Passover and the Lord's supper communion

[Qnts2]

The Poetry of Jesus at the Last Supper

 

At the last supper, Jesus creates a Hebrew poem by rhyming “body” and “vine” and rhyming “atonement” and “fruit.”

 

Matthew 26:26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and, giving it to the disciples, said, “Take, eat; this is my body {“Body” (גופי)}.” 27 Then he took a cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness {“Atonement” (לכפרת)} of sins. 29 From now on, I tell you, I will never drink of this fruit {“Fruit” (פרי)} of the vine {“Vine” (הגפן)} until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” [The Passion: The Poetry of God]

 

Body and Vine are Hebrew puns for each other

“Body” (גופי)

“Vine” (הגפן)

 

Atonement and Fruit are Hebrew puns for each other

“Atonement” (לכפרת)

“Fruit” (פרי)

 

J. Clontz – Editor of The Comprehensive New Testament

 

I disagree.

 

I am not convinced that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew, but even if it was, the Hebrew words for body and vine or atonement and fruit do not rhyme.

[clontzjm]

 

The Poetry of Jesus at the Last Supper

 

At the last supper, Jesus creates a Hebrew poem by rhyming “body” and “vine” and rhyming “atonement” and “fruit.”

 

Matthew 26:26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and, giving it to the disciples, said, “Take, eat; this is my body {“Body” (גופי)}.” 27 Then he took a cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness {“Atonement” (לכפרת)} of sins. 29 From now on, I tell you, I will never drink of this fruit {“Fruit” (פרי)} of the vine {“Vine” (הגפן)} until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” [The Passion: The Poetry of God]

 

Body and Vine are Hebrew puns for each other

“Body” (גופי)

“Vine” (הגפן)

 

Atonement and Fruit are Hebrew puns for each other

“Atonement” (לכפרת)

“Fruit” (פרי)

 

J. Clontz – Editor of The Comprehensive New Testament

 

I disagree.

 

I am not convinced that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew, but even if it was, the Hebrew words for body and vine or atonement and fruit do not rhyme.

 

Hello Qnts2,

 

As you are probably aware Hebrew rhymes or puns are formed by re-arranging (turning) the letters in one word to form another word or letters are added to one word to form the a new word.

 

Often there is a spiritual link or meaning behind the pun. For instance,

“Body” (גופי)

“Vine” (הגפן)

 

Jesus stated in John chapter 15 that he was the true vine. At the last supper, the pun forms a spritual link between the body of Jesus and the true vine - hence the wine at the last supper is from a vine and is spiritually linked to the blood from his body. The pun is formed by the use of the gimmel and pe letters in both words.

 

In the second pun,

“Atonement” (לכפרת)

“Fruit” (פרי)

 

Throughout the gospels (Matthew ch 3,12,21,etc.), John the Baptist and Jesus discuss "bearing fruit" and the connection to bearing fruit and a person's relationship to God. The pun is formed by the use of the pe and resh letters in both words. This particular pun is part of a larger rhyme in the last supper passage that employs:

“Peter” (פיטרוש)

“Deny” (תכפור)

[Qnts2]

 

 

The Poetry of Jesus at the Last Supper

 

At the last supper, Jesus creates a Hebrew poem by rhyming “body” and “vine” and rhyming “atonement” and “fruit.”

 

Matthew 26:26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and, giving it to the disciples, said, “Take, eat; this is my body {“Body” (גופי)}.” 27 Then he took a cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness {“Atonement” (לכפרת)} of sins. 29 From now on, I tell you, I will never drink of this fruit {“Fruit” (פרי)} of the vine {“Vine” (הגפן)} until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” [The Passion: The Poetry of God]

 

Body and Vine are Hebrew puns for each other

“Body” (גופי)

“Vine” (הגפן)

 

Atonement and Fruit are Hebrew puns for each other

“Atonement” (לכפרת)

“Fruit” (פרי)

 

J. Clontz – Editor of The Comprehensive New Testament

 

I disagree.

 

I am not convinced that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew, but even if it was, the Hebrew words for body and vine or atonement and fruit do not rhyme.

 

Hello Qnts2,

 

As you are probably aware Hebrew rhymes or puns are formed by re-arranging (turning) the letters in one word to form another word or letters are added to one word to form the a new word.

 

Often there is a spiritual link or meaning behind the pun. For instance,

“Body” (גופי)

“Vine” (הגפן)

 

Jesus stated in John chapter 15 that he was the true vine. At the last supper, the pun forms a spritual link between the body of Jesus and the true vine - hence the wine at the last supper is from a vine and is spiritually linked to the blood from his body. The pun is formed by the use of the gimmel and pe letters in both words.

 

In the second pun,

“Atonement” (לכפרת)

“Fruit” (פרי)

 

Throughout the gospels (Matthew ch 3,12,21,etc.), John the Baptist and Jesus discuss "bearing fruit" and the connection to bearing fruit and a person's relationship to God. The pun is formed by the use of the pe and resh letters in both words. This particular pun is part of a larger rhyme in the last supper passage that employs:

“Peter” (פיטרוש)

“Deny” (תכפור)

 

 

Ok, you have moved from rhymes to puns, but none fall under the idea of a pun. To create a pun or as I like to call it 'word play', the exchange is within certain phonetic groups. None of these fit.  

