Passover and the Lord's supper communion

[Qnts2]

Ok, this topic might be challenging.

Tomorrow night, I am going to present the Passover Seder to a group of Christians in a house church. The people in this church are preparing a large amount of food, and the various symbolic foods of Passover. And they have four large bottles of Manischewitz wine for the four cups.

I usually use an Orthodox Judaism haggadah, and read what Jesus was doing during the Last Supper, to show from the symbolism what Jesus was doing and saying. The NT descriptions follow very closely with the Haggadah of Judaism (with the exceptions of the additions in Judaism for the loss of the Temple).

Anyway, this seder is the context of the communion and actually what Jesus was doing when He told the church to do this in memory of Him. The OT Passover is commanded to be done in memory of what God did, when He redeemed the Jewish people from bondage in Egypt.

The NT Passover is commanded to be done in memory of what Jesus did, when He redeemed believers from bondage to sin and the penalty.

There are several Holy days which are commanded. All point to Jesus, and at this point, Jesus has completed the symbolism of the spring holy days. There are two different kinds of Holy days. They are either feasts or fasts. The feasts are done in memory of what God has done for the Jewish people and are festivals/celebrations of what God has done. The fasts are solemn holy days, where the Jewish people look at themselves, and repent for any sins.

Now, there is the difference. The feasts are celebrations in memory of the wonderful things God has done and the fasts are solemn, and a time of repentance.

Passover is a feast, a celebration, and communion which comes from Passover is to be a feast, a celebration in memory of what Jesus has done for us. Not a solemn time of repentance.

So, why is communion a solemn event? It shouldn't be. It is a time of celebration and thankfulness in memory of what Jesus did for us.

1 Cor 11:17 But in giving this instruction, I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse. ¹⁸ For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it. ¹⁹ For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you. ²⁰ Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper, ²¹ for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. ²² What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you.

Now, let's go back to the house church I am going to tomorrow, to celebrate Passover. They are making two large turkeys, salad, potatoes, carrot tzimmes, hard boiled eggs. A huge dinner. And four very large bottles of wine. The seder starts at 6:30 pm. Suppose a group comes early, at 5:30 pm, and pulls out the food and wine. And they gorge themselves on the food to get their share before anyone else gets there. And they drink almost all of the wine.

When the rest arrive, they will probably find those who ate way to much and got sick. And they will find those who are drunk and fallen asleep. The guests who arrive at 6:30 pm will not find much to eat, and will be left hungry. They will likely not be pleased at all with the gorged and drunken people who arrived early and got their own suppers first. They will judge those as selfish and condemn them for their actions.

1 Cor 11:23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; ²⁴ and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” ²⁵ In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” ²⁶ For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.

²⁷ Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. ²⁸ But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. ²⁹ For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. ³⁰ For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. ³¹ But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. ³² But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

³³ So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. ³⁴ If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, so that you will not come together for judgment. The remaining matters I will arrange when I come.

Communion is a time when the body comes together to celebrate, in memory of what Jesus has done for us, and we eat the bread, and drink the wine together, caring for each other as a body/family. Do not do so in an unworthy manner, hogging the food and wine. Make it a celebration of what God did for us.

[Sevenseas]

Yeah, I understand what you are saying. When I was a member of a Messianic congregation they actually celebrated as you are describing it. Most churches do seem to observe what is called

communion and it is very solemn ...they are remembering Jesus in His death and sacrifice...warnings are usually given prior to passing the wine and the bread to examine yourself to make sure

you do not partake lightly...which would contribute to the solemnity I am sure. (and of course there is a biblical basis for this found in I Cor. 11)

Some churches do this once a month.....some every Sunday in a separate service....some after the regular Sunday service...I've seen it done many different ways but almost always

not as a celebration..yet Easter most people turn out in a celebratory manner because they celebrate Christ risen.

In I Cor 11, we read of a problem they had in that church regarding celebrating......some were getting drunk and some were eating so much that others did not have enough, so that Paul

asks 'Don't you have houses to eat too much in and to get drunk in? (colloquial version)...

So why is communion such a solemn event? Maybe they swung the other way after being admonished....like the scenario you give above...maybe meals began to be seen as a problem...

I like the sit down meal myself with other believers and then a service afterward, but that seems hard to come by...I think the idea of a meal is more in keeping with the original idea

as a body of believers coming together...things are formal in church and it is more like a duty it seems

hmmm...came back to say that I just read in another thread that the reason for communion is to remember the Lord's DEATH....so there you have it...solemn...I think the real

idea is to celebrate DELIVERANCE from death...as was the original passover. As the Bible states, there are not many who should imagine or fancy themselves teachers

[nebula]

Good point!

Another is this: Communion tends to be an individual partaking. Some churches may have its members gather in small groups and partake of the bread and the wine together, or some churches have the congregation partake at once - but even still there is the sense of it being a self-reflection moment, and a communing between the individual and the Lord - but not communing truly with each other.

I find this odd - in light of the Passover celebration from which the tradition comes.

[Leonard]

"Eucharist" means THANKSGIVING! As they say in modern Greek "Ev charisto!"

[Qnts2]

"Eucharist" means THANKSGIVING! As they say in modern Greek "Ev charisto!"

Ok, correct me if I'm wrong.

Is the term Eucharist used only by groups which believe in transubstination or consubstination?

