The Fifth Trumpet - Jerusalem's Seige

[Jayyycuuup]

Its really unfortunate that you want to end the discussion. K was really putting my theory to the test and you were the only one really testing it. And I wasn't trying to disprove anything. I was stating that my theory shouldn't be just dismissed.

So my use of Luke 21:23 didn't apply? Would it help if I used more examples?

I was hoping you would address Luke 21:23.

It is not a matter of scripture. I haven't even went into that. All I have been focused on is the greek grammer of the scripture. The greek langauge all on it's own, makes your belief impossiple. The greek is a very specific langauge. There is no chance it means Jerusalem or Israel. It means the whole earth. You need to do a study on the language used in revelation in comparision to the rest of the new testament. There is no doubt at all in the langauge used. This is about your lack of understanding of greek grammer. That's not me knocking on you, but stating a fact, that's easily correctable. The langauge used by the wriiter leaves no question it's the whole earth. I really don't know what else to say. There is no reason to go in doctrinal reasons when this by itself shows it to be false. As for the Luke verse. It's about context. The context of the surronding verses is used to apply the proper meaning. In the trumpets, there is no referance inderct or direct to Israel or Jerusalem, which means the meaning has to be earth, not land of Israel or land of Jerusalem. Look at all uses of the words in the new testament, not just one verse. Then you'll see what I mean. Look at it in context of the surrounding verses and the language used.

God bless

Firestormx

(IMO) Firestomx is right on the money, and I would encourage you to take his advice. Just as Christ came to save the world, He is to do the same, but instead of being a savior, he is bringing a sword. Not precisely upon Jerusalem and upon the Jewish Nation, but upon the whole earth!

Revelation 1:7

"Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen."

Something I did not mention in my post above, I believe what you were implying is the return of Christ was a spiritual one, but the book of Revelation does not support this, it actually depletes that argument.

Psalm 98:9

"let them sing before the LORD, for he comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples with equity."

See, He is coming to judge the EARTH.

And, food for thought pertaining to prophecy, I find this very interesting. . You say there is no prophecy anymore, but by saying so is fulfilling prophecy !!!

2 Peter 3:4

"They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."

God bless you brother!

The Holy Spirit will lead us into truth! In Jesus Name, Amen

[Bluefinger]

Interesting, if this reflects the Jewish Nation and Jerusalem then what do you make of the two witnesses??

I'll explain that in full later in this post. I want to get to your next question first, if that's okay.

Also, looking at the trumpets in full, how do you interpret them to reflect Jerusalem and the Jewish Nation? To be fully honest here I am quite ignorant when it comes to prophecy, but looking at them, I just don't see what your implying.

I draw from the scheme produced in the Gospel narratives, particularly Matthew. The Gospel according to Matthew seemed focused on two issues: Proving that Jesus was the Messiah via fulfillment of prophecy and warning the disciples to not be misled into participating in the very Judaism that rejected Him and received a murderer (Barrabas) in His place.

Central to the scheme are the parables. Take these parable for example:

""What do you think? A man had two sons. And he went to the first and said, "Son, go and work in the vineyard today." And he answered, "I will not," but afterward he changed his mind and went. And he went to the other son and said the same. And he answered, "I go, sir," but did not go. Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the kingdom of God before you. For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. And even when you saw it, you did not afterward change your minds and believe him. "Hear another parable. There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and built a tower and leased it to tenants, and went into another country. When the season for fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants to get his fruit. And the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first. And they did the same to them. Finally he sent his son to them, saying, "They will respect my son." But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, "This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance." And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?" They said to him, "He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons." Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: "The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes"? Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him." When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them. And although they were seeking to arrest him, they feared the crowds, because they held him to be a prophet." (Matthew 21:28-46 ESV)

From these two parables, we can understand that the kingdom of God isn't what theologians have been telling us lately. In these parables, a belief central to early Judaism is prevalent. The kingdom of God was the fulfillment of Abrahamic promises. The Jews thought they were entitled to those promises. A quick recap: God promised Abraham that he would make his seed a great and countless nation. God also promised that He would bless all families of the earth through Abraham. He also promised to bless those that blessed Abraham and curse those who cursed him. Matthew 22:1-14's parable of the wedding feast shows that many of that generation of Jews that believed that they were God's chosen people because of their descendance from Abraham and their circumcision would be called but few of them were chosen for that kingdom. That was the great mystery that Paul spoke so often about. The Gentiles, whom knew nothing about God nor His commands, would get to be included in the Abrahamic Covenant, which was fulfilled in Christ. Now that I've covered that, I want to go over the two parables I quoted.

In the first, Jesus told that generation of Jewish leaders (and those that followed them) that sinners, prostitutes, and tax collectors would enter the kingdom of God before they would. This was fulfilled in the elect, the small remnant of Jews that God predestined to always believe in Jesus (John 7:6.)