 

Some are altered or differing vowels but I do not see a word in your list with only an altered vowel.  

 

There is a significant number of Hebrew wordplays in the Hebrew scriptures. When it comes to the NT, while some claim the original Matthew was written in Hebrew, some claim Aramaic, and many claim Greek. Some of Matthew indicates a type of Hebrew or Aramaic word play, although there are instances where Hebrew/Aramaic humor is evident in the books which are more certainly written in Greek book.    

[clontzjm]

 

 

 

The Poetry of Jesus at the Last Supper

 

At the last supper, Jesus creates a Hebrew poem by rhyming “body” and “vine” and rhyming “atonement” and “fruit.”

 

Matthew 26:26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and, giving it to the disciples, said, “Take, eat; this is my body {“Body” (גופי)}.” 27 Then he took a cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness {“Atonement” (לכפרת)} of sins. 29 From now on, I tell you, I will never drink of this fruit {“Fruit” (פרי)} of the vine {“Vine” (הגפן)} until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” [The Passion: The Poetry of God]

 

Body and Vine are Hebrew puns for each other

“Body” (גופי)

“Vine” (הגפן)

 

Atonement and Fruit are Hebrew puns for each other

“Atonement” (לכפרת)

“Fruit” (פרי)

 

J. Clontz – Editor of The Comprehensive New Testament

 

I disagree.

 

I am not convinced that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew, but even if it was, the Hebrew words for body and vine or atonement and fruit do not rhyme.

 

Hello Qnts2,

 

As you are probably aware Hebrew rhymes or puns are formed by re-arranging (turning) the letters in one word to form another word or letters are added to one word to form the a new word.

 

Often there is a spiritual link or meaning behind the pun. For instance,

“Body” (גופי)

“Vine” (הגפן)

 

Jesus stated in John chapter 15 that he was the true vine. At the last supper, the pun forms a spritual link between the body of Jesus and the true vine - hence the wine at the last supper is from a vine and is spiritually linked to the blood from his body. The pun is formed by the use of the gimmel and pe letters in both words.

 

In the second pun,

“Atonement” (לכפרת)

“Fruit” (פרי)

 

Throughout the gospels (Matthew ch 3,12,21,etc.), John the Baptist and Jesus discuss "bearing fruit" and the connection to bearing fruit and a person's relationship to God. The pun is formed by the use of the pe and resh letters in both words. This particular pun is part of a larger rhyme in the last supper passage that employs:

“Peter” (פיטרוש)

“Deny” (תכפור)

 

 

Ok, you have moved from rhymes to puns, but none fall under the idea of a pun. To create a pun or as I like to call it 'word play', the exchange is within certain phonetic groups. None of these fit.  

 

Some are altered or differing vowels but I do not see a word in your list with only an altered vowel.  

 

There is a significant number of Hebrew wordplays in the Hebrew scriptures. When it comes to the NT, while some claim the original Matthew was written in Hebrew, some claim Aramaic, and many claim Greek. Some of Matthew indicates a type of Hebrew or Aramaic word play, although there are instances where Hebrew/Aramaic humor is evident in the books which are more certainly written in Greek book.    

 

The word connection between “Deny” (תכפור) and “Atonement” (לכפרת) is cited in p.188, Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, George Howard; Mercer University Press, Second Edition, 1995

 

Below is Dr. Howard’s background:

Dr. George Howard Ph.D. (Hebrew Union College/Jewish Institute of Religion)

Emeritus Head of the Department of Religion and Professor of Religion, University of Georgia

Member, Editorial Board Journal of Biblical Literature

Past-President Society of Biblical Literature

 

I have added “Fruit” (פרי) and “Peter” (פיטרוש) which have an alliterative connection to both words stemming from the pe and resh letters. While there is a difference between puns, alliteration and word connections, they are all poetic devices used to create poems. Thus as I stated, a poem was created. To your point, there isn’t a translatable word in English that exactly expresses the concept for Hebrew poetic devices being used in conjunction to produce a set of sounds. I have used the english word “rhyme” since it has alliterative connotations in English concerning the sounds that letters in words make.

 

A similar “rhyme” to what I’ve described is in Genesis 25:25:

“Hair” (שער)

“Esau” (עשו)

 

These two words are not derivative from the same root, however, the letters shin and ayin do produce a common set of sounds to produce a “rhyme.” Using your criteria as I understand it there isn’t a “rhyme” in Genesis 25:25 since “Hair” (שער) and “Esau” (עשו) aren’t in a phonetic group.

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

 

The Poetry of Jesus at the Last Supper

 

At the last supper, Jesus creates a Hebrew poem by rhyming “body” and “vine” and rhyming “atonement” and “fruit.”

