For those that believe in the Big Bang, what was there before?

[RobbyPants]

When it comes to God (and really most things) there comes a point where faith has to take over

 

 

 

Fair enough, JDavis. Thanks.

 

But that goes both ways, doesn’t it, Robby? In order to postulate an exclusively naturalistic view of the universe, you must have FAITH in nature, don’t you? And that’s not all: you must also have faith in yourself.

 

Because I still didn’t receive any answer to one of my old questions in this forum: why does any atheist think (s)he will EVER understand the universe (let alone now)? What’s the basis for such an expectation? Until you have an answer to that question, please don’t claim you DO understand the universe: because you have no basis for that. You must reasonably conclude if the universe is understandable in the first place.

I postulate a naturalistic world view, because there are a lot of parts of it that we do understand, so there's no compelling reason to fill any of those gaps with God (or Allah, the FSM, fleems, or anything else).

That being said, your approach to this and mine are not the same. I do not dogmatically believe in evolution. If evolution were definitively proven to be false, I would happily drop it, and if a better model were offered in its place, I would happily adopt that. That's what science is. It changes when the evidence changes, or new evidence becomes available. Your position, however, relies an a dogmatic assumption of certain truths, and then a systematic attack on anything that runs counter to those truths. I have seriously never seen anyone other than you, and one other person here, posit that gravity does not exist.

So, I wouldn't consider this a "cutting both ways".

[enoob57]

 

I postulate a naturalistic world view, because there are a lot of parts of it that we do understand, so there's no compelling reason to fill any of those gaps with God (or Allah, the FSM, fleems, or anything else).

That being said, your approach to this and mine are not the same. I do not dogmatically believe in evolution. If evolution were definitively proven to be false, I would happily drop it, and if a better model were offered in its place, I would happily adopt that. That's what science is. It changes when the evidence changes, or new evidence becomes available. Your position, however, relies an a dogmatic assumption of certain truths, and then a systematic attack on anything that runs counter to those truths. I have seriously never seen anyone other than you, and one other person here, posit that gravity does not exist.

So, I wouldn't consider this a "cutting both ways".

 

 It is a matter of dominion and authority of the capture and rule game... pathetic in itself the war is being waged over real estate that in and of itself

testifies of end! So basically your hope is established in an end of all things.  Hope itself becomes an hypocrisy of useless fodder and time pitches to

an empty set.... I always try to wear the shoes of another but yours I will not put on... Love, Steven

[RobbyPants]

I always try to wear the shoes of another but yours I will not put on...

I was like that too, for a long time. I wouldn't consider any idea that would lead to the conclusion of God not being real. I totally get that.

[enoob57]

 

I always try to wear the shoes of another but yours I will not put on...

I was like that too, for a long time. I wouldn't consider any idea that would lead to the conclusion of God not being real. I totally get that.

 

You only gave up the idea of God BUT I cannot deny His Presence within my being testified to me by Word,

signs, answered prayers and daily fellowship of His Own Spirit...  As God's Word is always fulfilled-

1 John 2:19

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us,

they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made

manifest, that none of them were of us.

NKJV

as this capsule of truth wedges the eternal reality-> those born of God cannot leave the New Born reality

the we are in and truly God becomes our only choice for all eternity as we are sealed with His Spirit

in such existence... Love, Steven

[Guest]

I always try to wear the shoes of another but yours I will not put on...

 

I was like that too, for a long time. I wouldn't consider any idea that would lead to the conclusion of God not being real. I totally get that.

 

~

 

There Are Shoes

 

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Matthew 16:24

 

And Then There Are Shoes

 

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Matthew 7:13

[GoldenEagle]

 

I always try to wear the shoes of another but yours I will not put on...

I was like that too, for a long time. I wouldn't consider any idea that would lead to the conclusion of God not being real. I totally get that.

 

 

Our purpose here at Worthy is sharing the Gospel and truth found in God's Word the Bible.

 

Perhaps Robby you don't understand the purpose of the OC... The OC isn't simply a forum to discuss various topics that come to mind. The OC's purpose is to allow others to ask questions about the Christian faith and point others to Jesus Christ.

 

I will ask again... Is your purpose here at Worthy to point people away from Jesus Christ and convince others that you were right in turning away from God?

 

An excerpt from the Terms of Service...

The outer Court is an area where we allow anyone who wishes to learn more about our belief to ask questons and learn.

 

God bless,

GE

[RobbyPants]

Perhaps Robby you don't understand the purpose of the OC... The OC isn't simply a forum to discuss various topics that come to mind. The OC's purpose is to allow others to ask questions about the Christian faith and point others to Jesus Christ.

When I first joined, I read the ToS (to make sure non-believers posting was permitted), and a thread sticked at the top called From what I gathered in that thread, the purpose of the OC was for believers to explain and defend their beliefs to non-believers.

1. In Outer Court, those who don't share our beliefs are welcome, and it is a place where they can air their views and discuss and argue about the stance they take.

2. As Believers we should extend to them every courtesy, especially as there was a time when we too did not know the Saviour.

3. Sometimes the interaction can get a bit heated as each party seeks to present their view, this is inevitable if people are passionate about what they are discussing...nothing wrong with a bit of heat.

4. What is not acceptable is when Believers get riled because they feel their faith is under attack and retort out of anger with belittling and insulting language attacking the person.

5. This section of the Boards should be covered with prayer and grace, and this should be evident in the way we treat our guests and unbelieving friends.