In the second parable, Jesus said that the Jewish Nation would be stripped of their inheritance of the kingdom of God (including Jerusalem) and that it would be given over to those producing fruit. Those, in this case, are not individuals, but rather nations. Jesus said in Matthew 5:13, ""You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people's feet." Basically, Jesus was saying that, so long as His disciples were in a land, that land would be blessed. Once they leave that land, it would be better for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than it would be for that town (Matthew 11:20-24.). Around 66 CE, the disciples had a mass exodus from Judea, as Jesus called for in Matthew 24:15-22. The earth, or Judea in this case, lost its saltiness. Like when Sodom was destroyed only after Lot fled, so was Jerusalem destroyed only after the disciples fled. (Luke 17:28-30)

But the kingdom of God would be given over to those nations that produced fruit. As I stated in an earlier post, I'm of the opinion that John addressed the seven churches because they were the crowd that fled Judea. They were the remnant. They were the 144,000 sealed of the 12 tribes of Israel. Their purpose was to bring the Gospel to the Gentile nations, which bore great fruit, as shown in chapter 7 by the great and countless multitude from every nation, language, tribe, and people. The Romans would soon march in, per Matthew 22:10, and destroy the Jewish Nation and burn their city. The kingdom of God would then be given over to the Gentiles, as Paul defended in Romans 11. That would start the Times of the Gentiles, in which the Gentiles enjoyed the Abrahamic promises while the Jewish Nation suffered the curses of the Law (Deut. 28:15-68 ) that Jesus originally took on Himself (Galatians 3:13.) That would bring me to the Two Witnesses. I noticed that you responded on this subject later in the post, so I will delay my response on it a little longer.

And since our focus is on the book of Revelation, what do you make of the four beasts along with the Anti-Christ?

I have two things to say for that:

1) Revelation 13 didn't mention four beasts. Daniel 7 did.

2) Revelation 13, and pretty much the rest of the book, discusses what happens during the Times of the Gentiles. It builds up to how the two witnesses end up on the streets of Jerusalem at the end of the Times of the Gentiles. If you recall Romans 11:25-26, the fullness of the Gentiles would come when Israel's blindness is healed. So that likely points to Jerusalem being the last nation to receive Jesus. Between the time that Jerusalem is destroyed and she receives her king, the beast makes war against the saints and misleads many into worshiping the beast's image. To understand this, I think we need to look back at how ancient cultures viewed their kings.

In Daniel 2, Nebuchadnezzar sets up an image of himself to be worshipped. This was synonomous with allegiance to the king. Wherever his image was, so was the proclomation of his dominion. The statue of the king was an older version of a country's flag. When Jesus came, he took the throne (Matt. 28:18) with all power and authority in heaven and on earth. He then sent out His disciples to make disciples of all nations. Wherever the Church was set up, so was the image of Jesus; His kingdom's flag.

What happened throughout time is that the Chuch became Romanized and began to show itself as the dominion of a man other than Jesus. Some would call this antichrist, others would call him the false prophet.

What seem overwhelmingly important to your case, is that if it were true that Jesus had returned then where is the peace? Why is there still an confusion in his mere existence? Why would we go from every knee shall bow, and confess the name of the LORD, to pure "chaos."

Jesus gave His peace to His disciples, yet they died brutal deaths. He gave His peace to the elect, yet they were pursued by the Jews and hunted down by the Romans. His peace does not require peace on earth. For even Jesus said that He did not come to bring the peace that the Jews anticipated, but rather a sword against them.

Okay, I see you have addressed the two witnesses, but your really stretching the scriptures (IMO) that holds as much truth as to saying there are more than one two witnesses, which is far from the truth, especially when it is foretold God will give power to His TWO witnesses. (Whom mind you in Rev.11:8 will lie in the streets, is there a telling of this occurrence? Along with that the resurrection of them?)

We get much of the information of the two witnesses from Zechariah 4. Zechariah was shown a vision of two olive trees with branches extended out and pouring oil into a seven-headed candlestick. In Revelation 11, we are shown two olive trees and two candlesticks. In Zechariah 4, the two olive branches that pour oil into the temple were the two anointed ones: Joshua the High Priest and Zerubbabel the governor. These were commissioned to build the second temple. In Revelation 11:1-2, the temple is measured because it is soon to be destroyed. That would point to the mission of these two witnesses to build the temple of God, which Paul shows in Ephesians 2 is the Church, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ being the chief cornerstone.

So, one olive tree was a family of priests and the other was a family of kings. Back then, and many Jews may attest to this, moshiac (messiah) referred to either a priest or a king. As seen after the days of Antiochus IV Epiphanes and up until Antigonus, the office of high priest and king were combined; as is the case for Jesus.

"and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen." (Revelation 1:6 ESV)

"and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth." (Revelation 5:10 ESV)

"Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6 ESV)

The book of Revelation shows who the Two Witnesses are. They are the saints. They are priests and kings unto our God. The scope of their Witness is two-fold because they minister as priests and kings. Not because there are only two of them. The two candlesticks are likely two churches, since Revelation 1 already decoded that a candlestick was a church. We recall that Smyrna and Philadelphia were recognized for their faithfulness while the others were rebuked.

Though I do see a line of reasoning, I do not see one that aligns with scripture, it appears as if there is a lot that is being disregardful for instance what I have posted above, just a lot of imagination. And I don't mean that to try and put you down,. it is just my honest opinion. You see The prophecy of the Two witnesses as a spiritual deliverance, but this is not how the bible depicts it.

I don't think you understand my view at all. Are you sure you aren't just throwing me into a category you are used to? I wasn't saying that at all. And I think I've provided enough Scripture to support my view.

What we have here are two different bases to which we build our ground work on. Your view puts everything in the future without anything in Scripture telling you to do so. Futurism ignores the last two thousand years. It's that simple. And nothing in Scripture justifies that move. It is a commonly accepted flawed eschatology. It wasn't what the NT writers intended, but that is what has become of it.

And there is my view: That Revelation starts with addressing the original audience and builds up with prophecies that happen throughout history until the literal return of Christ. I don't speculate. I follow already established guidelines of thought, as was originally portrayed in the parables.

What do you say of the parables?

What is the kingdom of God that Jesus said would be taken from the Jews?

What city was destroyed in Matthew 22:10?

