Speaking in tongues 2

[rebbell]

 

Paul lists spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12-14, Romans 12, and Ephesians 4. Of the three, 1 Corinthians is generally believed to have been penned first, Romans second, and Ephesians last (in order of the letters we are speaking of here).

 

The conditions in Corinth was worst. To bring order there, Paul came up with a condition of interpretation(that is not found in the book of Acts or elsewhere) hoping that speaking of unknown tongue prompted by person's spirit would cease as church grew in spirituality as it was sign meant for unbelievers.

 

I believe it ceased there soon as people took the advice of Paul to prefer prophesying. We don't see this phenomenon of speaking in an unknown tongue either in Rome or Ephesian subsequently, and it is not listed in the corresponding epistles.

Tongues did in fact cease. They all spoke in known lanquages and they are listed in Acts 2:9. What they are trying to do today is false. I was once told by a person that he could help me learn how to speak in tongues, say what?! Apparently to this person and his church, tongues isn't a gift from God! I pray for all to come to the understanding of Gods word.lol

 

Curious: who said what they are trying to do today is false. Can you see into their heart? Who are you that judges another mans servant?  However, I don't agree with someone saying they can teach you. NO, that is the spirit in you speaking forth to GOD. I do believe we must decern the spirits these days. Either what is going on follows God word and if it doesn't beware.

 

God bless

[Knowingtruth]

Hi KT, the Lord bless...I hardly think any gift of the HS is of lower or higher order...nothing in the scriptures seems to categorize them in this way.

 

 

I consider that as of lower order because Paul prefers prophesying instead of speaking in an unknown language.

 

 

 

In fact, Paul says he spoke in tongues more than all of them and that it is good to desire to have this gift as well but it is God who administers them as He wills. But having said that, I do agree with you 100% that this modern phenomena is largely motivated by contagion and false teaching (like, that one MUST speak in such a tongue to be saved...totally non-scriptural)...in fact in one Word of Faith church I went to a few times the Pastor there teaches his flock to do so and trains them to fall down when a Pastor touches their forehead (knowing there is always a catcher).

[Knowingtruth]

 

Hi KT, the Lord bless...I hardly think any gift of the HS is of lower or higher order...nothing in the scriptures seems to categorize them in this way.

 

I consider that as of lower order because Paul prefers prophesying instead of speaking in an unknown language.

 

 

 

 

In fact, Paul says he spoke in tongues more than all of them and that it is good to desire to have this gift as well but it is God who administers them as He wills.

 

That is with regard to personal prayer, not in a church.

 

 

 

 

But having said that, I do agree with you 100% that this modern phenomena is largely motivated by contagion and false teaching (like, that one MUST speak in such a tongue to be saved...totally non-scriptural)...in fact in one Word of Faith church I went to a few times the Pastor there teaches his flock to do so and trains them to fall down when a Pastor touches their forehead (knowing there is always a catcher).

 

 

Both terrible and amusing!

 

 

 

So you have not experienced this utterance in the Spirit

 

I mean, not experiencing utterance in my spirit; I do not agree that it is the Spirit.

 

 

 

(which is speaking TO God in mysteries even to the speaker, and is not God speaking through a person) and maybe have not witnessed a bonafide example but many have never seen someone actually healed either but God still does this as He wills...

 

I believe healing is possible without the ability to speak in an unknown tongue. I believe both the healer and the healed will not be saved if they are not obedient servants of God. Sincerely, I don't like to be healed no matter what the condition is though a person who claims to speak in an unknown tongue!

 

 

 

The Bible does say this will cease when the perfect comes so I guess this is the line of demarcation...IMO this will not occur until the perfect comes (not to debate this though we could on a separate thread) when Paul and even those saved Christians he was speaking to will together be face to face...then none of the gifts will be necessary because we who are saved shall know even as we are known and we shall be like Him...just my worthless $.02

 

I main thurst of this thread is to indicate that the gift of speaking an unknown tongue that required an interpreter observed in Corinth ceased for good for centuries.,,,OK in exchange for a penny! lol!

Edited August 17, 2013 by GoldenEagle
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[Knowingtruth]

 

Paul lists spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12-14, Romans 12, and Ephesians 4. Of the three, 1 Corinthians is generally believed to have been penned first, Romans second, and Ephesians last (in order of the letters we are speaking of here).

 

The conditions in Corinth was worst. To bring order there, Paul came up with a condition of interpretation(that is not found in the book of Acts or elsewhere) hoping that speaking of unknown tongue prompted by person's spirit would cease as church grew in spirituality as it was sign meant for unbelievers.

