When are the dead ressurected?

[His Ambassador]

Rev 20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. This passage here tells us that the first resurrection of the bodies of the saints is after the tribulation and going into the 1000 years reign of Christ on earth. Paul explains the resurrection of the bodies of the saints in 1 Cor 15:42-49 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. And that was Paul's hope and joy to attain like resurrection with the Lord, Phil 3:10-11 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Paul told Timothy about two that were proclaiming that the resurrection had already past, and its important to note that there is only one resurrection of the saints ever mentioned and that is the resurrection of the bodies of the saints to be transformed into the new incorruptible and immortal one like the Lord's body. 2 Tim 2:17-19 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” The resurrection is mentioned here in Hebrews as an elementary principle, one that has clearly been defined and is necessary for babes in the faith, Heb 6:1-3 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. And this is the hope of all believers in Christ, we are looking forward to this experience, 1 Pet 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. These are the passages and verses that speak of the(definitive article the only one) resurrection of the bodies of the saints.

Your point?

Your original statement included this: The resurrection of the dead (usually called the "first resurrection") has already occurred in the spiritual realm. The point is that this statement is not scriptural. The first resurrection is not in the spiritual realm as you stated and furthermore I have never read in scripture of a spiritual resurrection. Where is it mentioned?

The Bible does not say WHERE the first resurrection takes place. YOUR assumption is that it takes place in the physical realm.

[AlexanderJ]

The Bible does not say WHERE the first resurrection takes place. YOUR assumption is that it takes place in the physical realm.

Why would a spirit need to be ressurected? Spirits don't die! You can't ressurect something that is alive - it would contradict the definition of ressurection.

Edited November 24, 2012 by AlexanderJ

[His Ambassador]

I have never read in scripture of a spiritual resurrection.

Good point. Spirits are immortal - why on earth would they need to be ressurected? It is the body that must be ressurected and glorified.

The first resurrection has taken place. The dead in Christ were resurrected from their bodies directly into the spiritual realm and are now in Paradise with the Lord. A Believer who dies today goes directly to Paradise to be with the Lord and does not sleep in the grave.

[His Ambassador]

Nothing I've said contradicts Scripture only what your teachers have added to it. I have been a Believer since 1949 and have developed a deeper relationship with God then I ever thought possible. Don't suppose to be more Spiritually mature than me.

When you say "Nothing I've said contradicts Scripture only what your teachers have added to it" you say it without having provided the Scriptural support that you claim that your "revelation" has. I will present my view and support it with Scripture, and it is my hope that you will do likewise.

Every believer has died with Christ and has been raised up with him to walk in newness of life. This process of resurrection is not instantaneous and is called Sanctification - the process by which we are made (while still on this earth) more and more like unto Christ:

Romans 6:3-11 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life...

Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

This process will not be completed while we are yet on this earth because of the sin principle in us:

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Romans 7:23

After we die, however, the sin principle will be destroyed, and we will be raised with incorruptible bodies at the final resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

However, before this corporeal resurrection, I would suggest that the spirits of the believers await this ultimate resurrection in Paradise.

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Luke 23:43

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I have provided the same Scriptural support the members of the rapture cult have provided - none. Because the order of events and time for the "rapture" is not found in Scripture. The "where" of "The dead in Christ will rise....." is not found in Scripture. Many have posted here as if I personally attacked their entire belief system. All I have done is share what God has shown me about where the resurrection of the dead took place. If that shakes your entire belief system then you'd better re-check what you believe.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

New King James Version (NKJV)

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Perhaps you should look at more then just your bible, into the Greek also. It is there and if your version of the bible excludes it, what good is your version if it excludes His words?

The dead in Christ have already risen directly into the spiritual realm and are now in Paradise with the Lord. Those of us who are alive when the Lord returns will be caught up with Him. A believer who dies today goes directly to be with the Lord in Paradise.

[His Ambassador]

Keep in mind that this is a discussion forum, not an information board where people come in to post their revelations and refuse to discuss what they post. Usually, people have their own site to post their revelations that disallow others to comment. Please consider this when posting.

In ages past when God spoke to people and they shared it they were not told to "prove" what they were saying. If you'll notice I have carried on a discussion. I think your problem (and the problem of many Christians) is that what I've shared is different from what you have been taught. Frankly, you can't "prove" what you've been taught. All you can do is say "this is what X number of Biblical teacher have said it means." I'm not disallowing anyone to comment. I just haven't been called to prove it or argue about it.

