Mid-tribulation rapture: why i believe so.

[Donibm]

@Donibm

 

 

You're confusing God's punishment with acts of Satan.

Do you know that hundreds of thousands of Christians are being persecuted in Africa and the Middle East as we speak? They are already going through their own personal tribulation. How does this fit in with your theory of the righteous not being punished?

You accuse others of failing to understand scripture, but you do not realise that God punishes no one during the great Tribulation, only afterwards. People suffer during the Great Trib because they are being ruled by the Beast. They are not being punished by God!

You say that all disbelief comes from Satan, therefore you are accusing post-tribbers of having unbelief. Is that what you think, that post-tribbers lack belief? You are quick to judge others.

And for the record, I am neither pre-Trib nor post-Trib. I have yet to decide.

I have heard post-Tribbers say some shocking things about pre-Tribbers, even going so far as to call them influenced by demons, but I have always defended the pre-Tribber.

Now you appear to be attacking post-Tribbers in the same way. You accuse post-Tribbers of not understanding the character of God. Is this not an arrogant statement on your part?

 

 

 

 

 

[[You're confusing God's punishment with acts of Satan.]]

 

I was wondering if that is what you thought about me … actually.  LoL  But I’m not.  I’m not talking about the allowances God gives to Satan, such as what happened to Job.  I’m talking about what God HIMSELF does:

 

God Himself sent the flood ... and what about Noah?

God Himself sent the plaques in Egypt ... and what about the Israelites?

God Himself destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah ... and what about Lot?

 

When God Himself sends punishment upon the wicked, He does not punish His own children in the process.

 

Is that, or is that NOT the character of God?  Its a simply question. Please answer yes or no.

 

Have I not provided examples?  Where are your examples showing that when He sends punishment to the wicked that He also punishes His own people as well.  Like, "Opps!  My bad son!  I didn't mean for that 100 hail to fall on your wife."

 

Come on Oakwood.  Have you THOUGHT about what you are arguing against?  Have you even bothered to LOOK at the things I presented?

 

Oh, but you ignored what I presented about a father who would throw a grenade into a room with his baby boy ... just to kill a wolf ... just as you ignored a great many things I presented.

 

God Himself will poor out His wrath in the Book of Revelation.  We can see that He is doing it.  In fact, if you pay close attention when reading it, you will see that God is destroying 1/3 initially.  Why 1/3?  Like, why is that even mentioned?  Seems to me that since the Church and Spirit are Raptured, this world will be Satans.  And its’ as if God is saying “since you robbed My kingdom of 1/3 of My holy angels, and their functions, I will rob YOU of YOUR world by 1/3!”

 

OUCH!!

BAM!!

 

That is what I see.  You’ll have to read it and decide for yourself … just like everything else I presented.  Just agreeing or disagreeing lacks importance if you aren’t even looking up what I’m typing.  Later on in Revelation, after God destroys 1/3, He starts hitting ALL of it.  So, He insults first, then annihilates after.

 

So, again, I’m not talking about what God “allows,” I’m talking about what He Himself sends … and we are talking about the Tribulation period ... are we not?  Pre-TRIB. Mid-TRIB.  Post-TRIB  Course we are.  We aren't talking about elements of "persecution". 

 

 

[[Do you know that hundreds of thousands of Christians are being persecuted in Africa and the Middle East as we speak?]]

 

Very aware … and I’ve given from my own money (I wasn’t even working) to help back in 2001.  So yes, I know.  But again, I’m talking about what God sends, not what He allows.

 

 

[[ They are already going through their own personal tribulation. How does this fit in with your theory of the righteous not being punished?]]

 

Since when has persecution equaled punishment?  We are persecuted for doing the will of God … and you attribute that to punishment?  Why in the world would God PUNISH His people for obeying Him?  Did you think about that first … because it is inaccurate.  They are not going through Tribulation … no more than a hateful atheist is THEE Antichrist.

 

Further, what is my “theory”?  Last I could see, I’ve quoted Scriptures … which you call a “theory.”  You haven’t actually addressed anything I posted though.  You’ve grabbed what you think you can handle, added your own perception, and you’ve focused on that ever since.  Is there a reason you aren’t actually addressing what I actually presented?  

 

Persecution is one of the signs … right?  Jesus made it clear that the Church would endure persecution … right?  Course He did.  But what does persecution have to do with TRIBULATION, which is a specific period of persecution in which there is no mention of the Church?  Tribulation is not a sign, its an event!

 

 

[[You accuse others of failing to understand scripture, but you do not realise that God punishes no one during the great Tribulation, only afterwards.]]

 

Where?  Where did I accuse “others of failing to understand the scripture”? 

 

God punished no one?  Then what do you make of:

 

Revelations 6 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the WRATH of the Lamb: For the great day of HIS WRATH is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

Revelation 7 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the SEAL OF THE LIVING GOD: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

 

Revelation 8 – ALL of it sent from Heaven

 

Revelation 9 – ALL of it ordained by God for that specific time in human history, including the bound angels who are reserved for the deaths of 1/3 of humanity left on earth.

 

Observe even the last 2 verses.  No man repents.  They can’t.  Why not?  Because the Spirit is not here to lead mankind to repentance.  Only the Spirit can lead and call men to repentance.  You know this … right?

 

And this is the 1/3 I was telling you about.  Keep reading and you will see Gods TOTAL DESTRUCTION of what is left.

 

 

[[ People suffer during the Great Trib because they are being ruled by the Beast. They are not being punished by God!]]

 

Whopped from both ends of different sticks.  Read Revelation again.

 

 

[[You say that all disbelief comes from Satan, therefore you are accusing post-tribbers of having unbelief.]]

 

May I suggest that, going forward, you start actually QUOTING me instead of inserting your opinions and interpretations of what I type?  No scholar or academic likes to be misquoted, and you are doing it repeatedly, even for the second time straight. 

 

 

[[ Is that what you think, that post-tribbers lack belief?]]

 

They are Christians aren’t they? How can they lack BELIEF … if they are Christains?  I already made it painfully clear, but you seem insistent to keep adding your perception to what you think I’m saying, regardless of me already refuting you for it.

 

 

[[ You are quick to judge others.]]

 

… here we go again.  Another one who “knows me better than me.”  Find my judgment, THEN make the accusation.  

 

 

[[And for the record, I am neither pre-Trib nor post-Trib. I have yet to decide.]]

 

... and I may be "new" to this thread, but I am not some milk drinking new convert, or new to online OR verbal debates.  I know how to keep focus, and I know how to keep opponents focused.  I'm allowing you to be unfocused and all over the place because my response was to a particular individual, not to seek contention or offend post-trib brethren.  So far, the people I posted to haven't even had a chance to respond.  So ... where'd YOU come from?

 

These are my perceptions.  They are not new.  I am not new either.  I believe a great many things are overlooked and ignored from post-trib.  If you want to discuss post vs pre trib, you should create a thread topic on it.

 

 

[[Now you appear to be attacking post-Tribbers in the same way. You accuse post-Tribbers of not understanding the character of God. Is this not an arrogant statement on your part?]]

 

Things aren’t always what they APPEAR to be.

 

-I do believe that the post-trib “doctrine” has demonic lies all over it

-I do believe there is a lack in knowing the character of God

-I believe they do not know His promises (kinda like skipping over everything Biblical that I presented and focusing on a piece that you think you can back me into a corner with)

-I believe that a great many classification of Christians have not learned from the errs and mistakes of Israel, and they don’t see that Israel did NOT enter because of her UNBELIEF.

-I believe that Christians also, especially those who are untrained by devout parents, or good Sunday worship, are arrogant in thinking that they are the ones who have all the answers … instead of listening to those who are (complete opposite of the days of old).  Is this not prophecy?

 

 

… it is arrogant to think that saints of old AND modern saints have never been free of error. 

 

Galatians 3:16 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth[?]

 

It’s arrogant when a young person thinks they don't need the council of an elder.  It’s arrogant when a new convert thinks he knows as much as a scholar.  No friend, I know “arrogance” well.  What I’ve presented is neither arrogance nor judgmental, and I have NEVER said such brethren were doomed for Hellfire.  Not even once.  I first started studying Revelation in 1991, long before DVD existed.  Even had the VHS set from Jack Van Imp - you should know something about that.  

 

I'd prefer if you actually addressed the core of what I actually presented.

[OakWood]

I read what you said. Perhaps you should take your own advice.

You say that you believe that the post-Trib doctrine has demonic lies all over it, so what are you implying?

 

Quote:

"Since when has persecution equaled punishment?  We are persecuted for doing the will of God … and you attribute that to punishment?  Why in the world would God PUNISH His people for obeying Him?"

 

No, I did not attribute that to punishment. Quite the opposite. You did not read what I said. Why do you twist my words?

I actually said that it is NOT God who is doing the punishment. My first sentence made that clear. You were the one implying that a pre-Trib rapture was the only one possible because God does not punish the righteous. I was merely telling you that the Trib is NOT a punishment from God. You are now implying that I said that it was.

 

I addressed your points and now you have reiterated the same as you said before (more or less) and also twisted what I have said.

 

But thank you for reminding me that it is arrogant for a young person to reject the advice of an elder or for a new convert to think he knows as much as a scholar. There was me thinking that I knew everything, even though I have already told you that I am undecided on pre-Trib or post-Trib.

I will now accept everything that you say, seeing as you believe that you have all the answers.

[Guest P_W]

Greetings, Brothers and Sisters in Christ!  Peace to you, all!  And LOVE to you in the precious Name of Jesus and by His precious, healing, redeeming, Blood, amen.

 

I have an opinion on these things that have been discussed here, but I dare not give that view because of the way the talk goes.  It does not seem to me that this topic can be handled in a civil and loving way.  I would be quite sorry if I offended my brother or sister and caused them pain.  I think Jesus would rather me be silent on the subject than to disrespect another.  I think He is hurt when we are sarcastic and snide.

 

And, I think unbelievers, or those just not quite sure yet, are easily influenced by what they see and what they hear us say.  That goes along with the fact that someone who has not made up their mind, and/or those who are still searching for truth, they are watching us and wondering.  

 

WWJD?  What would Jesus do???

 

The prostitutes and the thieves, those who lacked moral character and judgment, they are the ones who ran to Jesus.  We flock to that place of love, not of judgment, and Jesus met them with open arms.  We are called to be loving and non-judgmental.  We are told in the Holy Scriptures to, "Count others more worthy...."  We are to put others first.  Above all things .... put on love.

 

Christians witness to the lost world and talk about love and forgiveness and when the world watches us bicker, they are repulsed by the behavior they see.  That is what is important, not the day Jesus is coming, remember, no one knows.  

 

As a Christian, I have been "preparing" for that Great and Powerful Day of The Lord every day!  It has been a part of my teaching since childhood.  As a Christian I know that my God is able.  My God can carry me when I cannot "endure" any longer.  It is in my weakness that God is strong!  Amen  And it is all about LOVE and how we love one another.

 

Rolling, are you prepared to literally "flee to the mountains?"  What about those of us who cannot?    What about God's blessed and beloved little children who have no food now?  They will starve, they cannot "endure".  But, God loves them, and God knows!  So, He might also allow His beloved to be "left behind" in their wheelchairs or hospital beds because they could not "endure"?

 

I have always wondered about this myself, but now in life, I understand that it is God alone and His love that have brought me this far.  Even having victory over a hospital bed can be called, "enduring".  As for me, God is the one who "endured".  He is faithful.  Amen

 

Instead of worrying about our own survival, are we not to first see to the survival of the "least of these"?  Jesus said that it was like feeding Him, or clothing Him.  "For whatever you do unto the least of these, that you do unto Me ..."

 

Then He said God feeds the sparrows and we are far more valuable to Him than birds.  This describes the character of God and what is meant by His character of love.  God is love.  His love for us is what keeps us each day.

 

What if Jesus comes back tomorrow?  What then?  Who is prepared?  Let me tell you, it is the one who shows love.  Jesus said we should be prepared to "give it all away", His words....  "Sell all that you have and give it to the poor..."  And we are to trust, even when we are told to do that which makes no sense to our fallen flesh.

 

We are to walk in  God's Spirit and worship Him in spirit and truth.  We are to love one another like Jesus loves us and we cannot please God any other way.  We are to live by faith.  Faith to know and be content with the fact that we do not know "the hour".  We are content whether it is before, or after tribulation when we arrive in Glory.  Either way, I've waited so long and I KNOW it can't possible be too much longer!  Amen

 

I am ready today.  I am as ready as anyone can be.  I have nothing weighing me down, not the worry of when He is coming, not the worry of where I am going.  I know my Redeemer lives and one day He is coming for me!  Praise God!  Glory to His Name!

 

To tell you the truth, I'd like to be like Enoch and walk with God.  How marvelous to walk away with God into Eternity!

 

What the Holy Spirit is telling me right now is that I need to "Sound the Alarm!"  Whenever the actual "catching away" described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is to take place, it is now.  It is the time to prepare, to engage, to stay awake!  Jesus told us to be watching and that is not what I am seeing in the churches today and in God's people.

 

"Said the watchman to the people ... 'Everybody say awake!  The enemy is closer than you know!"

 

I think I caught a hint of his scent in those trying to discredit Scripture and  through the spirit of discord and strife that is presenting itself in many of the threads here at Worthy.  I think we all need to practice a little restraint.  If we claim to be saved, we should work a little harder at respecting each other and giving the other the benefit of the doubt, always.  We should resist the temptation to belittle and stay strong!  Speaking to one another in love, therefore driving out that spirit of strife. amen!

 

This is a very interesting subject to me and I do have strong opinions on the topic, but the first time I wanted to ask what it was that convinced those who believed differently than I do and have a civil, respectful, discussion, the battle began.  I saw right away the chance to have a good dialogue and reasoning session would not happen, so I decided to not argue.

I also learned a very valuable lesson in what God wants of us and two virtues are humility and love.  Our beloved Messiah showed us that we are to wash one another's feet.  He came to serve and said so should we ....   we just don't want to.

 

IMHO Respectfully told in truth,

God's Spirit and Peace be with us all,

PrairWarur

[EnochBethany]

I THES 4-5:

 

 

 

13   But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope.  14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep  in Jesus will God bring with him.  15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto THE COMING OF THE LORD,

shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.  16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with

 

A SHOUT

with

 

THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL,

and with

 

THE TRUMP OF GOD;

and

 

THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST

 

[RAPTURE:]

 

17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be RAPTURED in the clouds,

 

TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR;

and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 

[THE CHURCH IS OUT'A HERE]

 

18 Wherefore  comfort one another with these words.

5:1   But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that aught be written unto you. 

2 For yourselves know perfectly that

 

[THE TRIBULATION]

 

THE DAY OF THE LORD so comes as a thief in the night. 

3 When they are saying, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as

 

TRAVAIL upon a woman with child; and they shall in no wise escape. 

4 But YE, brethren, [CHURCH] are

NOT in darkness, that THAT DAY SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU

as a thief: 

5 for ye are all sons of light, and sons of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness;  6 so then let us not sleep, as do the rest, but let us watch and be sober.  7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that are drunken are drunken in the night.  8 But let us, since we are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation. 

 

9 For God appointed us NOT UNTO WRATH

, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,  10 who died for us, that, whether we  wake or sleep, we should live together with him.  11 Wherefore  exhort one another, and build each other up, even as also ye do.

[rollinTHUNDER]

Rolling, are you prepared to literally "flee to the mountains?"  What about those of us who cannot?    What about God's blessed and beloved little children who have no food now?  They will starve, they cannot "endure".  But, God loves them, and God knows!  So, He might also allow His beloved to be "left behind" in their wheelchairs or hospital beds because they could not "endure"?