 

I believe it ceased there soon as people took the advice of Paul to prefer prophesying. We don't see this phenomenon of speaking in an unknown tongue either in Rome or Ephesian subsequently, and it is not listed in the corresponding epistles.

Tongues did in fact cease. They all spoke in known lanquages and they are listed in Acts 2:9. What they are trying to do today is false. I was once told by a person that he could help me learn how to speak in tongues, say what?! Apparently to this person and his church, tongues isn't a gift from God! I pray for all to come to the understanding of Gods word.lol

 

I believe the speaking an unknown tongue followed by interpretation observed in Corith ceased in the course of time. Speaking in a known language unknown to a person may have continued though I have not observed that personally.

[Knowingtruth]

I would be very interested to see where in scripture He tells us that tongues has ceased. I am not interested in human logic, but scripture.

 

The very fact that Paul discouraged that type of practice, and his subsequent letters indicated in the OP do not include them along with the entire Bible are very good proof that it was a local phenomenon observed in the notorious Corinth! He also hints at its ceasing--when, a matter of discerment.

[Knowingtruth]

and these signs shall follow those that BELIEVE:

they shall cast out devils, they shall lay on hands and heal the sick, they shall speak with new tongues, they shall take up serpents and it shall not harm them, if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them

 

I can't recall the scripture reference right now, someone help me out

 

God bless

 

This is not related to speaking in unknown tongue observed in Corinth that required interpretation

[Guest Butero]

Paul lists spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12-14, Romans 12, and Ephesians 4. Of the three, 1 Corinthians is generally believed to have been penned first, Romans second, and Ephesians last (in order of the letters we are speaking of here).

 

The conditions in Corinth was worst. To bring order there, Paul came up with a condition of interpretation(that is not found in the book of Acts or elsewhere) hoping that speaking of unknown tongue prompted by person's spirit would cease as church grew in spirituality as it was sign meant for unbelievers.

 

I believe it ceased there soon as people took the advice of Paul to prefer prophesying. We don't see this phenomenon of speaking in an unknown tongue either in Rome or Ephesian subsequently, and it is not listed in the corresponding epistles.

I completely disagree.  Paul was discussing differen't things to the differen't churches according to their individual needs.  Just because Paul doesn't mention the topic of tongues in each epistle, doesn't mean there weren't people speaking in tongues in all of them? 

 

They estimate that the book of 1 Corinthians was written in A.D. 59., 2 Corinthians in A.D. 60, Romans in A.D. 60, and Ephesians in A.D. 64.  In the meantime, the book of Acts covers a span from A.D. 33 to A.D. 62.  Miracles were still taking place in A.D. 62.  Paul was on the isle of Melita, and there he encountered a bite from a poisonous viper and didn't even become sick.  He also healed many that were sick.  As of that time, after the book of Romans was written, we know the gifts of the Spirit were still in operation. 

 

Now, lets go back to the beginning of all of this, to the day of Pentecost.  After the initial infilling took place, Peter made the following comment about the Holy Ghost baptism in Acts 2:38,39

 

38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

Peter made this comment in approximately 33 A.D.  You are claiming that Paul teaches on the gifts of the Spirit to the church at Corinth in A.D. 59, and by A.D. 60, this is all done away with.  That would seem to contradict what Peter said about the gift being to you, your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call?  This doesn't even extend to the next generation. 

 

Something else you are getting wrong here is that there is a difference between the prayer language of tongues and the gift of tongues.  On the day of Pentecost, there were about 100 people, all believers, gathered together in an upper room.  When the Holy Ghost fell on them, they began speaking in tongues.  This occured while they were still in the upper room, and they were all believers.  If this was just a sign to the lost, it would make no sense.  Apparently, they left the upper room, and continue praising God in languages unknown to them?  The disciples were not preaching to the multitude, but were praising God.  Notice what it says in Acts 2:11.

 

11  Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

 

It never says they were preaching formal messages to them.  They were just continuing to do as they had while in the upper room.  When we read of the gift of tongues in 1 Corinthians, he is speaking of messages being given out in tongues.  Someone would receive a message, and it would require an interpreter.  Paul was telling them they needed to do things in an orderly fashion.  Neither the prayer language in tongues, nor the prophetic tongues have ceased.  You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I completely disagree with it. 

[Guest Butero]

I would be very interested to see where in scripture He tells us that tongues has ceased. I am not interested in human logic, but scripture.

 

The very fact that Paul discouraged that type of practice, and his subsequent letters indicated in the OP do not include them along with the entire Bible are very good proof that it was a local phenomenon observed in the notorious Corinth! He also hints at its ceasing--when, a matter of discerment.

 

Paul never discouraged speaking in tongues.  He only told them to do things in an orderly fashion.  Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14:18,

 

"I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all."

