Moroccan Christian Jailed for 'Shaking the Faith of a Muslim'

[OldSchool2]

Read all of my recent posts, particularly ones referencing Jesus and what it means to be in relationship with Him, then tell me if you think that I am a Christian ...

 

Well, there's another question you didn't answer.

[TsukinoRei]

 

 

Read all of my recent posts, particularly ones referencing Jesus and what it means to be in relationship with Him, then tell me if you think that I am a Christian ...

 

Well, there's another question you didn't answer.

 

 

That's the first as far as I am aware.  What other questions do you feel I did not answer?  I am sorry if you feel I've been ignoring you this whole time.  It was not my intention.  =o)

[OldSchool2]

 

 

 

Read all of my recent posts, particularly ones referencing Jesus and what it means to be in relationship with Him, then tell me if you think that I am a Christian ...

 

Well, there's another question you didn't answer.

 

 

That's the first as far as I am aware.  What other questions do you feel I did not answer?  ...

 

For the third time and last time: "On exactly what verses in the New Testament could a so-called Christian gov't base your hypothetical law?"

 

And this has nothing to do with my personal feelings; it's about counting your non-responses.

[TsukinoRei]

 

 

 

Read all of my recent posts, particularly ones referencing Jesus and what it means to be in relationship with Him, then tell me if you think that I am a Christian ...

 

Well, there's another question you didn't answer.

 

 

That's the first as far as I am aware.  What other questions do you feel I did not answer?  ...

 

For the third time and last time: "On exactly what verses in the New Testament could a so-called Christian gov't base your hypothetical law?"

 

And this has nothing to do with my personal feelings; it's about counting your non-responses.

 

 

I am confused.  I did answer that question.  I don't understand why you think that I did not.  Check post #15 again please.  I'm sure you will see that I directly answer your question.  I do not wish to be combative with you.  Please remain calm and non-accusatory.

[OldSchool2]

 

 

 

Read all of my recent posts, particularly ones referencing Jesus and what it means to be in relationship with Him, then tell me if you think that I am a Christian ...

 

Well, there's another question you didn't answer.

 

 

That's the first as far as I am aware.  What other questions do you feel I did not answer?  ...

 

For the third time and last time: "On exactly what verses in the New Testament could a so-called Christian gov't base your hypothetical law?"

 

And this has nothing to do with my personal feelings; it's about counting your non-responses.

 

 

I am confused.  I did answer that question.  I don't understand why you think that I did not.  Check post #15 again please.  I'm sure you will see that I directly answer your question ....

 

 

You didn't even indirectly answer my question simply because it would be impossible for you or anyone else to find a verse or verses in the New Testament that could ever sanction religious bias by Christians.

 

But as you now claim that you did, feel free to restate it and what verse(s) you found so that everyone on line can see it!

[TsukinoRei]

You didn't even indirectly answer my question simply because it would be impossible for you or anyone else to find a verse or verses in the New Testament that could ever sanction religious bias by Christians.

 

But as you now claim that you did, feel free to restate it and what verse(s) you found so that everyone on line can see it!

 

 

Post 15, page 1.  I'm sorry if you didn't like my answer, but I don't see how I can have a productive discussion with you if you continue to assert that the answer doesn't exist.  Once again, it is not my intention to be combative with you. Please refrain from being accusatory towards me.  I am beginning to feel as though you are insulting my integrity.  You have already questioned my love for and relationship with Jesus Christ.  I hope that it is not your intention to turn the topic personal.

[OldSchool2]

 

You didn't even indirectly answer my question simply because it would be impossible for you or anyone else to find a verse or verses in the New Testament that could ever sanction religious bias by Christians.

 

But as you now claim that you did, feel free to restate it and what verse(s) you found so that everyone on line can see it!

 

 

Post 15, page 1.  I'm sorry if you didn't like my answer, but I don't see how I can have a productive discussion with you if you continue to assert that the answer doesn't exist.  Once again, it is not my intention to be combative with you ...

 

... more like "passive aggressive".

 

And it's not a question of likes or dislikes, but of your evasive non-answers that avoid all rational discussion: the fact remains that you still have not provided a verse or verses from the New Testament that could ever support your hypothetical claim of religious bias by Christians/Christian govt's.

 

But as you continue to claim that you can and did, feel free to restate what NT verse(s) you found so that everyone -- including myself -- can see it because I can't find it anywhere on Post 15, Page 1.

[TsukinoRei]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do you think that prison time for spreading any ideology is persecution, or does prison time for spreading Christianity only count as persecution?

 

Are you asking this because you are against calling what these Christians are going through "persecution"? Or are you asking because you think Christians are being selfish for only thinking of their brothers and sisters in this? Or are you asking because you think we Christians are guilty of persecuting others and want to make a point of that? Or . . . what?

 

 

I'm asking because lamenting over the persecution of ourselves is only reasonable if we would also lament over the persecution of others who are not Christians around the world.  Anything less is indeed selfish and a hypocrisy.  Do we love our neighbours as ourselves?  Do we love our enemies?  If Christianity were to become the dominant religion in any of these countries that currently persecute Christians - and then the new Christian dominated government passed a law that sent Muslims to prison for spreading their faith ...

 

On exactly what verses in the New Testament could a so-called Christian gov't base your hypothetical law?

 

Islamic states easilly legislate the persecution of non-Muslims because they base their authority for this and other forms of persecution from the verses of their own Quran as well as the hadith.

 

Not long ago a sheik in Saudi officially approved of the destruction of Christian churches in Arabia based solely on the authority of a hadtih of Muhammad who said there "shall not be two religions on the peninsula of the Arabs".

 

 

You shall not suffer a witch to live... as well as numerous other Old Testament laws which have been abused to recent history and in some cases present day  ...

 

... are not a part of the New Testament.

 

As I already posted, "On exactly what verses in the New Testament could a so-called Christian gov't base your hypothetical law?"

 

BTW, the only time that mosques are destroyed today is when Sunni and Shia Muslims bomb each others' funerals.

 

 

It is my belief that if these people actually read their New Testament, the whole thing, and understood it, they wouldn't be left with a violent leg to stand on.  And yet, there remains people, not only today but throughout history that have read the whole Bible, believe they have understood it, and are still violent.  I think that these people just aren't getting it.  It remains that they identify themselves as Christian.  The civil war between Muslims and Christians in Africa has been ongoing.  If you google Christian terrorists and Christian Militia, or Christian Armies, you will find most of them today are in Africa - kidnapping and training up child soldiers in the name of Christ no less. 

 

I am sure that you must know that there are many people who identify themselves as Christian who focus more on the Old Testament than on the New Testament - and as justification for this they point to New Testament verses which state that Jesus came to fulfill these laws, not erase them.  To do this they conveniently ignore all the other verses about the law that point to a new and better covenant that supersedes the old, or the verses pointing out the impossibility of being saved by the old law or the fact that it is written that many of the old laws were impossible to live under and the impossibility of them proved further the need for Christ.  Even Christians in America do this.

 

I can only give you a dim understanding of what drives people who identify themselves as Christian to be violent.  But these are not the extreme circumstances I'm asking you to comment on.  I am confident that you and anyone else here would be quick to distance yourselves from supporting such acts of violence.  At least I hope you would.

 

I have heard a number of Christians in North America calling for the removal of Mosques from American soil.  Would you rebuke them?  I have also heard a number of Christians in North America declaring that the laws in Russia which were passed to imprison homosexuals for 'propoganda', are a very good thing which ought to be mirrored in North America - and that Russia is truly a more Christian nation than either Canada or the United States for doing this.  Would you agree with them?  If not, then why complain when Christians are imprisoned for 'propoganda', or Churches are removed in other nations?

 

Thank you for asking for clarification.  I feel like I've answered your questions to the best of my ability.  Will you answer mine as well?    

 

 

As I have said, a misinterpretation and misuse of the New Testament used to justify excessive focus on the Old Testament leads to a doctrine of violence or to a doctrine of oppression by individuals and groups who self-identify as Christian.  I should probably also clarify that I am not saying that ALL individuals or even MOST individuals who self-identify as Christian operate in this manner.  Nor do I claim that all those who self-identify as Christian are born again.  I do not see any value in digging up chapters and verses for you, as we will already both agree that only a misinterpretation of them would lead to violence or oppression. But surely you know to which I am referring already, we've discussed them enough in other threads.  I had thought that referring to it as I had would be enough for you to immediately recognise the verses.  I wasn't trying to be mysterious.  But here you go anyway; Chapter and verse; Matthew 5:17.  I could tear out and mutilate a bunch of other scriptures to demonstrate how other people justify elevating the worst of Old Testament laws and violence to justify their actions against others - but I would rather not.  

 

 Do you both still accuse me of not answering your questions?  And Nebula, do you still accuse me of passive aggression?

 

It's interesting that while you both accuse me of not answering any questions I was the first person in this thread to ask a question and nobody has answered it yet.  

 

Do you think that prison time for spreading any ideology is persecution, or does prison time for spreading Christianity only count as persecution?

 

 

It's quite a straight forward question.  If there is anything subtle or passive aggressive in it then it was not my intention.  I think it was quite direct.  Does anybody want to answer it?  Is it so frightening to examine how we define persecution?

[nebula]

And Nebula, do you still accuse me of passive aggression?

It's interesting that while you both accuse me of not answering any questions I was the first person in this thread to ask a question and nobody has answered it yet.

Dear TR, would you please explain to me where and how I accused you of being passive aggressive?

And where did I accuse you of not answering any questions?

 

 

In Russia a teenage boy held up a sign saying that murdering homosexuals is a crime.  He was beaten by his parents and turned over to the police.  That is a Christian state.

  When did Russia become a "Christian" state?

 

 

 

 

I have heard a number of Christians in North America calling for the removal of Mosques from American soil.  Would you rebuke them?

 

The issues of Mosques is a bit tricky. for Islam is not just a religion, but also a political power. Mosques are not considered by Muslims as just a building to gather in for worship, but they are considered as claiming ground for their "Allah".

 

It's a very sticky situation.

 

 

 

 

I'm asking because lamenting over the persecution of ourselves is only reasonable if we would also lament over the persecution of others who are not Christians around the world.  Anything less is indeed selfish and a hypocrisy.

 

That's an interesting perspective.

 

But when you read Revelation, do you see the focus on Christian persecution as being hypocritical as well?

 

 

 

[TsukinoRei]

 

And Nebula, do you still accuse me of passive aggression?

It's interesting that while you both accuse me of not answering any questions I was the first person in this thread to ask a question and nobody has answered it yet.

Dear TR, would you please explain to me where and how I accused you of being passive aggressive?

And where did I accuse you of not answering any questions?

 

 

In Russia a teenage boy held up a sign saying that murdering homosexuals is a crime.  He was beaten by his parents and turned over to the police.  That is a Christian state.

  When did Russia become a "Christian" state?

 

 

 

 

I have heard a number of Christians in North America calling for the removal of Mosques from American soil.  Would you rebuke them?

 

The issues of Mosques is a bit tricky. for Islam is not just a religion, but also a political power. Mosques are not considered by Muslims as just a building to gather in for worship, but they are considered as claiming ground for their "Allah".

 

It's a very sticky situation.

 

 

 

 

I'm asking because lamenting over the persecution of ourselves is only reasonable if we would also lament over the persecution of others who are not Christians around the world.  Anything less is indeed selfish and a hypocrisy.

 

That's an interesting perspective.

 

But when you read Revelation, do you see the focus on Christian persecution as being hypocritical as well?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm so sorry Neb!  I misread Oldschools name as yours!  It must have been late.  Even so that's no excuse for falsely accusing you.  Please accept my apologies.

 

Some Islamic people view a mosque as a seat of political power, but by far not all Islamic people do.  There are many moderate followers of Islam.  The women wear bright colours and uncovered heads. A great many religions have historically been in the position of being viewed as a political power and not just a religion.  Vatican City is an example of a Christian seat of political power.  That power used to be much more far reaching than it is now.  The Monarchy of England is another example.  While the monarchy has steadily  been reducing their political power, the Queen is the head of the Church and remains the official head of much of the Commonwealth.  The Commonwealth does still exist as an active international political entity.  

 

Just as there are Christians who do not view political Christianity is true Christianity, there are Muslim who do not view political Islam as true Islam.  Rather, the only thing either part views as a true representation of their faith is a passionate desire to know God and submit to God in daily life.  In the view of both parties, God is a God of peace - and so they believe that there is no room for violence or oppression in submission to God.  Both religions have had large groups of people who misrepresent their faith by focussing on, and acting on, the violent passages of their scriptures.  Both religions have large groups of people who believe that such acts can only come from a gross misunderstanding of what it is to know and love God.

 

The Russian Orthodox Church is extremely powerful and influential over the Russian State.  The country is 70% Orthodox Christian.  Putin is very supportive of the Orthodox Church and wishes to bring the nations laws in line with Orthodox guidelines.  The separation of Church and State does not exist in Russia.  This is why I define it as a Christian State.  

 

When I read Revelation I see a strong possibility that it is people who profess to be Christian who persecute the believers.  But it's a big book of symbolism so I'm not going to form doctrinal positions based on my interpretation of it.