For some reason I think of the term Eucharist as being used in High Churches only.

[Shimshon]

Ok, this topic might be challenging.

Tomorrow night, I am going to present the Passover Seder to a group of Christians in a house church. The people in this church are preparing a large amount of food, and the various symbolic foods of Passover. And they have four large bottles of Manischewitz wine for the four cups.

Praying your celebration tonight goes well. May Eliyahu show up for you! And may the Spirit of the Messiah be with you.

Chag Sameach!

[Qnts2]

Ok, this topic might be challenging.

Tomorrow night, I am going to present the Passover Seder to a group of Christians in a house church. The people in this church are preparing a large amount of food, and the various symbolic foods of Passover. And they have four large bottles of Manischewitz wine for the four cups.

Praying your celebration tonight goes well. May Eliyahu show up for you! And may the Spirit of the Messiah be with you.

Chag Sameach!

Thanks, If Eliyahu shows up, I'll be sure to let you know, but I think you will already know.

[Botz]

Do you see a difference between breaking bread, and celebrating the L-rds supper?

From what I understand we don't really do either in most Christian communities, but have trasmogrified some Scriptures

into what we call Communion... an emblematic practice, not without merit, but not according to Scripture perhaps?

The idea of Pesach/Passover was one of remembrance, a yearly feast and this was the context of the words of Jesus

so that as far as I can see it was meant to be done once a year in the context of a Passover celebration.

One of my concerns regarding communion is that it is really a tradition of men, and is largely divorced from anything

approaching a scriptural context, and where we can be fairly blazé in taking the the bread and wine, just saying a quick

prayer if we know there is sin in our lives, but nothing really powerful or meaningful or life-changing.

If Passover is approached with the added meaning that Jesus gave us, it would be a time of huge significance for

the Church as a whole and us as individuals...the Jewish people have a period of time before the feast where they

search out any yeast or yeast derivative representative of sin...sometimes they do this over a sustained period of

a week or more....Imagine how the Church might be transformed if we celebrated this feast with all our heart and

truly got right with G-d in every area. No longer would it be a habit or empty tradition, but something that had

Jesus at its centre.

Anyway just a few personal thoughts.

[Qnts2]

Do you see a difference between breaking bread, and celebrating the L-rds supper?

From what I understand we don't really do either in most Christian communities, but have trasmogrified some Scriptures

into what we call Communion... an emblematic practice, not without merit, but not according to Scripture perhaps?

The idea of Pesach/Passover was one of remembrance, a yearly feast and this was the context of the words of Jesus

so that as far as I can see it was meant to be done once a year in the context of a Passover celebration.

One of my concerns regarding communion is that it is really a tradition of men, and is largely divorced from anything

approaching a scriptural context, and where we can be fairly blazé in taking the the bread and wine, just saying a quick

prayer if we know there is sin in our lives, but nothing really powerful or meaningful or life-changing.

If Passover is approached with the added meaning that Jesus gave us, it would be a time of huge significance for

the Church as a whole and us as individuals...the Jewish people have a period of time before the feast where they

search out any yeast or yeast derivative representative of sin...sometimes they do this over a sustained period of

a week or more....Imagine how the Church might be transformed if we celebrated this feast with all our heart and

truly got right with G-d in every area. No longer would it be a habit or empty tradition, but something that had

Jesus at its centre.

Anyway just a few personal thoughts.

I like your thoughts.

I do tend to think that communion/Passover is a once a year celebration. In line with the other Holy Days, it would more clearly outline Gods plan for salvation, what has already occurred and what will occur in the future. That would be the fulfilled purpose of the Holy days. As it stands today, communion looks at Jesus death, multiple times a year, but fails to look at the rest of the story with the same frequency. The once a year Holy days places significance on all that Jesus did as a part of our redemption and adoption.

Just a question for anybody. Do any churches celebrate Pentacost/Shavuot?

[Botz]

I like your thoughts.

Thanks, I really appreciate what you have been writing too.

I do tend to think that communion/Passover is a once a year celebration. In line with the other Holy Days, it would more clearly outline Gods plan for salvation, what has already occurred and what will occur in the future. That would be the fulfilled purpose of the Holy days. As it stands today, communion looks at Jesus death, multiple times a year, but fails to look at the rest of the story with the same frequency. The once a year Holy days places significance on all that Jesus did as a part of our redemption and adoption.

Yes...when Passover is celebrated it is also a community and family gathering, it is joyous and good food and wine flows freely, and it

is a yearly focal point for Jewish people to remember the great deliverance G-d wrought for them under Moses...I think we have largely

lost the ability to celebrate from the heart and with passion the sort of Passover early Believers would have experienced during which

they incorporated the great deliverance they now had from the Kingdom of Darkness into His glorious Light....it doesn't have the restrictions

of a purely religious ceremony, but is inclusive of an outstanding deliverance and a reminder of the plans and purposes of G-d to all mankind.

The Church lost so much when it incorporated anti-Semitic teachings that broke away from all things Jewish...in these days we have the opportunity

to redress the balance, but the time is short and the battle is hard.

Just a question for anybody. Do any churches celebrate Pentacost/Shavuot?

I expect one or two do, but ours doesn't, and I am unawares of others Christian groups that celebrate Pentecost apart from

a mention of it and perhaps reading a couple a relevant Scriptures.