evolution definition and other issues

[Ninevite]

After the account given in Genesis, the Bible starts to give us some numbers, such as the ages of men when their sons are born (Adam was 130 when Seth was born). These numbers continue on up until after the flood. We are given numbers in regard to when temples were built, when the Israelites fled Egypt and so on and so forth.

 

It takes a little effort, but anyone can do it...you simply follow these numbers and you can calculate an aproximate age of the Earth. James Ussher came up with 4004bc for the creation, Johannes Kepler came up with 3992bc and Isaac Newton (probably rounding it off) asserts 4000bc.

 

Those are some "big name" estimates, though thousands upon thousands have calculated the age using the "Biblical Formula". You basically come up with a number close to 4000bc, add the 2000 years after Christ and you get roughly 6000 years for the age of the Earth.

 

Many argue against it, but it is important to me because this is what we get when we read God's word. If we don't try to reason as men and trust what God actually said, this is what the Bible actually says. Nothing added, or taken away.

 

The Bible begins and ends like a million other stories you may have read or seen played out on screen in movies. The story told is one of a fight between good and evil. Good creates everything, evil corrupts it, good comes up with a plan, the plan works and good wins. While I do not hold the belief that this is a salvation issue, I believe it is wrong to add billions of years to God's word where it does not exist and is unecessary.

[Guest ninhao]

 

Ninevite, on 11 Sept 2013 - 12:34 AM, said:

After the account given in Genesis, the Bible starts to give us some numbers, such as the ages of men when their sons are born (Adam was 130 when Seth was born). These numbers continue on up until after the flood. We are given numbers in regard to when temples were built, when the Israelites fled Egypt and so on and so forth.

It takes a little effort, but anyone can do it...you simply follow these numbers and you can calculate an aproximate age of the Earth. James Ussher came up with 4004bc for the creation, Johannes Kepler came up with 3992bc and Isaac Newton (probably rounding it off) asserts 4000bc.

Those are some "big name" estimates, though thousands upon thousands have calculated the age using the "Biblical Formula". You basically come up with a number close to 4000bc, add the 2000 years after Christ and you get roughly 6000 years for the age of the Earth.

 

 

The Bible doesn’t comprehensively record every direct descendant in its genealogies. It would be good for you to investigate this before using this argument against an old Earth.

 

 

Many argue against it, but it is important to me because this is what we get when we read God's word. If we don't try to reason as men and trust what God actually said, this is what the Bible actually says. Nothing added, or taken away.

 

 

This is the problem. Because you are assigning a numerical time value to the Bible accounts it has become a stumbling block. The Bible is snap shots of Human history not a comprehensive account of its entirety. You are certainly reading the scriptures “adding nor taking nothing away” but the Author of the Bible Himself didn’t add all the information you require to make Earth age arguments.

 

 

The Bible begins and ends like a million other stories you may have read or seen played out on screen in movies. The story told is one of a fight between good and evil. Good creates everything, evil corrupts it, good comes up with a plan, the plan works and good wins. While I do not hold the belief that this is a salvation issue, I believe it is wrong to add billions of years to God's word where it does not exist and is unecessary.

 

 

I advise you to investigate this further. Have you researched why summing genealogies isn’t accurate?  Remember our battle is against unbelief and everyone has evidence for God as per Romans 1. By all means if it is important to your faith I understand why you insist on a young Earth; but arguing Earth age with non-believers creates an obstacle to presenting the Gospel which is unnecessary. I’m still not sure why you think an Old Earth weakens the Creation account.  

[asper]

Even though I think it can be shown that certain people are skipped in genealogies of the Bible for certain reasons: that is not worth my time in discussing it.

 

But I would like to bring up is a couple of points.

 

One,

(I bring up the first one as something to consider, I do not know which is right)

 

The exact age of the earth isn’t really listed if you look closely at the Genesis account.

 

Ge 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

 

It could have been a few seconds or billions of years before verse three comes about.

Notice that He created heaven at what appears about the same time as the earth.