I never hear a futurist bring these things up because all they are focused on is seven speculative years in the future. Every politician is a candidate for the antichrist. Microchips are somehow supposed stop us from worshiping Jesus. And the speculation goes on and on. Anyone that disagrees is scolded as a preterist or ganged up on for looking outside the box. I'm not buying it. Futurism is not sufficient for the questions that the Gospel narratives bring up.

Also, I would appreciate you explaining your line of reasoning both scriptural and historically that the seals and trumpets refer to the Jewish Nation and Jerusalem. Please be specific.

Did you not already read my previous posts to firestormx? I went into detail and explained my line of reasoning.

Curious as to why you brought up Mathew 28:18? This pertains precisely to them, (the disciples) we get this implication in the verse following that.

Just as I figured. You asked me when I thought the nations were judged. I asked you when Jesus received power and authority. In Matthew 28:18, after He was resurrected, Jesus told the disciples that all authority in heaven and on earth had been given to him. If Jesus received all authority in heaven and on earth, which is shown in Revelation 5 where the Lamb takes the sealed scroll from God, and Matthew 21:42-45 shows that Jesus would judge the Jewish Nation by taking the kingdom of God from them and giving it to nations producing fruit, then it can be deduced that Christ judged the nations in 70 CE.

The reason why we disagree here is because many have not sourced their theology. What are your influences? Are they Greek based spirituality or Latin based legalism? Are they heavily influenced by modern theologians or based on ancient Syriac theology? Don't dismiss the importance of this because your culture becomes the lens through which you see the Gospel. And that is our source of friction. The New Testament may have been written in Greek, but the information came from Israelites who had no participation in Greek culture. That gives us a problem when we interpret the Gospel. Greek theologians tend to view the OT as types that were fulfilled in the NT. The Jews believed it was all one steady line of history through which God developed, defined, and fulfilled His Covenant with Abraham through his seed. The Gospel of the New Testament was that all nations, circumcised and uncircumcised, were called to be Abraham's seed of Promise through Jesus, the mediator of the Covenant.

Futurism says nothing about this. Because futurism is a modern invention that pays very little mind to the past. It treats the past as if everything isn't as important as those last seven years.

I bring up Mathew 25:31-46 because this is yet to be done, the Judgement of all nations has yet to be fulfilled. God Himself is to judge, and His presence of doing so is yet to be fulfilled.

I disagree. And I ask you to not jump to conclusions and skip reading my response. I asked earlier what the kingdom of God was; that which was taken from the first century Jews. I believe that, in the Gospel according to Matthew, the kingdom of heaven mentioned in Matthew 25:1 is the same as the kingdom of God mentioned in Matthew 21:42-45. This kingdom was what the Jews waited for. It was the fulfillment of the Abrahamic prophecies. And the Messiah was to bring these to fruition. Futurists would have you believe that Jesus didn't intend to bring those promises about until some distant seven year period. (Their interpretation of Daniel 9's seventy weeks are very wrong, BTW.) But Matthew 21:42-45 show that Jesus was going to take the kingdom of God away from the Jews and give it to the Gentiles. That means that the nations were judged. Those that produced fruit of righteousness and charity were given the kingdom of God while those who produced murder, envy and strife (the Jewish Nation) were cast out. That was the purpose of the parable of the talents. The Jewish Nation had very little and did not produce anything with what they had. Therefore, the kingdom of God was taken from them and given to those nations that produced great revenue (righteous deeds) for the kingdom.

Futurism leaves all of these parables alone, unless it is to overspirituatize them and take them out of their original context. And so when I ask a futurist what the kingdom of God is, likely he won't say that it is something that has been here for a while. And thus, they ignore Matthew 28:18, where Jesus says blatantly that He is the king and that His disciples would expand His dominion.

Revelation 1 shows John in exile and exiles that fled Judea living in seven cities in Asia-Minor. A persecution broke out against the Church and they brought the Gospel everywhere they went. And thus, when the Gentiles received the Word and produced deeds of righteousness, the kingdom of God had expanded and taken over the Gentiles. As I said earlier, in Middle Eastern culture, when a king set up his statue in the places he conquered, that meant that he had dominion over those areas. Greek theologians miss that fact because it is not an aspect of philosophy that they are privvy to.

I firmly agree with Firestom's response to you. And thank you for the clarification.

God bless you!

The Holy Spirit guide us all to truth, In Jesus Name, Amen

Looking forward to your reply!!

I want to ask you to put futurism on trial. Ask the hard questions. Do serious exegesis. Don't stretch or speculate. Let it says what it says.

Let's take Daniel 9:24-27 for example. Verse 24 says that it was directed to Daniel's people (the Jews) and their city (Jerusalem.) On who's authority do they get to say that the prince of the people to come is anyone other than the anointed one mentioned in verse 26? They say that the prophecy was meant about the Church. But it wasn't. And it wasn't meant for the far distant future, otherwise it would have mentioned Jerusalem's destruction to happen twice, not once. Therefore, they are wrong in assuming that the abomination that makes desolate and brings destruction of the temple is the antichrist. They are shamelessly wrong. Anyone that does a proper exegesis on the chapter can see that the seventy weeks were regarding a period of grace in which to fulfill everything mentioned in verse 24 before the destruction of the Jewish Nation. Earlier in the chapter, Daniel recognized that the Jews had not yet repented, even though the 70 years were coming to a close. Daniel knew that the curse mentioned in Deuteronomy 28:15-68 was much worse than 70 years. Fast forward to the generation that saw Jerusalem's destruction. They rejected their Messiah, as shown in verse 26. Jesus' troops were sent to destroy the city, as defended by Matthew 22:10. Verse 27 shows that the Messiah would confirm the Abrahamic Covenant with the Gentiles (the many). It would be put to an abrupt end when Jesus was crucified and it would be picked back up when the Jewish revolt happened. The Gentiles received the kingdom of God, as shown in Matthew 21:43 after the Jewish nation was destroyed.

