An interesting thought about judaism.

[Taker]

So I've been doing some thinking. Please, these are only thoughts that pertain to the origin of the word "Christianity". And hopefully you can accept this news openly.

 

So an interesting question was raised to me a long time ago. How come the Jews don't believe in Jesus if Jesus was a Jew? The answer is a little hard to explain to a non-believer.  I mean why are we "Christians" the ones who believe in a Jew calling ourselves this? As far as I know the word "christian" doesn't appear in the bible anywhere.

 

The answer is, orthodox Jews Believe the lie that Jesus was not the son of man and, therefore, had no authority over scripture. So why aren't we who believe in Christ called Jews? Or why did we allow a division like this to occur?

 

If you ask most people a simple question, "was Jesus a christian". They would most likely answer "yes" without much thought. They wouldn't realize that Christianity would Imply that we follow Jesus Christ. Jesus saying "I am a devout Christian" would mean that he devotes himself to himself. Only a sinner would devote themselves to themselves.

 

I think that a common miss conception is that when Jesus died he stopped being a Jew and became a christian. Or, he followed himself to heaven per say.

 

All I am asking is, why did we allow orthodox Jews to take the title of "We are the real Jews, God's chosen people" when we know that they believe a lie rather than the truth?

[Qnts2]

So I've been doing some thinking. Please, these are only thoughts that pertain to the origin of the word "Christianity". And hopefully you can accept this news openly.

 

So an interesting question was raised to me a long time ago. How come the Jews don't believe in Jesus if Jesus was a Jew? The answer is a little hard to explain to a non-believer.  I mean why are we "Christians" the ones who believe in a Jew calling ourselves this? As far as I know the word "christian" doesn't appear in the bible anywhere.

 

The answer is, orthodox Jews Believe the lie that Jesus was not the son of man and, therefore, had no authority over scripture. So why aren't we who believe in Christ called Jews? Or why did we allow a division like this to occur?

 

If you ask most people a simple question, "was Jesus a christian". They would most likely answer "yes" without much thought. They wouldn't realize that Christianity would Imply that we follow Jesus Christ. Jesus saying "I am a devout Christian" would mean that he devotes himself to himself. Only a sinner would devote themselves to themselves.

 

I think that a common miss conception is that when Jesus died he stopped being a Jew and became a christian. Or, he followed himself to heaven per say.

 

All I am asking is, why did we allow orthodox Jews to take the title of "We are the real Jews, God's chosen people" when we know that they believe a lie rather than the truth?

 

You are confusing two different things.

 

Christianity is a religion. Jewish is an ethnic group.

 

A Jewish person can practice Christianity, or Buddhism, or be an atheist. Or they can practice Judaism. They still remain Jewish no matter which religion they practice.

 

A Christian is a person who practices Christianity as their belief system. A Christian (believer in Jesus), can be Black, White, Oriental, Native American, or they can be Jewish, Irish, Italian, Egyptian, Gypsy/Romani, etc etc etc. 

[Taker]

So, If my parents decided to become Jewish before I was born does that make me Jewish?

[Qnts2]

So, If my parents decided to become Jewish before I was born does that make me Jewish?

Yes, there is a conversion to Judaism.

 

Judaism is based on the Mosaic covenant, given to the Jewish people at Mt. Sinai, so to be obligated to the Mosaic covenant, one becomes a member of the Jewish people.

 

I know this idea is difficult as it is not the way most people think of this, but there are other cultures which see this. A person who is not Native American can go thru a ritual which makes the person a member of the tribe. Of course the way the U.S. government views Native Americans, as a race, the government won't recognize a person as Native American, but the Native Americans for hundreds of years allowed a person to become a member. It was not uncommon for a Native American of one tribe, to switch tribal affiliation, so a person born a Crow can become a Lakota.  

 

A person who obligates themselves to the Mosaic covenant, views the God of Israel as their God and the Jewish people as their people, and undergoes circumcision for males (as well as the mikvah) and is accepted by the Jewish people as a member of the people, is then Jewish. For an OT example, we have Caleb, and Ruth as well as others.

[Taker]

Okay, so my parents obligate to the Mosaic covenant. I am born. I have Judaism in my genes?

 

As soon as I walk into a synagogue I renounce the Jewish faith, and devote my life to Buddhism until I die. Do I still die as a Jewish man?

[Qnts2]

Okay, so my parents obligate to the Mosaic covenant. I am born. I have Judaism in my genes?

 

As soon as I walk into a synagogue I renounce the Jewish faith, and devote my life to Buddhism until I die. Do I still die as a Jewish man?

Well, Judaism isn't in your genes, but as a member of the Jewish people you are obligated to obey the Mosaic law for all of your life and for all of your descendents. Since it is a covenant with God, should you renounce the Mosaic covenant, you are not just violating the covenant but also renouncing God.

 

So, essentially, your actions would make you a Jewish man, who has sinned. You would be a sinner. But still Jewish. Sadly, the OT has stories of the Jewish people disobeying the Mosaic covenant, and even worshipping foreign gods, and for that the Jewish people were first corrected by God, so they might repent, and then punished according to what God warned would happen in the OT, but they are still Jews according to scripture.

 

There is a pattern in the OT, that whenever the people would sin, first came warnings to turn from their wicked ways, then God would pronounce a judgement, and while pronouncing the judgement would also include a ray of hope, and this hope was usually a prophesy of the future, including a Messianic prophesy of future hope.

 

In scripture, there are the children of Israel, and people who are not children of Israel, called Gentiles. There are many Messianic prophesies in the OT talking about how the Gentiles would be drawn to the Messiah.   One particular prophesy which is repeated in the NT: 

 

Deut 32:21

They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

 

The people who have angered God are the children of Israel, who have gone after other gods. So, God has determined to form a foolish nation out of people who are not a people to move the Jewish people to be jealous.

 

In the OT, the word for nation is 'goy', and unlike our modern English, nation/goy does not mean a country like England, or the USA, or Canada. It refers to a people group, or we might say an ethnic group. The Egyptians in scripture are a goy, which means they are an ethnic group from a common descendent. Whether they live in the land of Egypt or not, they are still a people group/ethnic group. Of course the Jewish people are also a people group, whether they live in the land given to them or not, they are still a nation/people group/ethnic group.  

 

This foolish nation is a people group formed from people 'who are not a people', or a new people group made up of people from all different people groups. In the NT, the verse is applied to Christians. The foolish nation are believers in Jesus, who come from all different ethnic groups to form a new foolish group of people. And this new 'foolish nation' was planned, chosen and formed by God for a purpose, one of which is to make the Jewish people jealous, but we know also to serve God and to be a light to the nations.    

[JohnD]

I believe I understand your take on this, Taker.

 

I used to struggle with this.

 

I have long had the identification with Jews and Judaism resulting from my relationship with the Jewish Messiah.

 

I even thought believing in the Jewish Messiah made one Jewish.

 

Then I came across several passages that indicated I did not go an extra step...

 

Physical / Spiritual.

 

Faith in Jesus makes us all Spirit Jews of the Spirit House of Israel whose Jerusalem is from above (Galatians 4:21-31 and Galatians 6:13-16).

 

Philippians 3:3 (KJV)
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

 

Romans 2:28-29 (KJV)
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise (Jew means "praise") is not of men, but of God.

 

Genesis 29:35 (KJV)
35 And she conceived again, and bare a son: and she said, Now will I praise the LORD: therefore she called his name Judah; and left bearing.

 

Those born of Abraham Isaac and Jacob are physical Jews. Converts to Judaism are technically only proselytes and never considered physical Jews.

 

Jews and Gentiles who are born again are Spirit Jews / Spirit Israel... observe:

 

Romans 9:6 (KJV)
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

 

Nonsense / double talk unless he is saying not all physical Israel was Spirit Israel.

[clark thompson]

They first became known as Christians in Antioch it is mentioned in Acts. It was a term used to make fun of them by calling them Christ- likers saying they are acting like Jesus but, we s believers conciders this as a complement so, it stayed before it was called the Way because Jesus was the Truth and the Way.

[nebula]

So I've been doing some thinking. Please, these are only thoughts that pertain to the origin of the word "Christianity". And hopefully you can accept this news openly.

 

So an interesting question was raised to me a long time ago. 1. How come the Jews don't believe in Jesus if Jesus was a Jew? The answer is a little hard to explain to a non-believer.  2. I mean why are we "Christians" the ones who believe in a Jew calling ourselves this? As far as I know the word "christian" doesn't appear in the bible anywhere.

 

The answer is, orthodox Jews Believe the lie that Jesus was not the son of man and, therefore, had no authority over scripture. 3. So why aren't we who believe in Christ called Jews? Or why did we allow a division like this to occur?

 

4. If you ask most people a simple question, "was Jesus a christian". They would most likely answer "yes" without much thought. They wouldn't realize that Christianity would Imply that we follow Jesus Christ. Jesus saying "I am a devout Christian" would mean that he devotes himself to himself. Only a sinner would devote themselves to themselves.

 

I think that a common miss conception is that when Jesus died he stopped being a Jew and became a christian. Or, he followed himself to heaven per say.

 

5. All I am asking is, why did we allow orthodox Jews to take the title of "We are the real Jews, God's chosen people" when we know that they believe a lie rather than the truth?

 

Hi Taker. I put numbers by your questions and statements so that you can know what points I am responding to below.

 

1. Jews do not believe in Jesus for the same reasons Gentiles don't believe in Jesus. Of course, nearly 2000 years of Christian persecution against Jews hasn't helped matters any.

 

2. We became Christians by believing in Jesus. As was mentioned above, the Bible tells us that the disciples of Jesus were first called "Christians" in Antioch. Before that, they called themselves "followers of The Way."

 

3. We are not called Jews because we are not bound to the Mosaic covenant. In Acts, there were Jewish believers in Jesus who demanded the Gentile believers become Jews in order to be saved. But the Apostles determined that Gentiles did not need to become Jews - being bound to the Law like they were.

 

4. True, Jesus was never a Christian.

 

5. Romans 11 explains how the natural branches (the Jews) were cut off from the olive tree as a result of unbelief, and the wild branches (Gentiles) were grafted in. So, while we became God's people by being grafted in, we are still wild branches (Gentiles) and not natural (Jews).

[Taker]

^ Thank you Nebula, You have answered my questions in a way that makes sense.