 

If it was a few seconds before verse 3 then heaven is only about six days older then mankind.

 

3 ¶  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4  And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

 

Two,

When God made adam and eve they were created as adults.

As far as I can tell all living things were created in an adult stage.

 

So why would God create a universe in an infant stage and just wait for billions of years for it to be ready so He can carry out his will?

 

I am not one to believe something because my Christian brothers and sisters do, nor am I inclined to believe something because something my forefathers in the faith believed, but I try to stick completely with the Bible.

 

The choice is to trust in God’s Word or to trust in man. (yourself or others)

 

You decide

 

Jer 17:5  Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

 

 

1Pe 1:25  But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

 

God bless,

Tony

Edited September 10, 2013 by asper

[Guest ninhao]

Even though I think it can be shown that certain people are skipped in genealogies of the Bible for certain reasons: that is not worth my time in discussing it.

 

But I would like to bring up is a couple of points.

 

One,

(I bring up the first one as something to consider, I do not know which is right)

 

The exact age of the earth isn’t really listed if you look closely at the Genesis account.

 

Ge 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

 

It could have been a few seconds or billions of years before verse three comes about.

Notice that He created heaven at what appears about the same time as the earth.

 

If it was a few seconds before verse 3 then heaven is only about six days older then mankind.

 

3 ¶  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4  And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

 

Two,

When God made adam and eve they were created as adults.

As far as I can tell all living things were created in an adult stage.

 

So why would God create a universe in an infant stage and just wait for billions of years for it to be ready so He can carry out his will?

 

I am not one to believe something because my Christian brothers and sisters do, nor am I inclined to believe something because something my forefathers in the faith believed, but I try to stick completely with the Bible.

 

The choice is to trust in God’s Word or to trust in man. (yourself or others)

 

You decide

 

Jer 17:5  Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

 

 

1Pe 1:25  But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

 

God bless,

Tony

 

Hello Tony,

 

This is interesting. From the Genesis Creation account we can see the distinct likelihood that all living things weren't Created in adult form. For instance

 

Gen 1:11  And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

 

We can see God designated the Earth to bring forth vegetation.

 

Gen 1:20-21  And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.  (21)  And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

 

We see God Created creatures by letting the waters bring forth.

 

Gen 1:24  And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

 

Creation by letting the Earth bring forth.

 

Gen 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 

We don't see the imagery of progressive Creation with man though.

 

It's food for thought that God didn't Create everything already fully established and we may also note how Eden was formed.

 

Gen 2:8-9  And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.  (9)  And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

 

Eden was planted and grown.

[chloe_fantastic]

 

Let the earth bring forth ... Let the waters bring forth

But what exactly is this phrase supposed to have meant? How are we to know from this text precisely how this process did or didn't occur? I don't see how any theory can be proven or disproven using this particular passage of Scripture.

[Guest ninhao]

 

 

Let the earth bring forth ... Let the waters bring forth

But what exactly is this phrase supposed to have meant? How are we to know from this text precisely how this process did or didn't occur? I don't see how any theory can be proven or disproven using this particular passage of Scripture.

 

 

Hello Chloe this is my point. The passages don't give us enough information to be adamant God Created instantaneously and fully matured; but they may allow a sense that God Created over a period of time using a method of "bringing forth". 

 

What do you think?

[Diatheosis]

We probably need some Hebrew expertise here, to understand the original meanings in the original language.

 

What still I find interesting is that the order of creating is the same as in the evolution theory. Of course, the scripture preceded it, quite awhile actually. So how did those who wrote down the scripture of Genesis know of it without any scientific methods available. Just a lucky guess?

[enoob57]

Having seen several threads now about evolution and Christianity I've come to the conclusion that about half of the disagreement is a semantic one.

