Molinism

[ByFaithAlone]

So a lot of people talk about Calvinism vs. Arminianism but what about the other doctrines that exist. Some of them are not that well known but one that is gaining a large amount of popularity thanks to the support of famous Christian apologists William Lane Craig and Alvin Plantinga is Molinism. I will give a brief background on the subject before opening it up to discussion. Molinism was a term coined to describe a particular view of compatibilism of God's providence and free will held by a Jesuit theologian Luis de Molina. It tries to deal with some of the philosophical problems with what Molina considered the extremes (Calvinism and Arminianism).

Molinism asserts the following. God has three types of knowledge. The first is natural knowledge (knowledge of self, what is necessary) which is accepted by most Christians. The last is God's free knowledge (knowledge of the actuality of the world or the ontology of the world). Molina posits a middle knowledge which is not temporally prior to the free knowledge per se as God would exist outside of space and time but is called middle knowledge as it holds that God would, from his natural knowledge of necessary truths know what a creature would freely choose to do under a given set of circumstances. This allows for a degree of providence but also allows for free creatures to exist at the same time. Thus, the free will defense remains valid as an explanation for actual evil in the world and several philosophical ideas are satisfied. Thus, it is very appealing to philosophers.

Here is the wiki page if you want more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molinism

So... what are your thoughts. Is this heresy, interesting or are you just confused at this point? :-)

[Guest]

As I See It, It's Simple

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Come

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:16-17

Or Not

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36

And What Does Philosophy

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Colossians 2:8

Have To Do With Truth Anyway?

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

[ByFaithAlone]

And What Does Philosophy

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Colossians 2:8

Have To Do With Truth Anyway?

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

The claim that objective truths exist is in itself a philosophical statement so I would say philosophy has everything to do with the objective truths we desire to learn through theology.

Definition: Philosophy is the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence.

[xero]

Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure"

It isnt even the fact that God is omniscient which is the cause for Him to know everything. God declared all that would be in the end from the beginning.

God is the cause of all things:

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

God is in control of all:

Romans 9:19 "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"

We dont have free will. There is the will of the Father and weve disobeyed. Sin isnt a result of free will. Sin is the result of disobedience.

There is no consequence for a freedom and we are slaves to sin if not to Christ so either way theres a master.

The wisdom of this world is folly.

[Qnts2]

In the past, I listened to the arguments and scriptures presented by Calvinists and Arminians. I then compared them to scripture and found that there were verses which support both and scripture which goes counter to both.

In trying to reconcile both sets of scripture, I did come up with a possibility which is very similar to Molinism. Basically, God is sovereign and man has free will, so for God to accomplish His will while keeping man's free will, God must foreknow how people would react to varying situations. With Gods sovereignty and Gods foreknowledge, God can direct the circumstances to accomplish mans actions based on Gods desires.

While that would make sense to me, I also know God does not tell us His thoughts prior to creation. And both Calvinism, Arminianism, and Molinism must make assumptions as to how God thought prior to creation and planned to accomplish His desires. He did tell us He knew man would fall, so He pre-planned Jesus to die before the foundation of the world, and that He knew us and planned what we would be called to do before the foundation of the world.

So, I believe we will not truly know, until we see Him face to face.

[Guest]

And What Does Philosophy

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Colossians 2:8

Have To Do With Truth Anyway?

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

The claim that objective truths exist is in itself a philosophical statement so I would say philosophy has everything to do with the objective truths we desire to learn through theology.

Definition: Philosophy is the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence.

Fundamental Knowledge Is The Study Of God And Of His Words

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. Hosea 6:6

It's What's For Dinner

And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. Luke 4:4

In The House

I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence, And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth. Isaiah 62:6-7

Of Prayer

And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? Luke 18:7-8

~

Looking For Love

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:2

In All The Wrong Places

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah 1:18

Men Walk And Talk Their Way To Perdition

There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. Psalms 16:25

The people, movements, schools of thought and philosophical traditions that have constituted American Philosophy have been varied and often at odds with each other. Different concerns and themes have waxed or waned at different times. For instance, the analysis of language was important throughout much of the twentieth century, but of very little concern before then, while the relation between philosophy and religion, of great significance early in American Philosophy, paled in importance during much of the twentieth century. Despite having no core of defining features, American Philosophy can nevertheless be seen as both reflecting and shaping collective American identity over the history of the nation. http://www.iep.utm.edu/american/

Hum....

Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 2 Timothy 3:7

~

Objective Truth Always Points To Jesus Christ And Him Crucified

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Revelation 1:5

And Asks, "What Are You Going To Do About Him"

O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him. Psalms 34:8

And Then There Is The Big Book Of Jesus

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160

The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers.

Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions immutable.

Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy.

It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.

It is the traveler's map, the pilgrim's staff, the pilot's compass, the soldier's sword, and the Christian's charter.

Here Paradise is restored, Heaven opened, and the gates of hell disclosed.

Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end.

It should fill the memory, rule the heart and guide the feet.

Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully.

It is a mine of wealth, a Paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure.

It is given to you in life, will be open in the judgment, and be remembered forever.

It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and condemns all who trifle with its holy precepts.