 

The issue is doing things in order.  Moving down to verses 27 and 28, it says,

 

If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.  But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church:  and let him speak to himself and to God.

 

This is not discouraging people from speaking in tongues. 

[Knowingtruth]

Hi KT, the Lord bless...I hardly think any gift of the HS is of lower or higher order...nothing in the scriptures seems to categorize them in this way. In fact, Paul says he spoke in tongues more than all of them and that it is good to desire to have this gift as well but it is God who administers them as He wills. But having said that, I do agree with you 100% that this modern phenomena is largely motivated by contagion and false teaching (like, that one MUST speak in such a tongue to be saved...totally non-scriptural)...in fact in one Word of Faith church I went to a few times the Pastor there teaches his flock to do so and trains them to fall down when a Pastor touches their forehead (knowing there is always a catcher). 

 

Though the prophetic gifts include all the speaking gifts (even preaching and teaching are gifts as far as I can see) the number of actual "prophetic utterances" I am aware of can be counted on one hand in my 20+ years...on the other hand just turn on TBN or Daystar and hear 10 a day most of which are good human guesses or outright false prophecies that do not come to pass (and these are allegedly Christian leaders...what a shame they bring to the name). 

 

So you have not experienced this utterance in the Spirit (which is speaking TO God in mysteries even to the speaker, and is not God speaking through a person) and maybe have not witnessed a bonafide example but many have never seen someone actually healed either but God still does this as He wills...

 

The Bible does say this will cease when the perfect comes so I guess this is the line of demarcation...IMO this will not occur until the perfect comes (not to debate this though we could on a separate thread) when Paul and even those saved Christians he was speaking to will together be face to face...then none of the gifts will be necessary because we who are saved shall know even as we are known and we shall be like Him...just my worthless $.02

 

In His love

 

Paul 

Hi Paul,

 

Please refer to my in connection with this posting since the earlier ones got messed up.

[Knowingtruth]

I completely disagree.  Paul was discussing differen't things to the differen't churches according to their individual needs.  Just because Paul doesn't mention the topic of tongues in each epistle, doesn't mean there weren't people speaking in tongues in all of them? 

 

They estimate that the book of 1 Corinthians was written in A.D. 59., 2 Corinthians in A.D. 60, Romans in A.D. 60, and Ephesians in A.D. 64.  In the meantime, the book of Acts covers a span from A.D. 33 to A.D. 62.  Miracles were still taking place in A.D. 62.  Paul was on the isle of Melita, and there he encountered a bite from a poisonous viper and didn't even become sick.  He also healed many that were sick.  As of that time, after the book of Romans was written, we know the gifts of the Spirit were still in operation. 

 

Now, lets go back to the beginning of all of this, to the day of Pentecost.  After the initial infilling took place, Peter made the following comment about the Holy Ghost baptism in Acts 2:38,39

 

38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

Peter made this comment in approximately 33 A.D.  You are claiming that Paul teaches on the gifts of the Spirit to the church at Corinth in A.D. 59, and by A.D. 60, this is all done away with.  That would seem to contradict what Peter said about the gift being to you, your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call?  This doesn't even extend to the next generation. 

 

 

I think you are misreading me. I am not disputing anything you have written above. There are two aspects in speaking in tongue: use of existing foreign language that is unknown to the speaker but understood by others, and the second one that was observed in Corinth that  of unknown language that required an interpreter. These two people tend to mix up and cause confusion. I am referring to the second one in my thread.

 

 

 

Something else you are getting wrong here is that there is a difference between the prayer language of tongues and the gift of tongues.  On the day of Pentecost, there were about 100 people, all believers, gathered together in an upper room.  When the Holy Ghost fell on them, they began speaking in tongues.  This occured while they were still in the upper room, and they were all believers.  If this was just a sign to the lost, it would make no sense.  Apparently, they left the upper room, and continue praising God in languages unknown to them?  The disciples were not preaching to the multitude, but were praising God.  Notice what it says in Acts 2:11.

 

11  Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

 

It never says they were preaching formal messages to them.  They were just continuing to do as they had while in the upper room.

 

 

Yes, this is all with regard to known language given utterance by the Holy Spirit.

 

 

When we read of the gift of tongues in 1 Corinthians, he is speaking of messages being given out in tongues.  Someone would receive a message, and it would require an interpreter.  Paul was telling them they needed to do things in an orderly fashion.  Neither the prayer language in tongues, nor the prophetic tongues have ceased.  You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I completely disagree with it.

 

This brings the difference. It was speaking of unknown tongue that Paul did not prefer. This did cease as they were asked to prefer prophesying; It has continued.