 

Matthew 26:26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and, giving it to the disciples, said, “Take, eat; this is my body {“Body” (גופי)}.” 27 Then he took a cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness {“Atonement” (לכפרת)} of sins. 29 From now on, I tell you, I will never drink of this fruit {“Fruit” (פרי)} of the vine {“Vine” (הגפן)} until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” [The Passion: The Poetry of God]

 

Body and Vine are Hebrew puns for each other

“Body” (גופי)

“Vine” (הגפן)

 

Atonement and Fruit are Hebrew puns for each other

“Atonement” (לכפרת)

“Fruit” (פרי)

 

J. Clontz – Editor of The Comprehensive New Testament

 

I disagree.

 

I am not convinced that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew, but even if it was, the Hebrew words for body and vine or atonement and fruit do not rhyme.

 

Hello Qnts2,

 

As you are probably aware Hebrew rhymes or puns are formed by re-arranging (turning) the letters in one word to form another word or letters are added to one word to form the a new word.

 

Often there is a spiritual link or meaning behind the pun. For instance,

“Body” (גופי)

“Vine” (הגפן)

 

Jesus stated in John chapter 15 that he was the true vine. At the last supper, the pun forms a spritual link between the body of Jesus and the true vine - hence the wine at the last supper is from a vine and is spiritually linked to the blood from his body. The pun is formed by the use of the gimmel and pe letters in both words.

 

In the second pun,

“Atonement” (לכפרת)

“Fruit” (פרי)

 

Throughout the gospels (Matthew ch 3,12,21,etc.), John the Baptist and Jesus discuss "bearing fruit" and the connection to bearing fruit and a person's relationship to God. The pun is formed by the use of the pe and resh letters in both words. This particular pun is part of a larger rhyme in the last supper passage that employs:

“Peter” (פיטרוש)

“Deny” (תכפור)

 

 

Ok, you have moved from rhymes to puns, but none fall under the idea of a pun. To create a pun or as I like to call it 'word play', the exchange is within certain phonetic groups. None of these fit.  

 

Some are altered or differing vowels but I do not see a word in your list with only an altered vowel.  

 

There is a significant number of Hebrew wordplays in the Hebrew scriptures. When it comes to the NT, while some claim the original Matthew was written in Hebrew, some claim Aramaic, and many claim Greek. Some of Matthew indicates a type of Hebrew or Aramaic word play, although there are instances where Hebrew/Aramaic humor is evident in the books which are more certainly written in Greek book.    

 

The word connection between “Deny” (תכפור) and “Atonement” (לכפרת) is cited in p.188, Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, George Howard; Mercer University Press, Second Edition, 1995

 

Below is Dr. Howard’s background:

Dr. George Howard Ph.D. (Hebrew Union College/Jewish Institute of Religion)

Emeritus Head of the Department of Religion and Professor of Religion, University of Georgia

Member, Editorial Board Journal of Biblical Literature

Past-President Society of Biblical Literature

 

I have added “Fruit” (פרי) and “Peter” (פיטרוש) which have an alliterative connection to both words stemming from the pe and resh letters. While there is a difference between puns, alliteration and word connections, they are all poetic devices used to create poems. Thus as I stated, a poem was created. To your point, there isn’t a translatable word in English that exactly expresses the concept for Hebrew poetic devices being used in conjunction to produce a set of sounds. I have used the english word “rhyme” since it has alliterative connotations in English concerning the sounds that letters in words make.

 

A similar “rhyme” to what I’ve described is in Genesis 25:25:

“Hair” (שער)

“Esau” (עשו)

 

These two words are not derivative from the same root, however, the letters shin and ayin do produce a common set of sounds to produce a “rhyme.” Using your criteria as I understand it there isn’t a “rhyme” in Genesis 25:25 since “Hair” (שער) and “Esau” (עשו) aren’t in a phonetic group.

 

 

Just FYI- I have no problem disagreeing with people who claim expertise. Sometimes I prove my point and they accept it, and sometimes they further explain their reasoning, which I deem as valid, and sometimes we simply disagree, which good scholars are used to.

 

 

There are certain accepted forms of puns in Hebrew, but generally the puns have to have a sufficiently similar sound, or a play on words.  

 

A simply pun in Hebrew can be found in Isaiah 5:7

 

'God looked for justice (mishpat) but only saw oppresion (mispach).'

 

For pure poetic verse, look no further the Genesis 1 where scripture says the earthd was without form and void which is a famously poetic expression of Tohu v'Bohu.

 

In Matthew, the best known Hebrew word play is He shall be called a Nazarene, which does not exist in the Hebrew scripture, but is most likely a word play with Netser.

 

But your professor stretches it too far. A couple of common or related letters in two words in the same sentence does not consistute word play/puns. The words do not sound similar at all, and have no related meaning to other similar sounding words. To stretch it further, they do not have any similar numeric values and he does not use any form of Gematria to build the relationship or use other valid alternate relationships. And all of that to further say, Matthew might not have been written in Hebrew at all.     

[clontzjm]

 

 

 

 

 

The Poetry of Jesus at the Last Supper

 

At the last supper, Jesus creates a Hebrew poem by rhyming “body” and “vine” and rhyming “atonement” and “fruit.”