That is the proper interpretation of the prophecy. Otherwise, Daniel wasn't shown an event in Covenantal History that would have been very important to know. And that should be enough justification to raise an eye-brow at the claims that futurists make.

I think that, if you do put futurism on trial, you will see that there are too many holes in that theory. The author John meant something when he said, "For the end is near." And he did not mean the end of all humanity, as futurists may suggest. He meant the end of the Jewish Nation and the old order of things. Christ was doing something new. He was fulfilling the Abrahamic Covenant by blessing all families of the earth; the remnant of Israel and the Gentiles.

[Bold Believer]

I was just reading about Rome's war on Judea in 66-70 CE. Something stood out to me that I now feel is a solid confirmation of what the fifth trumpet is:

During the seige that Vespasian laid on the city, he allowed many Jews to enter the city for the Passover but would not let them leave. This was to starve the city of water and resources so that the seige would end quicker. These were caught in the seige and starved to death. Josephus wrote that these poor souls would be found lying on the ground by the seditious and would beg for them to kill them. The seditious refused.

Now, an important piece to note: The 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel that were sealed were not harmed. Why? The remnant was told by Jesus' apostles to flee Jerusalem and not follow after false messiahs. Those that went to Jerusalem for Passover obviously followed the wrong teachers.

Jesus' disciples were sealed because they listened to and obeyed His teachings, causing them to abandon the Jewish Cause.

Again, I want to stress the Passover. During Moses' ministry, God sent Abadon, the destroying angel, to kill the firstborn of every family whose windows and doors were not covered by Lamb's blood. In the same way, those Jews who did not receive Jesus' teachings and salvation had went to Passover in Jerusalem only to be destroyed. The destroyer was Vespasian, the Roman king.

Thus, the fifth trumpet was accomplished during the seige of Jerusalem and is not for future fulfillment. The sixth trumpet, then, is obviously the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple as well as the slaughter of the Jewish Nation.

Bravo. Also, the five months of scorpions: Roman troops.

The War of Gog and Magog is in progress now, and the Last Day Parousia will follow it.

[Bluefinger]

When you start off your response by calling me 'shamelessly wrong,' it really discourages me from even looking at the rest of your post.

Just saying.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Bluefinger

[Bluefinger]

You are hilarious ., shamelessly wrong

Tell us when satan was locked up for the 1000 year period of time when satan was not able to deceive the nation?? Since death is thrown into the lake of fire after the 1000 years it will not be possible for anyone after that to be able to die , sin will be gone , no more will anyone have sin , the only people who will be living will be the born-again believers in Christ who are the family of God ,

I never said that the thousand years had come. If you stop throwing me in with the preterists and read my full articles, you'd realize that.

Again, my beliefs are that the seals and six trumpets were fulfilled in the first century. In between the sixth and seventh trumpet are the Times of the Gentiles, in which all peoples are gathered into God's kingdom, as shown in the parable of the wedding feast in Matthew 22:1-14; until The Lord comes to establish His kingdom on earth. You know, the Millennial reign.

Before the Fullness of the Gentiles comes in, the seven plagues will destroy the beasts of Revelation 13. Afterward, the seventh trumpet will occur. Christ will return, as shown in chapter 19 and set up His government on earth.

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this." (Isaiah 9:6, 7 ESV)

I do have proof. For one, history is on my side. I at least have something to interpret. You have speculation on your side, and wild imagination.

Second, Daniel 9:24-27 is about the Jews and Jerusalem BEFORE the Jewish Nation was scattered by the Romans in 70 CE. There is no reason to believe that Daniel skipped the second destruction of the temple to mention a third. Even the second destruction would have been important enough to elaborate. Daniel 9:24-27 describes the 490 extra years that God gave the Jewish Nation to bring in everlasting righteousness. Verse 27 shows that only the Messiah that was cut off in verse 26 actually does this, leaving the Jerusalem to face the curses of Deuteronomy 28:15-68.

Daniel 9 is not about the church or the antichrist. If you think it is, you are taking it out of its original context, robbing it from its original audience, and inserting your own eschatology into it when it was never intended to be there.

Let's revisit that discussion from Luke's perspective because you are missing something. I will bold what you are missing.

"Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." (Luke 21:23, 24 ESV)

The great tribulation was not for the Church. It was for the Jewish Nation. And there were to experience this tribulation until the Times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. In Romans 11:25-26, Paul says that the Jews would continue to stay blinded until the Fullness of the Gentiles comes in, which Christ has set His banner (the Church) among all peoples.

So, the tribulation has not ended. But Christ is ruling and has been since He resurrected, as shown in Matthew 28:18.

Your interpretation of Daniel 9:27-24 is skipping over the destruction of the Jewish Nation in 70 CE, assuming that the God didn't think it was important enough for Daniel to know. My better logic tells me different.

And I disagree on your interpretation of Matthew 24's declaration that it would be the worst tribulation. If you want to keep it in context, keep it with the rest of the discussion, meaning Jerusalem's destruction, which caused them that were in Judea to flee to the country.

As I said, I believe the Jewish Nation is still under tribulation, setting the scene for the prophecies in Zechariah 13-14.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree... generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

In the above verse when Jesus says "this generation shall not pass" He is saying the generation that sees all the things that he has described happen will be "the generation that shall not pass" not the generation that was living when he said it , Jesus was speaking about a future generation that will see all the things that he just spoke about including :

That was so helpful for the first century readers to understand? He meant that generation of Jews.

"So when Pilate saw that he was gaining nothing, but rather that a riot was beginning, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying, "I am innocent of this man's blood; see to it yourselves." And all the people answered, "His blood be on us and on our children!" (Matthew 27:24, 25 ESV)

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

He's talking about the Jewish War.

When you learn who the fig tree is you'll realize that it is the people and nation of Israel! that is reborn , Israel is the ONLY nation that was disbanneded for 2000+ years ....

Most of the Jewish people are still blind to the fact that Christ Jesus IS their Messiah , although there are some who have come to accept this fact , most in Israel still reject Jesus and follow rabbinical law and ignore the New Testament Law. Their blindness will disappear when Jesus returns soon to save the nation of Israel from destruction by the nations surrounding Israel who are intent on wiping Israel off the planet !

Agreed.

Your lack of willingness to acknowledge that Dan 9:27 has not yet happened as well s other prophecies have happened in modern day and not 2000 years ago is causing your lack of understanding Prophetic matters , you seem not to understand that if Dan 9:27 had already happened and if as you falsely claim that all nations have already been judged , then Jesus would be on earth ruling in His Kingdom and the Millennial Kingdom Reign of Jesus Christ would now be in action , but obviously it has not yet begun , so Yep it IS the Future to come!

Nope. You just fail to understand my interpretation. If you keep insisting on throwing me in with the preterist camp, you will keep insisting that my views line up with theirs. Daniel 9:27 shows Jesus confirming the Abrahamic Covenant with the Gentiles, putting an end to the high priesthood and destroying the second temple.

When regarding the words "Kingdom of God' the particular scripture context must be looked at , since there are scriptures that speak of the kingdom of God up in heaven , then there is the kingdom of God that is within a person , as in being part of the kingdom of God having their body being the Temple of the Holy Spirit and then there is the scriptures that speak of the kingdom of God on earth with Jesus the Christ Himself in physical form ruling on earth and walking on earth once again , ,

I think there is only one kingdom of God. Christ rules from heaven while the saints gather the nations for the 'wedding feast' and then He comes and rules on earth. It does not mean that the kingdom of God is not established yet.

You need to learn about taking scripture in the context in which it is written, consider that a person may own multiple cars and someone speaks of that persons car , it will be needed to know which car is being spoken of in order to know fully how to correctly apply what was said about the car , The same is with scripture , the specific context of which way the kingdom is being spoken of in order to know what is being said about it .

I understand what you are saying. But one must also understand how the Jews back then viewed the kingdom of God. They had been told that they were Abraham's promised seed. The kingdom of God was the fulfillment and zenith of all of God's promises, among which were to make his seed as uncountable as the stars, to bless all the families of the earth through his seed, and to bless those who bless him while cursing those who curse him.

The great New Testament mystery was that God was going to include the Gentiles in Abraham's promises, regardless of uncircumcision. This was the historical meaning of the kingdom of God. The Messiah was supposed to establish this kingdom and rule with righteousness, teaching peace. The Jews also believed that they would inherit this kingdom if they were righteous and would get to rule over their oppressors. That is why they had such a disdain for the Gentiles. They wanted to rule them. But we find that their oppressors ruled over them and were given the kingdom.

There will never be a time when the end of life comes to all of humanity , THEE END Times . or End of Days , End of the Age all mean , the end of a time period when mankind determines which church or religion they will attend , the Church Age is what ends simply because the LORD GOD , Christ Himself will be physically on earth ruling the entire earth judging all nations ,

Agreed.

[Bluefinger]

You are showing that you do exactly what the Israelites did and do regarding the scriptures, even though the entirety of the description about the coming messiah would be born to a virgin and the details of his life and that the messiah would die on a cross pierced with spear , not have his legs broken, cast lots for his clothes, raise from the dead ......they like you chose to avoid and ignore scriptures that spoke things that they did not want to believe.

I disagree. The Israelites were blinded by God to accomplish these purposes. But we, who are in Christ, are not blinded.

What we have is an eschatalogical arrogance. The "I'm right and you are lost" scenario. We have a problem with division because eschatology is a branch of theology, and theology is what separates believers, unfortunately.

And that is what I meant by shamelessly wrong. I didn't mean it as an insult. I meant is as a criticism of a system that isn't even defined in Scripture.

My question is this: "If futurism was so concrete of an interpretation, why was it not developed for the first fifteen centuries of Christian history?"

Also, "Why was it not fully laid out in the first century by the apostles? Why would Jesus want us to be confused about the details of His return?"

These are questions that led me away from futurism and to use the books themselves, rather than my speculations, to interpret eschatology. That is why I've been repeating over and over again that we must go back to the exegesis of the Gospel narratives. That is why we must go back not only to the language that the New Testament was written (Greek, as far as we can tell), but also to the culture in which it was written (Jewish culture.)

I've been pointing out that your interpretation is not one based the original culture and that futurism does not communicate the the original audience. Therefore, futurism is an incorrect eschatology. I'm not going to ostrasize you for it though.

So when their messiah had come ; because he did not come as Mighty God, but as a sacrificial lamb that would die for them ,they chose not to believe ,.Even though the scriptures told them that they would hang their messiah and kill him they chose not to accept what the Holy scriptures taught and chose to believe what they preffered and ignore what the LORD had told them would take place.

The New Testament is explicit about the fact that Israel was blinded that God had predestined a remnant to follow Christ. Israel was blinded so that the remnant would be chased out so that they could bring the Covenant to the Gentiles. So, while they did choose not to accept what the Scriptures taught, it was also because they were blinded for the purpose of saving all nations and bringing them into the Abrahamic Covenant, as God promised. This is explicitly stated over and over again in the New Testament.

