Why are we here?

[JDavis]

I mean in this part of the forum, not why do we exist.

 

As I read through the postings I come to the conclusion that some people have the singular goal of making people view things the same way they do.

 

I believe this is a mistake for a few reasons.

 

First, if someone comes to this part of the forum it is likely they already have a fairly strong reason for believing what it is they believe.  From reading what people write it is clear that people know what they believe and why they believe it.  People in this part of the forum have done their homework for the most part.   Thus it will be much harder to persuade them to your point of view than it would someone that has not really spent much time on the topic. 

 

Second, in a different thread Candice mentioned the "backfire effect".  This is a rather fascinating theory.  In short this is the backfire effect, "in the face of contradictory evidence, beliefs get stronger. Hence, most refutations are useless"  (taken from rationalWiki)

 

This is also from RationalWiki...

 

What should be evident from the studies on the backfire effect is you can never win an argument online. When you start to pull out facts and figures, hyperlinks and quotes, you are actually making the opponent feel as though they are even more sure of their position than before you started the debate. As they match your fervor, the same thing happens in your skull. The backfire effect pushes both of you deeper into your original beliefs

 

 

Finally, the time frame most people stick around for or look for changes in is way too short.  It is very possible that people will change their views, but it will happen gradually over time, forgive the pun, but they will evolve with time.   I am the perfect example of this, a bit more than a decade or so ago I was a Young Earth Creationist making many of the very same arguments that are being made today, light from stars, 2nd law of thermodynamics and more.  But over time based on discussion both in online forums and in person with people my views have changed to where I am now an Old Earth Creationist.  But this change took place over the course of years, not days or even months.

 

One of my favorite Christian apologist likes to say that his goal is to "put a stone in your shoe", not to convert you.  He wants to give you something to think about, something that you will keep thinking about for weeks and months to come.

 

This can never happen though if we are rude and demeaning to one another.  The chances of me taking someone serious that has been condescending towards others is just about nil.   In Acts 17 we read about Paul speaking in the market place of Athens.  His actions there should guide us Christians on this forum. 

 

And I know that I have in the past been short with people, it is easy to get defensive when people are on the attack, and then nothing ever gets accomplished.

 

I love coming to this forum and reading the different points of view.   As I said in a different thread, I am about to turn 50 and I have never met nor spoke to anyone that believed in a geocentric model.    I am truly fascinated by what they have to say and read almost all of it.   I would say there is zero chance of me agreeing with them at this time, but it has clearly given me things to think about and I guess it is entirely possible that in another decade I could join their ranks.  But this can never happen if we cannot have civil, polite discussions. 

 

There are too many locked threads in this forum, that means we are not learning from each other, we are just talking down to each other.

 

Please, let us all agree to share our ideas and our views in a way that encourages discussion!

[RobbyPants]

I think this is a pretty good thread, and you make a lot of good points. I'm not sure if the initial question was rhetorical or literal, but I'm here mostly because I wanted to expose myself to some differing points of view. I had actually planned to post more in the apologetics and theological sections, but found myself posting more in the science sub-forum.

 

I think you're right about the backfire effect, and also that tone can affect how well people receive the information. I read a (obvious, in my opinion) study recently that showed that the more offensive a person is in stating their views, the more other people dig in and become entrenched in their views.

 

Also, I like the stone in the shoe analogy. I've come to realize that few people ever change their minds based on discussion (particularly online discussion), but they may be willing to change part of their view. I've dropped certain flawed parts of beliefs I've held in the past, and have seen others do the same. I did, actually, end up changing my religious views in large part due to online discussion, but I can attest that this was about a two-year transformation for me. It was a long and incremental process. So, putting a stone in the shoe seems like a rather good way to put it.

 

Anyway, nice post. I'd up-vote you, if I could. 

[neil_]

  From reading what people write it is clear that people know what they believe

 

Actually, in my opinion it’s not clear at all. To the contrary, it’s clear that many don’t know what they believe in.

 

For example, I doubt there is a single one among all the big bang supporters on this forum who can present the actual theory of big bang. Been there, done that.

 

Evolutionists are also taken by surprise when asked what is it exactly that they believe in: gradualism or p.e. And many other things.

 

 

 

 

  and why they believe it.    

 

That’s indeed clear.

 

 

 

 

  Second, in a different thread Candice mentioned the "backfire effect".  This is a rather fascinating theory.  In short this is the backfire effect, "in the face of contradictory evidence, beliefs get stronger. Hence, most refutations are useless"  (taken from rationalWiki)  

 

If that would be true, in my opinion the world wouldn’t be full of evolutionists. Instead it would be full of Creationists - and in general exactly the opposite of what’s taught in schools (for example you would have a hard time finding a fan of Einstein).

 

As for “rationalWiki”as a source, well, why don’t you see what “rationalWiki” has to say about Jesus:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jesus

 

 

So next time you rush to see what “rationalWiki” thinks about a topic (or even use their definitions), think about that…

 

 

 

 

  One of my favorite Christian apologist likes to say that his goal is to "put a stone in your shoe", not to convert you.  He wants to give you something to think about, something that you will keep thinking about for weeks and months to come.  

 

Cool.

 

 

 

 

  As I said in a different thread, I am about to turn 50 and I have never met nor spoke to anyone that believed in a geocentric model.   

 

Well, you met me. And in my opinion you quickly dismissed me (not specifically regarding geocentrism, but instead my questioning of the big bang) with words that sounded pretty much like this: "Who on earth do you think you are, to put under question what most people say?"

 

But I believe the problem is not me. It doesn’t matter in my opinion who believes in geocentrism, me or another. It only matters how could you possibly dismiss (not on philosophical grounds, but exclusively scientifically) all the evidence in that regard. That’s indeed the only question I have.

 

 

 

 There are too many locked threads in this forum, that means we are not learning from each other, we are just talking down to each other.   

 

That was not my intent, at any given time. However, that doesn’t mean it isn’t true – I can only apologize yet again.

 

But try to look at it my way (not to excuse me, but to understand me). So here I am, putting under close scrutiny each and every claim mainstream has ever made (especially those currently in classrooms). And I'm finding them to be false. And then trying to say that to the others, and find them disconsidering me.

Edited September 4, 2013 by GoldenEagle
<<< Edits in red. Edited out content in reference to a previously closed thread. >>>

[alphaparticle]

This place can certainly be a challenge, but I've learned to enjoy it and have surprised myself a lot about what I end up agreeing with. Sometimes I merely figure out how to express my previous views better, the reentrenchment effect you mentioned. I also agree it's pointless to engage in threads just to ridicule, and so when I thought I had nothing else to say to the geocentrist stuff I stopped posting.

[JDavis]

Neil,

I cannot help but notice you didn't answer the question....why are you here?

[Diatheosis]

mainly to find fellowship and expand understanding in as many ways as possible. I guess also to back up my hope that people who find one another agreeing on something or many things first, would still be able to maintain deeply respectful appreciation of one another when the issues they disagree surface. Because that will happen at some point, and even if we agree with something, our interpretation probably differs or how important we consider that. Of course, I am in the process myself too. 

 

In my first posts I had to almost fiercely defend myself since I was being viewed as something I was not, although I tried to keep it calm. What really bothers me at times is how Christians especially treat one another or other people in general, taking that our God is forgiving us so much all the time. But we are all still humans, and everyday we have to make the choices which power we allow to control ourselves. Sometimes it's just the bad day that triggers off undesired behavior and thoughts, we all have been through that I suppose.

 

However I hope we can maintain some degree of respect here. If we feel triggered by someone's opinions, better to sit back or walk away for awhile to give it a second thought before replying. You might find yourself expressing your thoughts in a manner which you would prefer people to make their mind about you. This is my two cents anyway.

 

Let us try to behave, okay?

[ollkiller]

I'm here for the same reason many have already said. Different viewpoints lead to interesting dialogue. Everyone agreeing is sooooo boring. After the last 4 weeks though I am now here as well to fight against the idea of the geocentric model. Which is bonkers.

[JDavis]

Neil,

I am not sure what translation you use, but my bible does not read as yours.

But now we see your purpose....to change all of us to think like you.

To that all I can say is good luck and you might want to work on your delivery...it does your purpose more harm than good.

Just your attitude to those of us who disagree is more than enough to keep me from ever taking you or your ideas seriously.

Edited September 7, 2013 by OneLight
removed misquoted scripture

[missmuffet]

I have an issue with some of the debate threads that go on and on and on.It seems like some like to get the last word in and they think their view is the only view.I basically come here for Christian fellowship.

[Diatheosis]

To try to maintain some order is not an easy task, I do not envy those who have taken the responsibility of moderating the forum. Because that's what it is in the end, a responsibility.

 

Whilst I too occasionally come to think if it actually is necessary to lock a thread, which sure happens here one might notice, the pressure is not easy to handle because on the other end of the spectrum of free self expression and freedom of speech is the effect that might have on someone subjected to that. Some people do not change their focus that easily, whilst others can be more easily affected which of course have to do with how much experience one has with different subjects and themes.

 

The geocentric model is one of these subjects that have apparently heated up some atmosphere. It's not my battle, though, I've been more involved in the field of exposing the devil's undertakings which is another issue easily getting locked. I do understand the motif being to have some sort of protection in the focus. But of course as long as the clear major emphasis is on the gospel of Jesus and salvation related material, we are on a safe ground.

 

As said, not an easy task. Where does the line go before the slippery slide towards spirit draining zone begins? That's why I too tend to post something uplifting in the end if what I've said is by its nature related to iniquity and evil. Because the biggest and unquestionable power is in Jesus' name. That's why the majority of us have gathered here, to draw ourselves closer to our Savior. Clearly, I am now speaking on behalf of the believers, or at least any nonbeliever probably will not publicly agree on what I just said

 

So, summa summarum. Please, all of you who have been taking things a bit personally recently here, we all were forgiven by the same cross. Jesus does not want this sort of quarrel between His disciples and children. You are not advancing the cause of the kingdom with that, but actually causing division. What if a brother or sister new in faith is having a troubled time and happens to witness that arguing of yours? That certainly does not testify of Christ-like compassion. I am not perfect either, far from that so it's not that I am looking down at anyone. This is just common sense and the gospel of Jesus in practice.

 

We don't have to agree on everything, because we can't do that. But we should share the Mind of Christ and be of one body of Christ, in Spirit and Truth. Reflect on that, I have no hard feelings nor am I complaining. But we just might get some nice improvement and increase the freedom of thought on this board if everyone stopped arguing about what they do not agree on. We cannot put all the blame on the moderators, but must first take a look in the mirror to spot that timber log.

 

God bless everyone.

Edited September 7, 2013 by Diatheosis