You are very presumptuous. You assume that I have been reading your posts. I have not. I did, however, through scanning the threads, came across where you refused to explain what you mean or back it with scripture. This is what I speak to. Again, this is a discussion forum where people discuss thoughts and ideas.

I do not need to explain what I mean. It's right there in plain English. It can be backed with the same Scripture the rapture cult uses for their rapture theory.

Why come to a discussion forum when you don't want to discuss? Are you here to reveal your mysteries to us and then leave us hanging? Is this the brotherly love Jesus taught you?

Are you kidding? I have discussed. If you're "hanging" talk to God about it. Don't you hear from Him?

God I have complete confidence in. Your claims to have special revelations is what I am having trouble with. Check the underlined words in bold above.

Yes, I talk with God and He has not mentioned you at all ...

Talk to Him about what He has revealed to me not about ME. I am not important. I am just a poor sinner saved by grace and His humble servant.

I have been talking to him for many years. Yet, the point is, when I come forth with something He has pointed out, I include an explanation to what He has shown me, and this is what I was suggesting you do. Why do you find it so hard to share what you believe about you revelations?

I have shown you what He told me. There's nothing to "explain". It's printed in plain English. Is English not your first language?

[AlexanderJ]

The first resurrection has taken place. The dead in Christ were resurrected from their bodies directly into the spiritual realm and are now in Paradise with the Lord. A Believer who dies today goes directly to Paradise to be with the Lord and does not sleep in the grave.

So if our Spirits leave our bodies directly to go to God, why does Solomon say that our Spirits travel to him at the moment of physical death?

Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

And why does Paul say that the Spirit may be "saved in the day of Christ" if it is ressurected ?

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Corinthians 5:5

Why would Paul bother stating that women should care that their Spirits be holy if their Spirits are ressurected and in heaven?

There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

1 Corinthians 7:34

How could our spirit be troubled if it is ressurected?

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2 Thessalonians 2:2

James states that the body without the spirit is dead? How is it that we are still alive physically if our spirit is in Heaven and not with the body?

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James 2:26

I could go on and on....

Edited November 24, 2012 by AlexanderJ

[His Ambassador]

The first resurrection has taken place. The dead in Christ were resurrected from their bodies directly into the spiritual realm and are now in Paradise with the Lord. A Believer who dies today goes directly to Paradise to be with the Lord and does not sleep in the grave.

So if our Spirits leave our bodies directly to go to God, why does Solomon say that our Spirits travel to him at the moment of physical death?

Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. This does not say WHEN the spirit returns.

And why does Paul say that the Spirit may be "saved in the day of Christ" if it resurected? This means that spirit will be among the saved when Jesus returns.

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Corinthians 5:5

Why would Paul bother stating that women should care that their Spirits be holy if their Spirits are ressurected and in heaven? You're getting a little desperate here. This is talking about women's conduct.

There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

1 Corinthians 7:34

If the Spirit is in Heaven, why does Paul state that it is in our hearts?

Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest (seal) of the Spirit in our hearts.

2 Corinthians 1:22 This is talking about the seal of the HOLY Spirit.

You need to be careful to know what EXACTLY the Scripture you use is saying.

[AlexanderJ]

If the Spirit is in Heaven, why does Paul state that it is in our hearts?

Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest (seal) of the Spirit in our hearts.

2 Corinthians 1:22

I admit, this one could be a bit of a stretch (I had reread it and removed it before you posted), but I was assuming that the Spirit works in conjunction with our Spirit in our hearts. Forgive my carelessness, this is what happens when one talks in circles for pages and pages. Our Spirit is within us - it is not in Heaven.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God...

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 2:11

As regards to the rest, I do know what the Scripture is saying - do you?