You object to people thinking your interpreation being likend unto a preterist but you do the same with views you don't understand and don't even try to really understand why your interpretations are flawed and wrong.

If you wouldn't ostrasize me for not being a futurist and stop calling me a preterist (showing that you're not really listening), I wouldn't object so strongly.

No one ever said any microchip would stop people from worshiping Jesus, again you simply do not understand what you read here , you simply have a difficulty in correct interpretations

Revelation 13 says that anyone who takes the mark of the beast would be cast into the Lake of Fire, right? Jesus said that those that deny Him before men will be denied by Him in the Father's presence. So, yes, the Mark of the Beast is a rejection or substitution of Jesus. A microchip, as we have both established, cannot force us to deny Jesus.

Therefore, taking the microchip implant is not taking the Mark of the Beast. This is another strong argument against most modern futurist interpretations.

The original audience would have understood what John was talking about. To them it was given to understand the parables. Jesus did not hide these things from His disciples. Therefore, we MUST understand their history and culture in order to properly interpret eschatology. Futurism does not do that.

That is not judging the nations , it is not even judging Israel but simply saying that because the Jews are rejecting the true King & messiah that the kingdom is handed over to people that will receive Christ as the true King that He is, Jesus is judge of all nations and will judge all nations when he returns as KING of KINGS ! Ruling ALL nations on earth

You demonstrate that you think it is fine and dandy to say other people are shamelessly wrong , but yet to take offence when someone puts it back on your plate If you can't take it don't dish it out with your double standard ways

I can handle it. I didn't come into this discussion looking to discredit other eschatologists, nor speculating. I took the criticism and focused on it. We simply had to discuss this because you could not be satisfied in just understanding my interpretation but came in insisting that I was wrong and you were right. Discussions shut down at that point. Shamelessly wrong. I have not felt love or genuine brotherhood from your responses, even from the get go. Had this been a debate, the gloves would come off. But I never intended it to be a debate.

Jesus has stated many times that he will be taken out of this world and go to be in heaven from where he came from originally and at a later time return to earth , Matthew 24 is a conversation Jesus is having with his followers and they ask : what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

The asking of what is the sign of His coming is inquiring when will Jesus return ,Christs 2nd coming to earth

The end of the Age , is the end of the Church Age

I disagree. Again, why would Jesus skip over the destruction of the Jewish Nation in the first century to talk about an eschatology far into the future? That goes back to what I've been saying: Our culture is ignorant of the culture of the original audience, as well as to the history. Something major happened in the first century.

How do the apostles go from referencing their culture to having Greek and Latin Church fathers arguing about the transcendence of the soul and the eternal destination of the soul as being theological basic for Orthodoxy? Evidently, something really big errupted in the Jewish culture in the first century. It was the destruction of the Jewish Nation; something that Jesus or the apostles would have said a great deal about.

which began with Christ telling Peter that with Peter; Christs Church will start ,with the Born-again believers that accept Christ as personal Lord and savoir of the world ,,,the end of the age happens upon Jesus return and establishes HIS Kingdom which will never end , this begins the 1000 years that satan is locked up in prison not able to deceive the nations .

I've said it once and several times, the Times of the Gentiles, as specified in Luke 21:20 and Romans 11:25-26, occurred at the end of the age. The Age of the Jewish Nation came to an end and the Age of the Gentiles began. Matthew 22:1-14 shows that, after Jerusalem's destruction, the disciples would invited all nations into the kingdom of God, bringing both good and bad people into the kingdom. By doing this, the nations were subjected to the authority and dominion of Christ. Only at the Fullness of the Gentiles does Christ return to reward the saints and destroy the beast. That does not mean that, at any time, He can't judge the nations.

To illustrate the message ....If you were talking with friends about your future and you start talking about what school you plan to attend and what your will study , where you will live and various other things and this was all transcribed on paper and at a later date someone decides to edit out some things so they can make it say what they want it to say ,

It manipulates the facts of intent and if you were around in the discussion where someone claims you meant something you did not mean or say , you would speak up and repeat what you had said previously in full so what you meant is revealed and not what someone imposed on what you said ..

I get what you are saying. I just think that your theology isn't complete. If there are three sides to theology (Hebrew, Greek, and Latin), and you only concern yourself with the development of Greek and Latin, how can you properly understand what the prophecies meant? The earliest disciples, having no or little influence from Greek or Latin philosophy and culture, understood the prophecies just well. Our culture, therefore, is at a disadvantage. We certainly can't ostracize eschatologists when we ourselves are disadvantaged like that.

In and during the exact same conversation that Jesus tells us about "when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place”

The point that I've been making this entire time is that Jesus wasn't quoting Daniel to us. The writer of the Gospel of Matthew was directing it to the first century disciples that were being pressured by their Jewish friends and family to keep participating their generation's Jewish culture. It wasn't written to Greek, Latin, Germanic, Asia, Brazilian, or any other culture. It was written to the first disciples, whom were originally Jews.

You seek to find any event in history that you can squeeze into your theory to make it fit, but the major flaw is that it is in oppostion with the rest of the Holy scriptures , so you choose to believe your seriously flawed theory and ignore what scripture actually says

Putting the accurate truth of what Jesus says will happen in the future shows us truth that Daniel 9:27 occurs a very short time before Jesus is seen coming to earth, the time when there is more flesh dying than any other time in the history of mankind ;and because Jesus will rule on earth , it will never happen again

You're saying that futurism is accurate? Are you sure you don't want to correct that statement?