Hi PrairWarur,

No, the warning to flee to the mountains is given only for those living in Judea, near Jerusalem, after they see the abomination of desolation. This will ignite the great tribulation in the Middle East. There are some Christians there, but most are living in other nations, so most are already out of harms way.

Some say that God can not deal with Israel until He deals with the Church first. This is another pre-trib argument. But that's funny, I've never read that in God's Word. Yeah, like God's hands are tied, because a few people believe such and such. But God punished Israel in the 1st century, while the Church was already growing by leaps and bounds, and Paul had already been preaching to the gentiles for several years. So what makes these people believe that He can not do it again?

Cheers

[Guest P_W]

Amen, Enoch!  To God be the glory forever, amen.

[Donibm]

1)

I like what you are saying, but ... WWJD?  Well, to me, that is easy.  He would tell the TRUTH ... and those who distorted it, He would refute, harshly, just as He did with Pharisees and anyone else that deliberately (or not even) distorted the Word of God.  And if they, and those who listened to them persisted against the Truth, He would tell them that their damnation is sure, and the that blind lead the blind and BOTH will fall into the ditch, and ultimately be destroyed.  I believe that He would give examples of Israels unbelief, showing how THEY missed out and how THEY missed the blessings, because of unbelief.

 

 

2)

HERE IS WISDOM (and I share it only because the Spirit whispered it to me just now):

 

Why did the men of Noahs lifetime die?

 

a) because of sin?

or

b) because of unbelief?

 

Unbelief, of course.  Sin was the catalyst, indeed.  But they were given WARNING of impending danger.  They could have ESCAPED, regardless of their sin, ... if only they BELIEVED.

 

 

3)

God has shut the door in many people faces because they refused to believe ... and even moreso when they were warned to NOT disbelieve!  His Judgments are even worst when He sends messengers to tell them to believe ... and they refuse to.  Even the righteous perish for their unbelief.  Is this not the Word of God? 

 

And what is "unbelief" ... if not the "hardness of the heart"?

 

 

4)

I see unbelief all over the post-trib opinion.  I really do.

 

Where is their blessed hope?

Where is the Spirit or the Church post Rapture, evidently seen prior to Tribulation, and then not seen during the Tribulation, according to Revelation?

Why does Revelation show three times that men will not repent (only the Spirit can call to repentance)?

Why is He "taken out of the way", hence, abandoning the Church, when He was sent FOR the Church?  Does that even sound sensible?

Why do they refuse to see the uncountable number in Heaven while Tribulation goes on in the earth?  How'd they get there?

Why do they refuse to see that the Dispensation of Grace (Gospel message) if no longer in existence in Revelation?

Why do they refuse to acknowledge that the Israelites were safe on one side of Egypt, but now we are all intermingled, so God must remove His people from harms way?

Why do they profane the Character of God in their unbelief?

Why do they not see the difference of being "caught up" to be with Him, versus "returning" with the saints (one goes up, the other comes down)?

Why do they not see the difference between a "twinkling of an eye" ... and slow enough for "every eye shall behold Him"?

How have they missed that the antichrist will "cause them to believe the lie"?

 

If they do not know the character or Word of God ... at least TRUST ABRAHAM ... whom ye call your "spiritual father"

 

Abraham said 'FAR BE IT FROM YOU TO DESTROY THE RIGHTEOUS WITH THE WICKED!  FAR BE IT FROM YOU!"

 

And what was Gods response? 

 

For THEIR sake, I will not destroy the city.

 

 

5)

What some people don't know, for whatever reason;-  Unchurched.  Untaught.  Undisciplined.  Carnal.  Just regurgitating what someone told them, rather than reading the Word for themselves. - is that there is a distinctive difference between ALLOWING bad things to happen, which can and does effect Christians vs. SENDING them Himself.  Such as what happens in Revelation.  Over and over we see the angels in Heaven declaring that the terrible things are sent BY AND FROM GOD.  Is it Gods character to destroy His children along with wicked?

 

To me, I know He will not.  I don't "believe" or "suppose".  I know He will not.  I will stand on all the things mentioned in the Scriptures ... and I will root all of those things on what MY father of Faith, Abraham, said ... and solidify it with Gods response to Abraham.

 

"I WILL NOT destroy it for the sake of the righteous"

 

If He will not, then He must remove us out of the way.

 

 

Even a sinful father would tell his baby move to step aside before laughing a violent attack on an intruder.  Will God allow Himself to be outdone .... BY A MERE MAN!?

 

Far bet it from the Lord.

 

 

 

6)

Even the early Church was looking for a Rapture!  Paul himself wrote about it!

 

So, how some Christians today have fallen from those teachings and beliefs ... well ... there truly is a Great Falling Away.

[kingdomwitness]

@Donibm. Was it not just for the sin of Achan that God punished all the Israelites? Achan was the only offender but others also suffered. The famine that affected the Northern kingdom of Israel during the reign of Ahab (Ahav) and Jezebel (Izevel), didn't it also affect those who were just and worthy in Israel? Even Elijah (Eliyah) the Prophet had to flee and be fed by ravens that were sent by Yahweh and he even had to be sustained by eating a meal with the widow of Zarepath.

[Guest]

Some say that God can not deal with Israel until He deals with the Church first.

 

This is another pre-trib argument.

 

But that's funny, I've never read that in God's Word.

 

Yeah, like God's hands are tied, because a few people believe such and such.

 

But God punished Israel in the 1st century, while the Church was already growing by leaps and bounds, and Paul had already been preaching to the gentiles for several years.

 

So what makes these people believe that He can not do it again?

 

~

 

If One Can Look

 

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,

 

even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

 

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:

 

and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,

 

to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

 

At The Rapture As The First Resurrection

 

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:

 

and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,

 

and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,

 

neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;

 

and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:

 

on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Revelation 20:4-6

 

While The LORD Descends To Rescue His Israel

 

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying,

 

Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

 

To execute judgment upon all,

 

and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed,

 

and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. Jude 1:14-15

 

It May (Or Not) Clear Up This

 

Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem.

 

The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy:

 

the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.

 

In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack.

 

The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy;

 

he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. Zephaniah 3:14-17

 

Hot Topic

 

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling,

 

and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

 

To the only wise God our Saviour,

 

be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 1:24-25

 

[Donibm]

Kingdomwitness,

 

God is Just ... is He not?

 

Being Just, He MUST punish sin ... right?

 

I see what you are saying with all of those, but have you read Ezekiel?  You should read it again one day.  Ezekiel shows that God has been tempted to wipe the Jews of the face of the earth multiple times.  IN fact, He says that if it weren't for His own names sake, or for His PROMISE to Abraham ... He would have.

 

So, yes He punished them all, because unlike us Gentiles, the Jews COLLECTIVELY AGREED to obey God AS A NATION. 

 

God warned them.  Told them that IF they obeyed, THEN He would bless ... and IF they did NOT obey, THEN He would curse...  and they AGREED.  Not only for themselves, but for their children (descendants) as well.  So, don't think it to be a contradiction, but rather it was/is a NATIONAL thing with them.

 

After Malachi, God went silent for 400 years.  Yes, that is silent to the righteous also. 

 

 

The whole congregation ... is guilty ... because they all agreed as a whole.  They promised to keep them ... but they never really did (again, Ezekiel helps to sum it up nicely, starting in Chapter 2:3)

 

 

 

Keep in mind, this is still different.  We are talking about a promise of deliverance.  Such is absent in the examples you provided.

 

 

BELIEVE what Abraham said - far be it from you to destroy the righteous WITH the wicked.  Believe it and cast off your doubt.  For if Abraham is our father of faith, and God was pleased with Abraham, wouldn't He also be pleased with you in having the SAME FAITH?

 

... indeed He does.  Indeed He does.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Donibm