Edited November 24, 2012 by AlexanderJ

[allofgrace]

Rev 20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. This passage here tells us that the first resurrection of the bodies of the saints is after the tribulation and going into the 1000 years reign of Christ on earth. Paul explains the resurrection of the bodies of the saints in 1 Cor 15:42-49 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. And that was Paul's hope and joy to attain like resurrection with the Lord, Phil 3:10-11 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Paul told Timothy about two that were proclaiming that the resurrection had already past, and its important to note that there is only one resurrection of the saints ever mentioned and that is the resurrection of the bodies of the saints to be transformed into the new incorruptible and immortal one like the Lord's body. 2 Tim 2:17-19 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” The resurrection is mentioned here in Hebrews as an elementary principle, one that has clearly been defined and is necessary for babes in the faith, Heb 6:1-3 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. And this is the hope of all believers in Christ, we are looking forward to this experience, 1 Pet 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. These are the passages and verses that speak of the(definitive article the only one) resurrection of the bodies of the saints.

Your point?

Your original statement included this: The resurrection of the dead (usually called the "first resurrection") has already occurred in the spiritual realm. The point is that this statement is not scriptural. The first resurrection is not in the spiritual realm as you stated and furthermore I have never read in scripture of a spiritual resurrection. Where is it mentioned?

The Bible does not say WHERE the first resurrection takes place. YOUR assumption is that it takes place in the physical realm.

The scriptures indeed do say where the first resurrection takes place and each of those passages that I posted speak of the resurrection of the bodies of the saints. And that is what Paul is teaching in 1 Cor 15:42-49 when he specifically says So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. And earlier in 15:12-14 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? ¹³ But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. ¹⁴ And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. Now v20-25 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. ²¹ For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. ²² For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. ²³ But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. ²⁴ Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. ²⁵ For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. V35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” back to those already shown in v42-44 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. ⁴³ It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. ⁴⁴ It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. So we see the scriptures do state when the first resurrection takes place and that is what is being shown here and spoken of in Revelation. We see that the resurrection is always talking about the resurrection of the body. And besides, there never is a 2nd resurrection every mentioned in scripture. The resurrection of Jesus is always spoken of but the first resurrection is always talking about of the bodies of the saints. It your obligation to show where you get that the first resurrection means what you said, which is contrary to what the scriptures actually say about the first resurrection.

Edited November 24, 2012 by allofgrace

[His Ambassador]

Rev 20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. This passage here tells us that the first resurrection of the bodies of the saints is after the tribulation and going into the 1000 years reign of Christ on earth. Paul explains the resurrection of the bodies of the saints in 1 Cor 15:42-49 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. And that was Paul's hope and joy to attain like resurrection with the Lord, Phil 3:10-11 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Paul told Timothy about two that were proclaiming that the resurrection had already past, and its important to note that there is only one resurrection of the saints ever mentioned and that is the resurrection of the bodies of the saints to be transformed into the new incorruptible and immortal one like the Lord's body. 2 Tim 2:17-19 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” The resurrection is mentioned here in Hebrews as an elementary principle, one that has clearly been defined and is necessary for babes in the faith, Heb 6:1-3 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. And this is the hope of all believers in Christ, we are looking forward to this experience, 1 Pet 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. These are the passages and verses that speak of the(definitive article the only one) resurrection of the bodies of the saints.

Your point?

Your original statement included this: The resurrection of the dead (usually called the "first resurrection") has already occurred in the spiritual realm. The point is that this statement is not scriptural. The first resurrection is not in the spiritual realm as you stated and furthermore I have never read in scripture of a spiritual resurrection. Where is it mentioned?

The Bible does not say WHERE the first resurrection takes place. YOUR assumption is that it takes place in the physical realm.

The scriptures indeed do say where the first resurrection takes place and each of those passages that I posted speak of the resurrection of the bodies of the saints. And that is what Paul is teaching in 1 Cor 15:42-49 when he specifically says So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. And earlier in 15:12-14 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? ¹³ But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. ¹⁴ And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. Now v20-25 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. ²¹ For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. ²² For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. ²³ But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. ²⁴ Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. ²⁵ For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. V35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” back to those already shown in v42-44 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. ⁴³ It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. ⁴⁴ It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. So we see the scriptures do state when the first resurrection takes place and that is what is being shown here and spoken of in Revelation. We see that the resurrection is always talking about the resurrection of the body. And besides, there never is a 2nd resurrection every mentioned in scripture. The resurrection of Jesus is always spoken of but the first resurrection is always talking about of the bodies of the saints. It your obligation to show where you get that the first resurrection means what you said, which is contrary to what the scriptures actually say about the first resurrection.

I Thes. 4:16 "And the dead in Christ shall rise first."