As I've said, I still maintain, the book of Revelation was written to two different audiences: The remnant (144,000; the first disciples, Ephesians 1:12, John 17:6), and those that came to believe because of their word, the Gentile saints.

[gdemoss]

My question is this: "If futurism was so concrete of an interpretation, why was it not developed for the first fifteen centuries of Christian history?"

I enjoy reading your posts. The simple answer to this question is that revelation is progressive in nature. There is a multitude of reason for why God hides things in his word and only reveals them to whom he will, when he will. He also reveals more to some in some cases than others and lets them know that they are not to share it with others. John was one with the seven thunders. Paul was another when caught up to the third heaven. I have been shown that most of what you write concerning what happened in history is correct but that the spiritual repeat of these events is going on all around us today. Thanks for taking the time to post.

[Bluefinger]

My question is this: "If futurism was so concrete of an interpretation, why was it not developed for the first fifteen centuries of Christian history?"

I enjoy reading your posts. The simple answer to this question is that revelation is progressive in nature.

Hi moss. Thanks for chiming in.

Where do you get that belief from? I hate to sound like a fundy, but can you show me what made you come to that conclusion?

"But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness." (1 Thessalonians 5:4, 5 ESV)

Surely futurists can't say that revelation is progressive in nature, because futurists claim that everything happens in a seven-year timespan. And why announce ahead of time what is to come and give signs of its coming if it is intended to only be understood progressively?

There is a multitude of reason for why God hides things in his word and only reveals them to whom he will, when he will. He also reveals more to some in some cases than others and lets them know that they are not to share it with others. John was one with the seven thunders. Paul was another when caught up to the third heaven. I have been shown that most of what you write concerning what happened in history is correct but that the spiritual repeat of these events is going on all around us today. Thanks for taking the time to post.

I've been wondering about spiritual 'repeats,' simply because two ages are addressed in Revelation: The passing age (the Times of the Jews) and the age that was coming (the Times of the Gentiles.) I'm still convinced, though that, everything from chapter 12 until chapter 19 has to do with the Times of the Gentiles, while everything from chapters 4 to 11 have to do with the passing age.

[gdemoss]

My question is this: "If futurism was so concrete of an interpretation, why was it not developed for the first fifteen centuries of Christian history?"

I enjoy reading your posts. The simple answer to this question is that revelation is progressive in nature.

Hi moss. Thanks for chiming in.

Where do you get that belief from? I hate to sound like a fundy, but can you show me what made you come to that conclusion?

"But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness." (1 Thessalonians 5:4, 5 ESV)

Surely futurists can't say that revelation is progressive in nature, because futurists claim that everything happens in a seven-year timespan. And why announce ahead of time what is to come and give signs of its coming if it is intended to only be understood progressively?

There is a multitude of reason for why God hides things in his word and only reveals them to whom he will, when he will. He also reveals more to some in some cases than others and lets them know that they are not to share it with others. John was one with the seven thunders. Paul was another when caught up to the third heaven. I have been shown that most of what you write concerning what happened in history is correct but that the spiritual repeat of these events is going on all around us today. Thanks for taking the time to post.

I've been wondering about spiritual 'repeats,' simply because two ages are addressed in Revelation: The passing age (the Times of the Jews) and the age that was coming (the Times of the Gentiles.) I'm still convinced, though that, everything from chapter 12 until chapter 19 has to do with the Times of the Gentiles, while everything from chapters 4 to 11 have to do with the passing age.

We probably ought to begin with a handshake that removes the labels. Your no preterist and I am no futurist. We each have a developing position that God is working diligently to sharpen until we can see clearly, which is directly related to our obedience and maturity level. Our best efforts should cause us to sharpen one another.

Where did I develop the concept of progressive revelation? My time spent in the Holy Mount with our Lord. It is an overall view of the bible when I step back and look at the entire work from beginning to end. Each one of us alone receives revelation in a progressive manner but at the same time I see it through the whole. The only way God could bring in everlasting righteousness was to hide his son and reveal him in the fullness of time after he had perfectly set the stage for the events to pass. The same is true for many things. Moses wore a veil over his face so that the Israelites could not see to the end of that which would be abolished. God did these things and yet you believe that he no longer is holding any aces up his sleeve? Do you know what the seven thunders uttered? Even David believed revelation was progressive.

Psa 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.

I have developed many such concepts in my time spent with the Lord. He has been a faithful Father who has taught me as a son to understand what he is doing as he is doing it so that I can serve him to the best of my ability everyday. I live my life in such a way that I simply present my body as a living sacrifice and ask him to dwell in me and work through me to accomplish all his will that he wants to do in me. I have a hard time giving what I have unto others because most that I know are caught up in living and enjoying the things of this world and cannot receive. I don't say this to boast in anyway as it was God who broke me so that I would have no choice but to offer myself unto him. My life was horrible. He poured out his grace upon me and I simply responded to it.

What he taught me was that that which is natural always comes first followed by that which is spiritual in nature. The so called 'spiritual repeats' that your wondering about might be along these lines. The first man Adam followed by the Last Adam, the Lord from heaven. The natural nation of Israel as a people of God followed by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon all flesh to the Jew first and unto the Gentile as a people of God worldwide. There was flood that destroyed the world that was natural which will be followed by a spiritual flood known as the war in heaven where a third of an innumerable company of angels will be cast out of heaven permanently. The seven churches in Asia that John wrote too received that which was coming unto them in the beginning of the age which will be followed by the spiritual cleansing of the church here in the near future as the spiritual opening of the seals takes place. Hence why it is said, let him who has ears to hear hear what the Spirit says unto the churches.