6. The only Believers who should be here are those that are happy to engage Unbelievers, and realise that their faith will be under attack and strongly challenged and questioned. (I suggest you pray about this)

Recently despite many gentle warnings and the closure of threads some Believers continue to disregard basic good manners and friendliness, and just as Atheists and others here have to abide by the house rules, how much more should we be an example.

Therefore please understand that this continued behaviour is unacceptable, a really poor example of Christian virtue and has to stop.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

For added consideration....

7. Constantly demanding to know from Unbelievers about their intent at being here is also not a very friendly approach...those that have obviously come here to mock and play games do not stay for long anyway, and those that stay happily distance themselves from these fellow Unbelievers. We should recognise this and learn to differentiate.

It was that first point that Botz posted that made me think it was okay to explain my side of things.

If you are specifically referencing my post to Enoob57, I said what I said, because when he said that he "would not put on my shoes", that tells me he is unwilling to consider my point of view, whereas I am considering both. I certainly don't expect him to accept my point of view, but if he won't consider it, then it is impossible to carry on a discussion.

Personally, I feel I have been polite and courteous, as per the ToS, I haven't used profanity or specifically been disrespectful to God or believers.

I will ask again... Is your purpose here at Worthy to point people away from Jesus Christ and convince others that you were right in turning away from God?

No, I don't think that would work, even if it were my purpose. I have two main purposes here:

1) I wanted to find a place where I would find differing points of view. It is one thing to read about what others believe, and it is another thing to be able to actually discuss with them their beliefs. I think it is more productive for me to gain a better understanding.

2)When I see any misconceptions about certain things (what the word "atheism" is or means, for example), I like to try to clear it up. Also, I can give my own anecdotal point of view in any of the threads that are specifically directed toward non-believers.

[Fez]

 

Perhaps Robby you don't understand the purpose of the OC... The OC isn't simply a forum to discuss various topics that come to mind. The OC's purpose is to allow others to ask questions about the Christian faith and point others to Jesus Christ.

When I first joined, I read the ToS (to make sure non-believers posting was permitted), and a thread sticked at the top called From what I gathered in that thread, the purpose of the OC was for believers to explain and defend their beliefs to non-believers.

 

Nope, we are a Ministry site and we are here to spread the gospel, not defend it. We do not have to. The site was never developed to amuse non believers, it was developed in order people may be ministered to.

 

Believing comes from hearing the Word. That is all we as believers are called to do by the Lord Jesus Christ, speaking the Word.

 

Discussing evolution, the big bang, gravity, etc, has nothing to do with speaking the Word. 

 

Occasionally over the years people have had to be reminded of that in the outer court.

[alphaparticle]

Discussing nature and physical laws can certainly be directed related to discussing our Creator. Further, it seems odd that we wouldn't discuss scientific things on the "Faith vs Science" subforum doesn't it? Maybe gravity doesn't seem relevant to you, but it is certainly relevant to some of us. Just some food for thought.

[RobbyPants]

Nope, we are a Ministry site and we are here to spread the gospel, not defend it. We do not have to. The site was never developed to amuse non believers, it was developed in order people may be ministered to.

 

Believing comes from hearing the Word. That is all we as believers are called to do by the Lord Jesus Christ, speaking the Word.

 

Discussing evolution, the big bang, gravity, etc, has nothing to do with speaking the Word. 

 

Occasionally over the years people have had to be reminded of that in the outer court.

Well, yes, I know that's the nature of the site, but the site is partitioned into several areas: namely, the Inner and Outer Court. When I joined, I read a posted by one of the moderators, Botz:

 

It seems evident that a number of things need to be pointed out:

1. In Outer Court, those who don't share our beliefs are welcome, and it is a place where they can air their views and discuss and argue about the stance they take.

2. As Believers we should extend to them every courtesy, especially as there was a time when we too did not know the Saviour.

3. Sometimes the interaction can get a bit heated as each party seeks to present their view, this is inevitable if people are passionate about what they are discussing...nothing wrong with a bit of heat.

4. What is not acceptable is when Believers get riled because they feel their faith is under attack and retort out of anger with belittling and insulting language attacking the person.

5. This section of the Boards should be covered with prayer and grace, and this should be evident in the way we treat our guests and unbelieving friends.

6. The only Believers who should be here are those that are happy to engage Unbelievers, and realise that their faith will be under attack and strongly challenged and questioned. (I suggest you pray about this)

Recently despite many gentle warnings and the closure of threads some Believers continue to disregard basic good manners and friendliness, and just as Atheists and others here have to abide by the house rules, how much more should we be an example.

Therefore please understand that this continued behaviour is unacceptable, a really poor example of Christian virtue and has to stop.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

For added consideration....

7. Constantly demanding to know from Unbelievers about their intent at being here is also not a very friendly approach...those that have obviously come here to mock and play games do not stay for long anyway, and those that stay happily distance themselves from these fellow Unbelievers. We should recognise this and learn to differentiate.

(emphasis, mine)

So, while I understand the nature of the site is ministry, I came to the Outer Court in good faith to discuss my stance directly with people to learn more about theirs. The reason I am here and not somewhere else is I wanted to discuss beliefs that I don't hold with people who hold them, rather than read about there elsewhere, where there is no one to better explain their stance. I can assure you that I am not here for my own amusement at other people's expense; just to have good discussion with others who would like to do the same.

Was my understanding of Botz's post incorrect?