 

Matthew 26:26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and, giving it to the disciples, said, “Take, eat; this is my body {“Body” (גופי)}.” 27 Then he took a cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness {“Atonement” (לכפרת)} of sins. 29 From now on, I tell you, I will never drink of this fruit {“Fruit” (פרי)} of the vine {“Vine” (הגפן)} until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” [The Passion: The Poetry of God]

 

Body and Vine are Hebrew puns for each other

“Body” (גופי)

“Vine” (הגפן)

 

Atonement and Fruit are Hebrew puns for each other

“Atonement” (לכפרת)

“Fruit” (פרי)

 

J. Clontz – Editor of The Comprehensive New Testament

 

I disagree.

 

I am not convinced that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew, but even if it was, the Hebrew words for body and vine or atonement and fruit do not rhyme.

 

Hello Qnts2,

 

As you are probably aware Hebrew rhymes or puns are formed by re-arranging (turning) the letters in one word to form another word or letters are added to one word to form the a new word.

 

Often there is a spiritual link or meaning behind the pun. For instance,

“Body” (גופי)

“Vine” (הגפן)

 

Jesus stated in John chapter 15 that he was the true vine. At the last supper, the pun forms a spritual link between the body of Jesus and the true vine - hence the wine at the last supper is from a vine and is spiritually linked to the blood from his body. The pun is formed by the use of the gimmel and pe letters in both words.

 

In the second pun,

“Atonement” (לכפרת)

“Fruit” (פרי)

 

Throughout the gospels (Matthew ch 3,12,21,etc.), John the Baptist and Jesus discuss "bearing fruit" and the connection to bearing fruit and a person's relationship to God. The pun is formed by the use of the pe and resh letters in both words. This particular pun is part of a larger rhyme in the last supper passage that employs:

“Peter” (פיטרוש)

“Deny” (תכפור)

 

 

Ok, you have moved from rhymes to puns, but none fall under the idea of a pun. To create a pun or as I like to call it 'word play', the exchange is within certain phonetic groups. None of these fit.  

 

Some are altered or differing vowels but I do not see a word in your list with only an altered vowel.  

 

There is a significant number of Hebrew wordplays in the Hebrew scriptures. When it comes to the NT, while some claim the original Matthew was written in Hebrew, some claim Aramaic, and many claim Greek. Some of Matthew indicates a type of Hebrew or Aramaic word play, although there are instances where Hebrew/Aramaic humor is evident in the books which are more certainly written in Greek book.    

 

The word connection between “Deny” (תכפור) and “Atonement” (לכפרת) is cited in p.188, Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, George Howard; Mercer University Press, Second Edition, 1995

 

Below is Dr. Howard’s background:

Dr. George Howard Ph.D. (Hebrew Union College/Jewish Institute of Religion)

Emeritus Head of the Department of Religion and Professor of Religion, University of Georgia

Member, Editorial Board Journal of Biblical Literature

Past-President Society of Biblical Literature

 

I have added “Fruit” (פרי) and “Peter” (פיטרוש) which have an alliterative connection to both words stemming from the pe and resh letters. While there is a difference between puns, alliteration and word connections, they are all poetic devices used to create poems. Thus as I stated, a poem was created. To your point, there isn’t a translatable word in English that exactly expresses the concept for Hebrew poetic devices being used in conjunction to produce a set of sounds. I have used the english word “rhyme” since it has alliterative connotations in English concerning the sounds that letters in words make.

 

A similar “rhyme” to what I’ve described is in Genesis 25:25:

“Hair” (שער)

“Esau” (עשו)

 

These two words are not derivative from the same root, however, the letters shin and ayin do produce a common set of sounds to produce a “rhyme.” Using your criteria as I understand it there isn’t a “rhyme” in Genesis 25:25 since “Hair” (שער) and “Esau” (עשו) aren’t in a phonetic group.

 

 

Just FYI- I have no problem disagreeing with people who claim expertise. Sometimes I prove my point and they accept it, and sometimes they further explain their reasoning, which I deem as valid, and sometimes we simply disagree, which good scholars are used to.

 

There are certain accepted forms of puns in Hebrew, but generally the puns have to have a sufficiently similar sound, or a play on words.  

 

A simply pun in Hebrew can be found in Isaiah 5:7

 

'God looked for justice (mishpat) but only saw oppresion (mispach).'

 

For pure poetic verse, look no further the Genesis 1 where scripture says the earthd was without form and void which is a famously poetic expression of Tohu v'Bohu

 

Hello Qnts2,

 

I am not sure that were are simply entangled in terminology. We both agree that Isaiah 5:7 and Genesis 1 contain puns. However I am not sure that we both agree that Genesis 25:25 is a form of Hebrew rhyme or wordplay between hair and Esau. By context, Genesis 25:25 was meant to portray a Hebrew rhyme or wordplay between hair and Esau. The same type of rhyme or wordplay in Genesis 25:25 is what I have indicated exists in Matthew 26. We don't have to agree and some people see poetic connections where others do not. If you can't see the rhyme or wordplay in Genesis 25:25 that you won't see the wordplay that I am pointing out since it is based on the same poetic principle. The wordplay in Genesis 25:25 is an accepted type of poetic device in Hebrew.