Everyday brings new revelation to me from the Lord. I begin to see clearer and clearer what is happening. The first seal has had its spiritual fulfillment. The beast and the dragon are with us. The false prophet is close to being in place. Elijah is near unto death ready to be taken away in the fiery chariot and whirlwind. Hang in there as it is going to be a bumpy ride but remember to keep in mind what he said "be of good cheer, it is I". I pray you see Elijah taken away and that you receive a double portion of that Spirit.

Bed time. Peace unto you in Christ Jesus the Lord.

[Bluefinger]

As I point out as you sayi ng that Jesus had judged the nations in Matt 21 , obviously he did not , he was judged and put to death , and as stated before with Jesus , his reference to the kingdom is His kingdom in which he stated that you must be born again in order to enter into it , you frequently misunderstand the context of what scripture says .

I don't misunderstand the context of the Scripture. That is the one thing I keep going back to. My argument is that you are using an evolved theology based on Greek and Latin thinking. Matthew 24, though it was written in Greek, was written by an Israelite to other Israelites who had walked away from Judaism, their family, friends, and entire society to partake in Christ's kingdom.

So, to be clear, your understanding of Matthew 24 isn't the earliest understanding. It is an evolution of 2,000 years of Greek and Latin theology. I've been trying to put the pieces back together of what happened in the Church just before Rome went to war with Judea. Scripture says very little. But, if our culture is left out of our interpretations and we get back to the original audiences, we can build a decent picture of what happened. I don't see you doing that. What I see instead is that you aren't even reconstructing the past to find out what happened. It doesn't seem to matter to you. You seem to be under the impression that Jesus spoke about the abomination of desolation to His first disciples so that Christians 2,000 years in the future would know about it. That seems far-fetched to me. Which is why I abandoned that interpretation and decided to go back and see where things got confusing. Likely, the historical event around that time will do most of the explaining.

And that is my argument about the abomination of desolation. It was from Jewish Scripture about something that the Jews would understand better than anyone and that they could see. Now I will one more time attempt to prove that Jesus spoke about the Abomination of Desolation to His first disciples.

In Matthew 24, the Olivet Discourse is heavily latent with Jewish culture and history. In Luke 21, we see the same discussion, but worded differently. Let's take a look:

"And while some were speaking of the temple, how it was adorned with noble stones and offerings, he said, "As for these things that you see, the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down." And they asked him, "Teacher, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?" And he said, "See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, "I am he!" and, "The time is at hand!" Do not go after them. And when you hear of wars and tumults, do not be terrified, for these things must first take place, but the end will not be at once." Then he said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake. This will be your opportunity to bear witness. Settle it therefore in your minds not to meditate beforehand how to answer, for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict. You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death. You will be hated by all for my name's sake. But not a hair of your head will perish. By your endurance you will gain your lives. "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. "And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near." (Luke 21:5-28 ESV)

I've bolded some parts I wanted you to really look at.

Matthew 24 doesn't say for them to look for the Abomination of Desolation. Why? Because the Jews understood what that meant. Matthew 24 also doesn't specify that the tribulation would be against 'this' people, the Jews. And when Jesus said that, if the tribulation had not been cut short that no flesh would have survived, He meant no flesh among the Jews. The elect He was talking about were His first disciples (see Ephesians 1:12, Romans 11:5, and John 17:6.)

Your thinking isn't the original thinking so you are adding to what the Scripture says. Nothing against you. I'm just letting you know.

Jesus says that anyone who accepts the mark of the beast , forfeits the priveledge to enter the kingdon and will never be allowed in and will be cast into the lake of fire .......

the point is that it means that a person will be put on the spot to either acceopt Jesus or accept satan , the microchip will not make that choice for anyone , and at this point the chip at this time is only a device that can fulfill that prophecy ,

And it doesn't sound far-fetched to you? It does to me. Deuteronomy 6:8 and 11:18 show what the Mark of the Beast is.

the use of the term futurism is not a term I use as it can me different things to different people , You make it a catagory as in like preterism that has a predefined interpretation ......

speaking of things that will happen in the future because they have not yet happened is not a taught predefined doctrine such as preterism is

I never treated mine like it was predefined, but you seem to think it fit to say it was. Let's play fair then.

Point make is clear , you must accept the ENTIRE conversation that Jesus had before you will un derstand what he meant, Taking a verse or two and ignoring the rest of it is where you gom wrong, Jesus di not speak to people that were not present unto him , he spoke to people about events that would come and there are many times he spoke about] things that would come to pass but not in biblical days .. when you read ALL what Jesus said to answer the questions . What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age ... it is abundantly clear that he is talking about a future time and states "

What I've been saying is that you are doing just that. I'm working my way through history to find the proper fulfillment in conjunction with the original audience's cultural understanding without adding my own culture's theology to it.

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet,standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand

NOTICE that it is captioned with "whoever reads, let him understand" the reason is to makew sure that the reader does not misunderstand and think that Jesus was saying that the people alive at that time would see this event

I agree. The original audience were Israelites. They saw it and understood what it meant. We don't. That is my point.

the fact is that Jesus connects Daniel 9:27 to his 2nd coming ....very very close together , and as said before because this creates a huge problem for your theory you will not accept the entire context of how Jesus was answering the questions of what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age.

He does not. Otherwise, He would not have said 'immediately after the tribulation of those days..." And what does Luke 21 say instead?

"For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

The tribulation occurred against the Jews. And Jerusalem is still trampled underfoot by the Gentiles. When the Fullness of Gentiles, as spoke of in Romans 11:25, occurs, then the tribulation against the Jews will end. Revelation 11 details that quite well.