange? Its just dumb, plain and simple. Those of you who are trying to disprove God by using big words and stupid questions need to take off the blinders and truly search your heart. Maybe pray for understanding. I just don't get it. But I WILL pray for you and hope that you find the answers. I hope one day you will realize that the simple answer to many of our questions is WE ARE NOT SMART ENOUGH TO FIGURE IT OUT!!!! Peace and Gods love to ya'll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted October 26, 2004 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 79 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted October 26, 2004 I HOPE YOU CAN SEE THAT WE CAN ALL ARGUE UNTIL WE ARE BLUE IN THE FACE AND THE UNBELIEVERS WILL STILL BE ON THEIR SIDE AND THE BELIEVERS ON THE OTHER!!!! Chad, brother. No one is arguing. We are discussing. Actually, our friends here agree that the rock argument has no real meaning and proves nothing. Do you remember what it was like when you were an enemy of God? I do...and I thank HIM for all those saints HE sent my way to share HIS TRUTH with me. I wish that I could let them all know that those seeds they planted long ago actually germinated and sprouted. Regardless, they will know soon enough at the great Harvest. Be Blessed, Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted October 26, 2004 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 79 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted October 26, 2004 Saved by Grace The answer to all three of your questions is NO So God cannot do anything imaginable? Logic does in fact limit what he can do? The answers are NO because there are NO limits to God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts