Steff Posted November 29, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 86 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 624 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/20/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 29, 2004 We have been listening, we are simply ham-strung as to what the world may feel is acceptable as to how to deal with it. So instead of getting Osama we invade Iraq? That makes sense because? I think it would have been far more acceptable to put a price on Osama's head than to invade another country that had nothing to do with 9/11. We're not talking KKK here, we're talking muslim terrorism. A huge difference. Where's the difference? Evil people using religion as an excuse to commit murder. Doesn't get any more similar than that. Ah, the ol' if it doesn't line up with what you may have read about, then it automatically becomes a "straw-man". I guess I failed again. No Ted, you were building a bunch of arguments, things I never said into something you could knock down. That is a straw man argument. We may have our differences but we are on the same team . Tell you what, in 10 years if there is still terrorism and things are much worse (which I'm betting they will be) we'll know that my method would have likely worked better. I'm not saying lay down for these evil people, but we certainly need a change in tactic. In Vietnam, we won every major conflict, yet we lost the war. Ask yourself why. I believe the same thing applies here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 We have been listening, we are simply ham-strung as to what the world may feel is acceptable as to how to deal with it. So instead of getting Osama we invade Iraq? That makes sense because? I think it would have been far more acceptable to put a price on Osama's head than to invade another country that had nothing to do with 9/11. We're not talking KKK here, we're talking muslim terrorism. A huge difference. Where's the difference? Evil people using religion as an excuse to commit murder. Doesn't get any more similar than that. Ah, the ol' if it doesn't line up with what you may have read about, then it automatically becomes a "straw-man". I guess I failed again. No Ted, you were building a bunch of arguments, things I never said into something you could knock down. That is a straw man argument. We may have our differences but we are on the same team . Tell you what, in 10 years if there is still terrorism and things are much worse (which I'm betting they will be) we'll know that my method would have likely worked better. I'm not saying lay down for these evil people, but we certainly need a change in tactic. In Vietnam, we won every major conflict, yet we lost the war. Ask yourself why. I believe the same thing applies here. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Steff, Israel is proving that the military approach works. Arafat and his cronies thought they had a tactic that Israel could not defend themselves against: The suicide bomber. The modern Islamic terrorist in using this tactic is counting on the humanity of the government/nation being attacked. They counted on Israel's desire to avoid Palestinian civilian casualties, that they used everything in the book to make themselves indistinguishable from the civilians. They placed their bomb making factories in the midst of civilian neighborhoods, they dug tunnels in which to smuggle weapons in the midst of olive tree groves used by civilians to make a living, they even used regular houses as weapons armories. They did this to hide their operations and also make sure that any Israeli response to terrorism would be sure to affect the civilian population, hopeful result in as many civilian deaths as possible. The terrorists knew that the world would value the life of the Palestinian civilians MORE than the lives of the Jewish civilians being blown up by the terrorists. They counted on the idea that Israel would kowtow to world opinion and would be unable to respond to the suicide attacks for fear of international rebuke. What they discovered instead was that Israel didn't give a "you know what." The Palestinians called it a war, so Israel gave them a war. What surprised the Palestinians was that the bullets could fly both ways. They did not count on just how sofisticated Israel's military intelligence is, and they did not count on just how determined Israel has been to stomp out terrorism. Israel took every measure that can be taken to reduce the number of civilian casualties, but civilians died nonetheless. Israel is not responsible for that. It is the terrorists who put them in danger and bear the full responsibility for the lives of women and children that died needlessly. Israel has proven that the military approach works. It takes a while, but it works. Israel has proven that the way to defeat terrorism is to make the price for terrorism, higher than the terrorists want to pay. Sometimes you have to get pretty mean and ugly to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted November 29, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 86 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 624 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/20/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 29, 2004 The difference is though Shiloh, that Israel is fighting terrorists on lands they have occupied in the past. They aren't actually fighting a war per say either, they may call it that but it's more of a police action. This is not the same thing as invading a country that had nothing to do with your security. The Palestinien terrorists DO affect Israels security so I agree they have to deal with them. It's just not a good comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted November 29, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted November 29, 2004 In Vietnam, we won every major conflict, yet we lost the war. Ask yourself why. I believe the same thing applies here. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What I have heard is that after the US troops won ground, the politicians gave it back. The difference is though Shiloh, that Israel is fighting terrorists on lands they have occupied in the past. They aren't actually fighting a war per say either, they may call it that but it's more of a police action. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Israel won those lands in battle after the Arabs attacked them. Should the Israeli politicians do as the American politicians did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 The difference is though Shiloh, that Israel is fighting terrorists on lands they have occupied in the past. They aren't actually fighting a war per say either, they may call it that but it's more of a police action. This is not the same thing as invading a country that had nothing to do with your security. The Palestinien terrorists DO affect Israels security so I agree they have to deal with them. It's just not a good comparison. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You miss the point Steff. Israel has shown that overwhelming military muscle is effective at reducing terrorism. It may not the exact same scenario as Iraq, but the terrorists are terrorists. They are using the same tactics on our soldiers as they did on the Israelis, and the Israelis have proven that when you strike back and strike hard, you will gain more ground than sitting around like bunch of sissies and afraid to do anything because of what France might think. Israel had to thumb their nose at world opinion which I might add said the same things about Israel's war on terror as you say about ours. The world has been just opposed to American self defense against terror, as they have been about Israel's. That says alot to me. The Israelis are living proof that you are wrong about using the military to fight terrorism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oliveoil Posted November 29, 2004 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 60 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/21/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted November 29, 2004 Pardon me while I vent a while. I was having a fairly good day until I came on this post. Thats all it took to jerk me back to real life. So the drama goes on the curtain goes up on another sad post on how we americans are sooooo evil. Thats why the world hates us. Its like listening to a old country tune, play over and over. While the poor drunk at the bar gets drunker. (All it takes is for good men to do nothing). Thats the correct quote. Lets see what we have to do to win this war. First we have to convert to Islam. Then we have to choose us a dictator. We have to blast prayers to Allah over every loud speaker in the world. When man is stripped of every God given right, when good is evil and darkness is light. When truth is hid from man and wisdom is a thing of evil. When God withdraws his spirit from this earth and lets the darkness rule. When this earth is drenched in the blood of all those who would rather die than surrender their freedom. When its to late for the good men to do something. Then the rest of the world will like us for we all will be in the same boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted November 30, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 276 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 7,474 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/31/1966 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Olive, you forgot the public apology that we would have to give to the world for being so insensitive. t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted November 30, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 86 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 624 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/20/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 30, 2004 You miss the point Steff. Israel has shown that overwhelming military muscle is effective at reducing terrorism. It may not the exact same scenario as Iraq, but the terrorists are terrorists. They are using the same tactics on our soldiers as they did on the Israelis, and the Israelis have proven that when you strike back and strike hard, you will gain more ground than sitting around like bunch of sissies and afraid to do anything because of what France might think. It's not even close to the same thing Shiloh and you know it. Iraq had nothing to do with our security, nothing to do with terrorism against the US. We have become what our founding fathers hated most, an occupying overbearing force on a people that don't want us there. Israel had to thumb their nose at world opinion which I might add said the same things about Israel's war on terror as you say about ours. The world has been just opposed to American self defense against terror, as they have been about Israel's. That says alot to me. That's rich "Self Defense"? Attacking Iraq, a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 or any other terrorist attack on the US? Sorry but that just doesn't fly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted November 30, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 276 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 7,474 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/31/1966 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Could it be, steff, that we don't have all of the facts when it comes to Iraq? After all this is a war on terrorism, not just the ones that hit on 9/11. So stated by Bush at the beginning of this. Maybe you just don't see the big picture of what the war is encompassing. Either that or you just happen to disagree with the intentions of the war. I believe Bush stated at the beginning that it was a war that will target terrorists where ever possible and not limited to simply those responsible for the 9/11 attacks. Can we ever get them all? No, that would be impossible. Can we do something about the ones we know are responsible for terrorism around the world and deny them the free ride they have enjoyed thus far? Well, that's what all of this is about. That's where our resolve comes in. You may not feel like we have anything to worry about because most of the attacks are happening far away from your front door, but how long will it be before it is happening here? Unless you have the chance to sit in the intelligence meetings, there's got to be something that you don't know about. Me too, come to think of it. But I reckon' that's just a straw-man. Have a good day. t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted November 30, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 86 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 624 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/20/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 30, 2004 Ted, the appropriate word for catching terrorists should be a criminal man-hunt, not a war. War is waged against countries not criminals. People need to realize that every time we invade another country without provocation or cause when make 10 times as many enemies as we do hunting people down indivdually for crimes. How long do you think Osama would last with a 200 Million price tag on his head that anyone could collect? I bet less than a week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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