From The Front Of My Gideon New Testament

Try Posting That Foundational Nugget Of Truth Into Your Upper Division "Rational" Philosophy Class

Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Psalms 119:11

And Than Listen To The Heartbeat Of Men's Thoughts Toward His Creator, Our LORD

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. Jeremiah 17:9-10

And Is It Really Any Great Surprise That Sinner Men Hate God

Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. Jeremiah 17:5

After All, Most Will Not Trade Their Sins For Jesus

Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is. Jeremiah 17:7

Nor Will They Follow Him

And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Mark 8:34

Home

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. John 14:1-3

~

Thank You Dear Brother For Your Thoughts On God's Word

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Colossians 2:8

Leading To The Desires Of Sinners

Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.

Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.

But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. Proverbs 8:33-36

And The Grace Of God

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

~

Now also when I am old and grayheaded, O God, forsake me not; until I have shewed thy strength unto this generation, and thy power to every one that is to come. Psalms 71:18

[ByFaithAlone]

Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure"

It isnt even the fact that God is omniscient which is the cause for Him to know everything. God declared all that would be in the end from the beginning.

God is the cause of all things:

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

God is in control of all:

Romans 9:19 "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"

We dont have free will. There is the will of the Father and weve disobeyed. Sin isnt a result of free will. Sin is the result of disobedience.

There is no consequence for a freedom and we are slaves to sin if not to Christ so either way theres a master.

The wisdom of this world is folly.

Now this is a view I haven't seen in awhile. You truly believe in a hard determinism God? This seems strange to me.

I would outline a few problems with this position below:

Firstly, this statement: "We dont have free will. There is the will of the Father and weve disobeyed. Sin isnt a result of free will. Sin is the result of disobedience."

This is a contradictory statement. If we disobey the will of the Father we have gone against his will thus leaving us with free will. This means that your statement does not support your own idea of a deterministic God. The act of disobeying indicates we have free will in ourselves and therefore hard determinism cannot be true.

Secondly, if hard determinism were true there would be no just basis for condemnation as we would have no other choice but to obey the will of God. Thus, God would not be justified in sending anyone to hell as he would have determined the previous actions long before hand.

I would then conclude that your deterministic view of God is philosophically bankrupt. I would suggest that instead you hold a compatibilist view in which free will and determinism can coexist in some form. Such a view would be held by a variety of philosophers such as Calvin, Molina and even Arminius to some extent.

All of the verses you quote are perfectly in line with what Molinism teaches as a Christian philosophy in which both totally free creatures and God's foreknowledge can exist.

In the past, I listened to the arguments and scriptures presented by Calvinists and Arminians. I then compared them to scripture and found that there were verses which support both and scripture which goes counter to both.

In trying to reconcile both sets of scripture, I did come up with a possibility which is very similar to Molinism. Basically, God is sovereign and man has free will, so for God to accomplish His will while keeping man's free will, God must foreknow how people would react to varying situations. With Gods sovereignty and Gods foreknowledge, God can direct the circumstances to accomplish mans actions based on Gods desires.

While that would make sense to me, I also know God does not tell us His thoughts prior to creation. And both Calvinism, Arminianism, and Molinism must make assumptions as to how God thought prior to creation and planned to accomplish His desires. He did tell us He knew man would fall, so He pre-planned Jesus to die before the foundation of the world, and that He knew us and planned what we would be called to do before the foundation of the world.

So, I believe we will not truly know, until we see Him face to face.

I agree with you that we do not know our Creator's thoughts before creation (if we can even say there is such a "time before spacetime") and thus it is difficult to know what philosophy is correct. However, I would also say that some views are simply not well founded while others (such as Molinism in my opinion) seem to make a bit more sense from what we know of God.

[Guest]

..... I would also say that some views are simply not well founded while others (such as Molinism in my opinion) seem to make a bit more sense from what we know of God.

For there is no respect of persons with God. Romans 2:11

The problems here are multifaceted. First, it means that God looks into the future to see what people will do and saves them based on their choices. Therefore, God reacts to man's choices and God saves a person based on some quality (the ability to make a right choice) that the person possesses. But this is showing partiality (favoring one person over another based on a quality in/of that person), something that God condemns (Romans 2:11). Also, Molinism does not answer why one person chooses God and another does not, when it is God who makes the person and puts him in that place and time. In other words, what is it about the human free will that God has made that enables him to choose God or not? Just saying it is up to the individual doesn't answer the question. The hard-core Molinist cannot answer this question adequately. http://carm.org/what-molinism

[ByFaithAlone]

The problems here are multifaceted. First, it means that God looks into the future to see what people will do and saves them based on their choices. Therefore, God reacts to man's choices and God saves a person based on some quality (the ability to make a right choice) that the person possesses.

This is a misrepresentation of Molinism. God does not "look into the future" from the Molinist perspective but rather he actualizes a world (from all possible worlds) in which some people will freely choose him. Why he actualizes this world is not because of our choices in the "future" but because he wants to actualize this particular possible world. God therefore does not choose someone based on some quality but rather he actualizes a world in which people choose him. In the Molinist perspective, God is still the one in control not the human as God has to actualize the world for the human to exist in the first place.

[Guest]

.... This is a misrepresentation of Molinism....

Representing

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

God

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:16-17

~

But

Yea, hath God said, Genesis 3:1(c )

Man

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Colossians 2:8

~

So Beloved One Will Either Believe God

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: John 3:35-36(a)

Or One Will Not

and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36(b)

Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe