Donibm

LOL Well, your brain is certainly ticking. But, don't be so quick to go beyond what is written. There is nothing that says our glorified bodies will be blinded by His glory, so don't think that they will. How else can we behold Him as He really is if He's too bright to even look at? And why wouldn't God want His beloved servants and children look at Him and be at awe? God is type of show off you know. lol Have you never read Him boasting about Himself in Scripture? He DESIRES the adoration and praises of His people. In fact, my Father is probably the biggest attention craver in all existence. LOL! Even now, as I type this, I feel the smile of the Holy spirit ... actually AGREEING with this pun. lol Concerning the Rapture. I'm a little disheartened. Ever since all this "blood moon" business, and the fact that the next set of blood moons wont take place for a few hundred years, I felt saddened. I felt saddened because there will be a blood moon during the Tribulation period. So, that means it could another few hundred years before the Rapture takes place. I so wanted to experience that. So want to get off of this planet. So crave to be with the Lord, and the saints of old. But, the world is not completely against Christianity yet. It's heading that way, but it's not at that point yet. And Islam is growing rapidly. Soon the persecution will be ... global. And the Catholic system is also watching, waiting. It's coming, but the time is not yet at hand. But the signs certainly are showing. But anyway ... I suggest you just read the Bible. It gives you all the answers you need. Bubbles and blinding lights and stuff like that suggest that you either aren't reading, or you have a very lively imagination, or both. So, read. But here is what I see. 1) Rapture. 2) War in heaven as Satan and the demons fight Michael and the angels because Satan is trying to stop the raptured souls from entering Heaven, and if finally and permanetly banished from Heaven. 3) Marriage supper feast of the Lamb in Heaven, were all the countless number of saints are in Heaven, praising God and the Lamb because their Salvation is secure and complete, and their troubles are over with ... all while Tribulation is going on in the earth. 4) Gods promise to Jews still remains, however. 144,000 of the males (probably babies and very young boys) are sealed. Satan is out to destroy Israel during the Tribulation. God is pouring out his wrath on the earth. 5) Jesus returns right when all of the Jews are about to be annihilated. In fact, Judaism teaches that they will see the Messiah when the nation faces complete extinction, or when they all convert at once, and in Revelation, it seems that both of these things happen at the same time. Even Jesus told them, "You will not see Me again, not until you learn to say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." meaning, they will never see His face until they repent and convert and believe in Him. 6) Jesus reigns for 1,000 years and those who are left on earth repopulate the planet, rebuild, etc. But, since they are without temptation (Satan bound for 1,000 years), they too must be tempted to show that they love the Lord, or turn from Him. Only then can they enter paradise. So, Satan is allowed to tempt the world again for a period of time. The Bible says that it will be for a short time ... but how many of you know that a "short time" to God can be a couple of thousands of years!? {My hand shoots up first!} Ooo that urks me. lol But it's all about His grace and mercy. 7) Blah, blah, blah The rapture is not going to be a daunting or discombobulating experience. We will be perfectly aware and perfectly knowing. No one will be like "Huh? Where am I? What happened?" Dont miss it. Cause if you do ... you will be on a world that does not have the Spirit of God and not a single saint will be on this planet (though a whole host of half-baked "Christians" and hypocrites and entire 'denominations' will be left behind, claiming that they are the true ones and the rapture is some sort of hoax. Be ready.

Well, for me, I don't care about Him being "fair" or not. Being "fair" is in the fleshy eyes of the beholder, and race, racism, education, cultural influence, upbringing, and the spirit of the person all influence what we think is "fair". But, He is full of Grace and Mercy. His Word never said He was "fair", but He is fair enough to tell us that we would certainly endure hardships on earth, and it is foolish to blame Him for any of it. Deadly even. But, no prophet or apostle or saint that I know of ever called God ... fair. And what is "fair" anyway? That He doesn't allow bad things? If He didn't, He wouldn't be God because He already said that we would ... and He does not lie. Nor is He playing games. But His GRACE is sufficient for me. And His MERCY endureth forever. That is all we need. Fairness is not even an equatable option to bring to the table. And who can judge God even if it was? Who you gonna call? Ghost busters? The KJB? CIA or FBI? Raise Johnny Cockren from the dead? Who is going to bring a case before God? Job was far more righteous than any of us, and he demanded an audience, but when God finaly showed up, he cowered like a little school girl and didn't dare accuse such great Power of anything wrong. He didnt' dare. Be careful what you say of your Creator (typing to every and anyone who reads this, not the OP directly, cause He is no respector of your titles or educational levels or what you do in your Church, and nor am I). He has a sense of humor, but He's not playing any games. If He will destroy His most beautiful of creations - Lucifer - He will destroy the rebellious Jews. And if He will destroy the Jews, he will destroy Christians as well. So, never think that you are some sort of special little pal of God and think you can mouth off freely. Better to learn from the mistakes of Israel and learn to FEAR HIM. "thou shalt not use the Lord name in vain. Anyone who does will not be found guiltless" I so wish Christians knew what this really means.

MOSES / ELIJAH: Most people think that it's these two, because of the nature of the miracles that are worked, and because of the visitation on the mount when Jesus was transfigured. MOSES / ENOCH: Some believe Moses is definate, not only due to the nature of the miracles, but also because of the mystery of Satan arguing over the dead body of Moses. Like, why would Satan even care about a lifeless corpse? They add Enoch because he was raptured, and didn't experience death. NOTE: the key with Enoch is that he was "seventh from Adam". Raptured. As if this is a sign from God that at around the 7,000th (7 days) year of mankind is when the Rapture would occur. There are other passages, and maybe I'll create a thread on it one day. ELIJAH / ENOCH: Some believe this is the combination because neither Elijah nor Enoch tasted death. Both were raptured, and Heaven is not made up of flesh and blood. However, Scriptures also say that we are to be changed, and Elijah was clearly changed and reappeared with Moses when Jesus was transfigured. So, those are the theories. But, I have my own ... which most have not been told or considered themselves. First, I want you to know that I'm not so big on "tradition." Church traditions are often times, wrong. Furtunately, they do not effect Salvation. So, I don't promote tradition just because mommy and daddy believed it, or pastor so-n-so taught it. Keep in mind, Scriptures do not say who the two witnesses are, your Chruch tradition tries to suggest who they are. But, I know that none of these men worked miracles. Not a one of them. It is GOD who works miracles through His people. It is all Gods power. So, why would Moses be sent back into flesh just to die all over again? That doesn't make sense to me. Same for Elijah and Enoch. Is God so short of servants that he needs to send whom he already used? And why are they both from the Old Covenant instead of the New Covenant (ie - Peter or Paul)? Is this because the Dispensation of Grace is over? And so what? The Dispensation of the Law was long over before it. So neither apply. My point is, it could be anyone. It could be the old prophets, or an apostle of the New Covenant, or anyone else. Again, since the power is of God, God can use whomever He will. Right, or wrong? Since the true Church is raptured, maybe God does send two souls back (since there will no longer be any real saints on earth post the Rapture). Again, there are just my thoughts. Not asking any of you to adopt them. And for me, they are just thoughts, not doctrine. It could be Moses and me for all I know, lol. doesn't really matter. I'm just no pigeon-holed by a "tradition" that has been passed down and it ultimately the "only" option due to it being taught over and over again.

Cletus, It also separates the children from the chickens. (lol, I just made that up) Persecution will either drive the redeemed to their knees, deeply rooting them in the Lord ... or it will raise them to their heels while they cowardly run as far away from their relationship to Jesus as they can (to escape the persecution). I pray my heart is ready for any and all forms of persecution, even unto death. I pray that my love will be pure, no matter what I face. That I will be CONVINCED, even as the Disciples were convinced! After all, what sane person would go to a painful death for a ghost or a lie? They were CONVINCED in our Lord Jesus, that He was indeed God the Son. Otherwise, at least ONE of them would have been like, "OK! OK! OK! Wait a minute! We were just kidding! We took the body of Jesus and made this all up. Please dont' boil me alive! Please don't crucify me upside down. Please don't stone me for blasphemy!" ... but that never happened. Not even with one of them. They were convinced that Jesus was indeed God the Son. Convinced and with a pure love. Oh ... such great accomplishments means so much suffering and loss and dedication. I pray that my heart is ready.

Observe something else in the letters. I typed earlier that Jesus opened up with I KNOW in each letter. But also observe His description of Himself. Notice how each description is different, but PART of the full description that John gave prior? Take for instance, the letter to the oppressed Church, who were being killed. Jesus said that He was killed, but ALIVE AGAIN. So, for each letter, the symbolic thing about Jesus was mentioned so that He can not only show that HE KNOWS and UNDERSTANDS, but that HE HAS CONQUERED the very things that they are going through, and through Him, they too will conquer. That is important too, so don't miss it.