 

Jerry

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Poetry of Jesus at the Last Supper

 

At the last supper, Jesus creates a Hebrew poem by rhyming “body” and “vine” and rhyming “atonement” and “fruit.”

 

Matthew 26:26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and, giving it to the disciples, said, “Take, eat; this is my body {“Body” (גופי)}.” 27 Then he took a cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness {“Atonement” (לכפרת)} of sins. 29 From now on, I tell you, I will never drink of this fruit {“Fruit” (פרי)} of the vine {“Vine” (הגפן)} until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” [The Passion: The Poetry of God]

 

Body and Vine are Hebrew puns for each other

“Body” (גופי)

“Vine” (הגפן)

 

Atonement and Fruit are Hebrew puns for each other

“Atonement” (לכפרת)

“Fruit” (פרי)

 

J. Clontz – Editor of The Comprehensive New Testament

 

I disagree.

 

I am not convinced that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew, but even if it was, the Hebrew words for body and vine or atonement and fruit do not rhyme.

 

Hello Qnts2,

 

As you are probably aware Hebrew rhymes or puns are formed by re-arranging (turning) the letters in one word to form another word or letters are added to one word to form the a new word.

 

Often there is a spiritual link or meaning behind the pun. For instance,

“Body” (גופי)

“Vine” (הגפן)

 

Jesus stated in John chapter 15 that he was the true vine. At the last supper, the pun forms a spritual link between the body of Jesus and the true vine - hence the wine at the last supper is from a vine and is spiritually linked to the blood from his body. The pun is formed by the use of the gimmel and pe letters in both words.

 

In the second pun,

“Atonement” (לכפרת)

“Fruit” (פרי)

 

Throughout the gospels (Matthew ch 3,12,21,etc.), John the Baptist and Jesus discuss "bearing fruit" and the connection to bearing fruit and a person's relationship to God. The pun is formed by the use of the pe and resh letters in both words. This particular pun is part of a larger rhyme in the last supper passage that employs:

“Peter” (פיטרוש)

“Deny” (תכפור)

 

 

Ok, you have moved from rhymes to puns, but none fall under the idea of a pun. To create a pun or as I like to call it 'word play', the exchange is within certain phonetic groups. None of these fit.  

 

Some are altered or differing vowels but I do not see a word in your list with only an altered vowel.  

 

There is a significant number of Hebrew wordplays in the Hebrew scriptures. When it comes to the NT, while some claim the original Matthew was written in Hebrew, some claim Aramaic, and many claim Greek. Some of Matthew indicates a type of Hebrew or Aramaic word play, although there are instances where Hebrew/Aramaic humor is evident in the books which are more certainly written in Greek book.    

 

The word connection between “Deny” (תכפור) and “Atonement” (לכפרת) is cited in p.188, Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, George Howard; Mercer University Press, Second Edition, 1995

 

Below is Dr. Howard’s background:

Dr. George Howard Ph.D. (Hebrew Union College/Jewish Institute of Religion)

Emeritus Head of the Department of Religion and Professor of Religion, University of Georgia

Member, Editorial Board Journal of Biblical Literature

Past-President Society of Biblical Literature

 

I have added “Fruit” (פרי) and “Peter” (פיטרוש) which have an alliterative connection to both words stemming from the pe and resh letters. While there is a difference between puns, alliteration and word connections, they are all poetic devices used to create poems. Thus as I stated, a poem was created. To your point, there isn’t a translatable word in English that exactly expresses the concept for Hebrew poetic devices being used in conjunction to produce a set of sounds. I have used the english word “rhyme” since it has alliterative connotations in English concerning the sounds that letters in words make.

 

A similar “rhyme” to what I’ve described is in Genesis 25:25:

“Hair” (שער)

“Esau” (עשו)

 

These two words are not derivative from the same root, however, the letters shin and ayin do produce a common set of sounds to produce a “rhyme.” Using your criteria as I understand it there isn’t a “rhyme” in Genesis 25:25 since “Hair” (שער) and “Esau” (עשו) aren’t in a phonetic group.

 

 

Just FYI- I have no problem disagreeing with people who claim expertise. Sometimes I prove my point and they accept it, and sometimes they further explain their reasoning, which I deem as valid, and sometimes we simply disagree, which good scholars are used to.

 

There are certain accepted forms of puns in Hebrew, but generally the puns have to have a sufficiently similar sound, or a play on words.  

 

A simply pun in Hebrew can be found in Isaiah 5:7

 

'God looked for justice (mishpat) but only saw oppresion (mispach).'

 

For pure poetic verse, look no further the Genesis 1 where scripture says the earthd was without form and void which is a famously poetic expression of Tohu v'Bohu

 

Hello Qnts2,

 

I am not sure that were are simply entangled in terminology. We both agree that Isaiah 5:7 and Genesis 1 contain puns. However I am not sure that we both agree that Genesis 25:25 is a form of Hebrew rhyme or wordplay between hair and Esau. By context, Genesis 25:25 was meant to portray a Hebrew rhyme or wordplay between hair and Esau. The same type of rhyme or wordplay in Genesis 25:25 is what I have indicated exists in Matthew 26. We don't have to agree and some people see poetic connections where others do not. If you can't see the rhyme or wordplay in Genesis 25:25 that you won't see the wordplay that I am pointing out since it is based on the same poetic principle. The wordplay in Genesis 25:25 is an accepted type of poetic device in Hebrew.

 

Jerry

 

 

Ok, I had to go get Genesis 25:25 in Hebrew, and yes, the word play is definitely there.  

 

Now, when moving to Matthew, are you translating the Greek to Hebrew or Using an existing Hebrew translation or Aramaic to Hebrew? Simply, where are you getting the Hebrew from?

[clontzjm]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Poetry of Jesus at the Last Supper

 

At the last supper, Jesus creates a Hebrew poem by rhyming “body” and “vine” and rhyming “atonement” and “fruit.”

 

Matthew 26:26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and, giving it to the disciples, said, “Take, eat; this is my body {“Body” (גופי)}.” 27 Then he took a cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness {“Atonement” (לכפרת)} of sins. 29 From now on, I tell you, I will never drink of this fruit {“Fruit” (פרי)} of the vine {“Vine” (הגפן)} until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” [The Passion: The Poetry of God]

 

Body and Vine are Hebrew puns for each other

“Body” (גופי)

“Vine” (הגפן)

 

Atonement and Fruit are Hebrew puns for each other

“Atonement” (לכפרת)

“Fruit” (פרי)

 

J. Clontz – Editor of The Comprehensive New Testament

 

I disagree.

 

I am not convinced that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew, but even if it was, the Hebrew words for body and vine or atonement and fruit do not rhyme.

 

Hello Qnts2,

 

As you are probably aware Hebrew rhymes or puns are formed by re-arranging (turning) the letters in one word to form another word or letters are added to one word to form the a new word.

 

Often there is a spiritual link or meaning behind the pun. For instance,

“Body” (גופי)

“Vine” (הגפן)

 

Jesus stated in John chapter 15 that he was the true vine. At the last supper, the pun forms a spritual link between the body of Jesus and the true vine - hence the wine at the last supper is from a vine and is spiritually linked to the blood from his body. The pun is formed by the use of the gimmel and pe letters in both words.

 

In the second pun,

“Atonement” (לכפרת)

“Fruit” (פרי)

 

Throughout the gospels (Matthew ch 3,12,21,etc.), John the Baptist and Jesus discuss "bearing fruit" and the connection to bearing fruit and a person's relationship to God. The pun is formed by the use of the pe and resh letters in both words. This particular pun is part of a larger rhyme in the last supper passage that employs:

“Peter” (פיטרוש)

“Deny” (תכפור)

 

 

Ok, you have moved from rhymes to puns, but none fall under the idea of a pun. To create a pun or as I like to call it 'word play', the exchange is within certain phonetic groups. None of these fit.  

 

Some are altered or differing vowels but I do not see a word in your list with only an altered vowel.  

 

There is a significant number of Hebrew wordplays in the Hebrew scriptures. When it comes to the NT, while some claim the original Matthew was written in Hebrew, some claim Aramaic, and many claim Greek. Some of Matthew indicates a type of Hebrew or Aramaic word play, although there are instances where Hebrew/Aramaic humor is evident in the books which are more certainly written in Greek book.    

 

The word connection between “Deny” (תכפור) and “Atonement” (לכפרת) is cited in p.188, Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, George Howard; Mercer University Press, Second Edition, 1995

 

Below is Dr. Howard’s background:

Dr. George Howard Ph.D. (Hebrew Union College/Jewish Institute of Religion)

Emeritus Head of the Department of Religion and Professor of Religion, University of Georgia

Member, Editorial Board Journal of Biblical Literature

Past-President Society of Biblical Literature

 

I have added “Fruit” (פרי) and “Peter” (פיטרוש) which have an alliterative connection to both words stemming from the pe and resh letters. While there is a difference between puns, alliteration and word connections, they are all poetic devices used to create poems. Thus as I stated, a poem was created. To your point, there isn’t a translatable word in English that exactly expresses the concept for Hebrew poetic devices being used in conjunction to produce a set of sounds. I have used the english word “rhyme” since it has alliterative connotations in English concerning the sounds that letters in words make.

 

A similar “rhyme” to what I’ve described is in Genesis 25:25:

“Hair” (שער)

“Esau” (עשו)

 

These two words are not derivative from the same root, however, the letters shin and ayin do produce a common set of sounds to produce a “rhyme.” Using your criteria as I understand it there isn’t a “rhyme” in Genesis 25:25 since “Hair” (שער) and “Esau” (עשו) aren’t in a phonetic group.

 

 

Just FYI- I have no problem disagreeing with people who claim expertise. Sometimes I prove my point and they accept it, and sometimes they further explain their reasoning, which I deem as valid, and sometimes we simply disagree, which good scholars are used to.

 

There are certain accepted forms of puns in Hebrew, but generally the puns have to have a sufficiently similar sound, or a play on words.  

 

A simply pun in Hebrew can be found in Isaiah 5:7

 

'God looked for justice (mishpat) but only saw oppresion (mispach).'

 

For pure poetic verse, look no further the Genesis 1 where scripture says the earthd was without form and void which is a famously poetic expression of Tohu v'Bohu

 

Hello Qnts2,

 

I am not sure that were are simply entangled in terminology. We both agree that Isaiah 5:7 and Genesis 1 contain puns. However I am not sure that we both agree that Genesis 25:25 is a form of Hebrew rhyme or wordplay between hair and Esau. By context, Genesis 25:25 was meant to portray a Hebrew rhyme or wordplay between hair and Esau. The same type of rhyme or wordplay in Genesis 25:25 is what I have indicated exists in Matthew 26. We don't have to agree and some people see poetic connections where others do not. If you can't see the rhyme or wordplay in Genesis 25:25 that you won't see the wordplay that I am pointing out since it is based on the same poetic principle. The wordplay in Genesis 25:25 is an accepted type of poetic device in Hebrew.

 

Jerry

 

 

Ok, I had to go get Genesis 25:25 in Hebrew, and yes, the word play is definitely there.  

 

Now, when moving to Matthew, are you translating the Greek to Hebrew or Using an existing Hebrew translation or Aramaic to Hebrew? Simply, where are you getting the Hebrew from?

 

Hello Qnts2,

 

I've studied several texts but for this passage I chose the Hebrew from the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, George Howard; Mercer University Press, Second Edition, 1995. For this passage, I was struck by the fact that the Hebrew term for "atonement" was used instead of using the obvious pun between the Hebrew words "bread" and "forgiveness" which is found in the sermon on the mount for the Lord's prayer. It appeared that a deeper meaning than mere forgiveness was being impllied. Since the words "atonement" and "deny" meet even your criteria for Hebrew poetry, it appeared that this saying was potentially meant to be very specific. All of the apostles would end up fleeing that night, essentially "denying" Jesus (Peter literally denied Jesus). Yet Jesus was offering "atonement" even for the "denial." This would have had an emotional impact on the apostles when they realized the full implication of the atonement. Taking the Lord's supper is a public demonstration of having accepted ("atonement") Jesus - the very opposite of "denying" him.

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

 

 

Just FYI- I have no problem disagreeing with people who claim expertise. Sometimes I prove my point and they accept it, and sometimes they further explain their reasoning, which I deem as valid, and sometimes we simply disagree, which good scholars are used to.

 

There are certain accepted forms of puns in Hebrew, but generally the puns have to have a sufficiently similar sound, or a play on words.  

 

A simply pun in Hebrew can be found in Isaiah 5:7

 

'God looked for justice (mishpat) but only saw oppresion (mispach).'

 

For pure poetic verse, look no further the Genesis 1 where scripture says the earthd was without form and void which is a famously poetic expression of Tohu v'Bohu

 

Hello Qnts2,

 

I am not sure that were are simply entangled in terminology. We both agree that Isaiah 5:7 and Genesis 1 contain puns. However I am not sure that we both agree that Genesis 25:25 is a form of Hebrew rhyme or wordplay between hair and Esau. By context, Genesis 25:25 was meant to portray a Hebrew rhyme or wordplay between hair and Esau. The same type of rhyme or wordplay in Genesis 25:25 is what I have indicated exists in Matthew 26. We don't have to agree and some people see poetic connections where others do not. If you can't see the rhyme or wordplay in Genesis 25:25 that you won't see the wordplay that I am pointing out since it is based on the same poetic principle. The wordplay in Genesis 25:25 is an accepted type of poetic device in Hebrew.

 

Jerry

 

 

Ok, I had to go get Genesis 25:25 in Hebrew, and yes, the word play is definitely there.  

 

Now, when moving to Matthew, are you translating the Greek to Hebrew or Using an existing Hebrew translation or Aramaic to Hebrew? Simply, where are you getting the Hebrew from?

 

Hello Qnts2,

 

I've studied several texts but for this passage I chose the Hebrew from the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, George Howard; Mercer University Press, Second Edition, 1995. For this passage, I was struck by the fact that the Hebrew term for "atonement" was used instead of using the obvious pun between the Hebrew words "bread" and "forgiveness" which is found in the sermon on the mount for the Lord's prayer. It appeared that a deeper meaning than mere forgiveness was being impllied. Since the words "atonement" and "deny" meet even your criteria for Hebrew poetry, it appeared that this saying was potentially meant to be very specific. All of the apostles would end up fleeing that night, essentially "denying" Jesus (Peter literally denied Jesus). Yet Jesus was offering "atonement" even for the "denial." This would have had an emotional impact on the apostles when they realized the full implication of the atonement. Taking the Lord's supper is a public demonstration of having accepted ("atonement") Jesus - the very opposite of "denying" him.

 

 

 

Ok, so you chose to use the Howard Mercer translation of atonement. In light of other translations, Mercer to my knowledge stands alone. It brings up one issue. The word as written is plural. I do not know if the text calls for singular as the other translations or if the Greek word allows for atonement or forgiveness. I do not know Greek so I am at a definite disadvantage when dealing with a Greek to Hebrew translation. I am far more comfortable with English to Hebrew or Hebrew to English.  But the differences between this and other reliable translations does raise a question.

 

Another issue is the words chosen. Pri hagafen is a standard phrase translated as fruit of the vine/wine. Fruit of the vine is a phrase used repeatedly in the Hebrew scriptures. To break apart this phrase to use fruit and vine as a word play does not seem warranted. I do not believe this was intended as a word play. Rather it is a standard phrase and any perceived word play is simply coincidental.  

 

 

Unless the word play goes back to the Hebrew scriptures.

[clontzjm]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just FYI- I have no problem disagreeing with people who claim expertise. Sometimes I prove my point and they accept it, and sometimes they further explain their reasoning, which I deem as valid, and sometimes we simply disagree, which good scholars are used to.

 

There are certain accepted forms of puns in Hebrew, but generally the puns have to have a sufficiently similar sound, or a play on words.  

 

A simply pun in Hebrew can be found in Isaiah 5:7

 

'God looked for justice (mishpat) but only saw oppresion (mispach).'

 

For pure poetic verse, look no further the Genesis 1 where scripture says the earthd was without form and void which is a famously poetic expression of Tohu v'Bohu

 

Hello Qnts2,

 

I am not sure that were are simply entangled in terminology. We both agree that Isaiah 5:7 and Genesis 1 contain puns. However I am not sure that we both agree that Genesis 25:25 is a form of Hebrew rhyme or wordplay between hair and Esau. By context, Genesis 25:25 was meant to portray a Hebrew rhyme or wordplay between hair and Esau. The same type of rhyme or wordplay in Genesis 25:25 is what I have indicated exists in Matthew 26. We don't have to agree and some people see poetic connections where others do not. If you can't see the rhyme or wordplay in Genesis 25:25 that you won't see the wordplay that I am pointing out since it is based on the same poetic principle. The wordplay in Genesis 25:25 is an accepted type of poetic device in Hebrew.

 

Jerry

 

 

Ok, I had to go get Genesis 25:25 in Hebrew, and yes, the word play is definitely there.  

 

Now, when moving to Matthew, are you translating the Greek to Hebrew or Using an existing Hebrew translation or Aramaic to Hebrew? Simply, where are you getting the Hebrew from?

 

Hello Qnts2,

 

I've studied several texts but for this passage I chose the Hebrew from the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, George Howard; Mercer University Press, Second Edition, 1995. For this passage, I was struck by the fact that the Hebrew term for "atonement" was used instead of using the obvious pun between the Hebrew words "bread" and "forgiveness" which is found in the sermon on the mount for the Lord's prayer. It appeared that a deeper meaning than mere forgiveness was being impllied. Since the words "atonement" and "deny" meet even your criteria for Hebrew poetry, it appeared that this saying was potentially meant to be very specific. All of the apostles would end up fleeing that night, essentially "denying" Jesus (Peter literally denied Jesus). Yet Jesus was offering "atonement" even for the "denial." This would have had an emotional impact on the apostles when they realized the full implication of the atonement. Taking the Lord's supper is a public demonstration of having accepted ("atonement") Jesus - the very opposite of "denying" him.

 

 

 

Ok, so you chose to use the Howard Mercer translation of atonement. In light of other translations, Mercer to my knowledge stands alone. It brings up one issue. The word as written is plural. I do not know if the text calls for singular as the other translations or if the Greek word allows for atonement or forgiveness. I do not know Greek so I am at a definite disadvantage when dealing with a Greek to Hebrew translation. I am far more comfortable with English to Hebrew or Hebrew to English.  But the differences between this and other reliable translations does raise a question.

 

Another issue is the words chosen. Pri hagafen is a standard phrase translated as fruit of the vine/wine. Fruit of the vine is a phrase used repeatedly in the Hebrew scriptures. To break apart this phrase to use fruit and vine as a word play does not seem warranted. I do not believe this was intended as a word play. Rather it is a standard phrase and any perceived word play is simply coincidental.  

 

 

Unless the word play goes back to the Hebrew scriptures.

 

That's the point, I am not breaking them apart. "Fruit of the Vine" is the target of the wordplay and poetically morphs into "atonement of the body." Isn't that what the last supper symbolized and the offering of Jesus on the cross was about? The key to the poem is Fruit of the vine - Jesus used this precise term for a reason. When a poet uses a precise term it is often to create a wordplay. Jesus was a poet and I believe that the phrase Fruit of the vine was chosen by him to create a poem.

 

By the way, I looked for obvious poetics by going through the gospels in English so that I would not create wordplays in Hebrew. They are typically easy to spot in English. Normally a very specific descriptive and unique word or phrase placed in a passage - even though it is translated it is still very specific and descriptive. Then you have to go back into the native speaker's language and try to find what rhymes with what appears to be a poetic device. I chose this text because it had the poetic device that I had already spotted. It can take a long time until you finally understand the poetic device and the meaning that it is trying to amplify. You have to try to look at the passage as a poet would.  

 

Jerry