 

I have seen a number of interesting notions beyond this though which bolster my impression there is a semantics issue going on.Some argue that evolution necessary entails, by definition, non interaction in biological development. Some object that if I accept evolution that must mean I reject the idea that humans have non materials souls. Here's what I've come to understand by what many mean by the term evolution: evolution is the materialistic worldview that all life, including humans, developed through blind, material processes. Of course accepting such a thing requires assuming that God does not exist as another underlying assumption is that only materials things even exist. On the other hand, I have typically taken the line that by 'evolution' I mean something much more restricted than that, namely, something like common ancestry of all life on earth. Given that, God could intervene at any level, including at some point endowing us with souls. Now, some have complained that my definition doesn't fit with what many evolutionists understand to be evolution. I would take issue with that and say that they are making grandiose metaphysical claims over and above coming up with a very specific scientific hypothesis. However, it doesn't intrinsically bother me (at least any more), to say that I promote a form of intelligent design, insofar as I believe God created the universe with the clear intention of creating humans also.

 

As to a couple common arguments:

 

I don't think God is rendered more or less powerful by using more or less time to create. His power is defined by what He *could* do if He wants to. God *could* create an infinite amount of things, infinitely complicated, in no time at all. That He chose to do it one way vs another doesn't seem relevant to that question.

 

I have also maintained that it is possible to believe the Bible to be true, including Genesis, without taking the creation account as completely historical. I have never found that this threatened the core of the gospel, as I became a Christian believing that Jesus was resurrected from the dead before I came to view the Bible as inspired by God.

Just a simple question - Did God give you permission to think this way in His Word?  Love, Steven

[asper]

Hi Ninhao,

 

As far as I can tell all living things were created in an adult stage.

 

 

I chose my words carefully because I knew that I could not be completely dogmatic about this.

 

But your statement brings up a very good possibility that they were created young but the process would have to be very fast to accomplish it in one day or at least by the end of the week depending on how definite a statement has to be.

 

Ge 1:11  And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12  And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13  And the evening and the morning were the third day.

 

Ge 1:20  And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21  And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22  And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23  And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

 

 

Ge 1:24  And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

24 ¶  And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25  And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

 

31 ¶  And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. 

 

Ge 2:1  Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2  And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

 

 

Even though I suggested that heaven and the earth may be very old, I did not intend to give the impression that all the other things weren’t created in those six days

 

Good talking with you,

 

God bless,

Tony

 

[alphaparticle]

 

Having seen several threads now about evolution and Christianity I've come to the conclusion that about half of the disagreement is a semantic one.

 

I have seen a number of interesting notions beyond this though which bolster my impression there is a semantics issue going on.Some argue that evolution necessary entails, by definition, non interaction in biological development. Some object that if I accept evolution that must mean I reject the idea that humans have non materials souls. Here's what I've come to understand by what many mean by the term evolution: evolution is the materialistic worldview that all life, including humans, developed through blind, material processes. Of course accepting such a thing requires assuming that God does not exist as another underlying assumption is that only materials things even exist. On the other hand, I have typically taken the line that by 'evolution' I mean something much more restricted than that, namely, something like common ancestry of all life on earth. Given that, God could intervene at any level, including at some point endowing us with souls. Now, some have complained that my definition doesn't fit with what many evolutionists understand to be evolution. I would take issue with that and say that they are making grandiose metaphysical claims over and above coming up with a very specific scientific hypothesis. However, it doesn't intrinsically bother me (at least any more), to say that I promote a form of intelligent design, insofar as I believe God created the universe with the clear intention of creating humans also.

 

As to a couple common arguments:

 

I don't think God is rendered more or less powerful by using more or less time to create. His power is defined by what He *could* do if He wants to. God *could* create an infinite amount of things, infinitely complicated, in no time at all. That He chose to do it one way vs another doesn't seem relevant to that question.

 

I have also maintained that it is possible to believe the Bible to be true, including Genesis, without taking the creation account as completely historical. I have never found that this threatened the core of the gospel, as I became a Christian believing that Jesus was resurrected from the dead before I came to view the Bible as inspired by God.

Just a simple question - Did God give you permission to think this way in His Word?  Love, Steven

 

I haven't gotten a sense from the Holy Spirit that I'm doing wrong here, if that is what you mean. If I am hopefully He will let me know sooner than later.