See him for what he WAS. :-) Hummmm, I hate to break the news to you but the only thing that has changed is that he was removed from his office at the throne.... he is still who he is. some of you seem to think he's turned into this horrid demonic figure you see in the movies.... you really do need to prepare people for his arrival.... It won't be hard for non believers to be pulled into his deceptions. That is already known. But he is FALLEN regardless. He is no longer the ANOINTED Cherub. He is not longer the Morning Star. He no longer reflects the brightness of Gods Glory (with all the precious stones on his chest) And while I don't recall him ever being called the "ARCH" angel (as Michael is called), he certainly does not have that position. Point being... Bill Clinton WAS President of United States. He IS {no longer} Commander In Chief. He cannot command the armed forces or other Governmental departments. He is still clever, and I still honor him as a man, but his AUTHORITY and POSITION are gone. Likewise... Lucifer WAS something ... and Satan no longer IS. That is my point. I never said he was any less clever. I see him for what he WAS. I also see him for who he IS - someone that IS defeated. Having no power over me, lest it be given from above, from my FATHER. And if my FATHER allows it, it is only because my FATHERS knows I can win over it, or it will make me stronger. It is never to defeat or destroy me. ... like a dog on a leash. EDIT: and I'm not one of "them" who think Satan is some horrid demonic figure, of red dude with a pitch fork. I'm not saying that he is stupendously beautiful either. After all, he IS fallen and the light that he had was never his own. It was a reflection of Gods glory. And no, it's not my calling to prepare the wicked for the "coming" (I assume you mean the Tribulation Period). No. As Jesus said, "they have the Law of Moses and the Prophets. If they do not believe them, neither shall they believe a man who has risen from the dead." They have the Word of God. They can read ... can't they? If they will not repent or learn or read or turn, that is THEIR problem. Let them reap the seeds of their own corruption! I'll do no such thing as prepare the wicked for Jacobs Trouble, or the Great Tribulation. This country wants God out of everything. They want Christianity gone. They don't want prayer. They don't want worship. We are "bible bumpers" and facists! It is as we say, "be careful what you ask for ... because you just might get it." Give them what they ask for O Lord our God! Give them a time without Your Grace or Your people standing in the gap. Give them their Tribulation! ... and the Word of God (prophecy) cannot be broken. It cannot be stopped. These things will happen regardless.

Though I do appreciate what you are trying to say, I have to disagree that we will eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in "Paradise". The only tree mentioned that we will eat of is the Tree of Life (Revelation 22). The tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is never mentioned again as being available to anyone after the incident with Adam and Eve. God Bless, Alan And I must agree with you. :-) I was thinking "tree", but the Tree of Life, not the one mentioned in the garden at that point. Still, there are multiple trees in Heaven, which bear their own fruit each month (perhaps a different fruit each month per tree?) But again, I completely agree with what you are saying. Bad typo/mistake on my part. I seriously doubt that the tree of knowledge will be in the Kingdom ... because we have already partaken of it.

One more thing about the letters. And again people, this is not meant to be exhaustive, and I certainly will not cover line by line, and certainly not all of Revelation. If I did, it would be December and I'll still be typing about it. My only goal of these thread is to point out a few often overlooked things concerning the letters. And even now I am skipping things. But, there is one thing that I believe is more important than anything else I can (or should) type, and it is the reason for the Letters. REPENT!!! Observe: this isn't a message to the world, but a message to CHRISTIANS! REPENT! STOP IT! TURN BACK! YOU ARE BEHAVING TOO MUCH LIKE THE WORLD!! Jesus is giving US, not the world, a stern and sharp warning to repent and turn back, to stop living in sin, to stop compromising the Truth, to stop living with one foot in the Church and one foot in the world, to stop heeding winds of doctrine, the err of Balaam, to stop heeding the Nicolatians, those who profess to be Christians, but aren't, and to even stop honoring the Jews above their station - they who mocked and rejected the Lord. REPENT ... LEST IS REMOVE YOU FROM YOUR PLACE AND SNUFF OUT YOUR CANDLES! This is perhaps, more important than anything else I could type concerning the letter. The letters were written as a WARNING, and a COMMAND for the saints of God to REPENT, not a call to the world to repent, but for US to turn and get serious about our Salvation. And, the promise of what will happen if we do NOT repent is also clearly noted. "Be zealous therefor, and repent, for as much as I love, I chastise" - Jesus I am being very, very serious with you brethren. This is not just another "online thread". I am encouraging your and admonishing you to the best of my ability over a mere webpage, without being wordy or scholastic (even with typing errors). If you fall into any category, or if the Spirit convicts you, be zealous and REPENT! Stop doing it. Turn back. This is the message of the Lord, not the teaching of a mere man. To he that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to ALL CHRISTIANS.

@ bopeep Ignore the psuedoChristians. The letters arent' written for those who are Christian by name only. They are left out of this, as they are left out in Revelation. What I'm saying is that individually, there are Christians like all of the Churches mentioned in Revelation.

Persecution does not destroy the Church ... it promotes it. Seen it happen in Rome, when they made sport of us. Instead of our forefathers going to their deaths whining and begging, they went singing songs of praise to our God. What happened was, all those people saw it over and over again, and then THEY started saying, "these people are innocent!" and then that quickly changed into "Look at how they meet their deaths with singing and praise, not cowardice and fear and pleading! I want what THEY have! I want to know this GOD whom they so adore, even under the pain of death!" ... and Christianity spread. Unfortunately, Satan is more clever than we give him credit. He was watching. His Ba'al had not been removed, it only took on a different form. And as such ... enter Constantine ... and the Catholic Institution ... and the Church was infiltrated and the persecution continued, it was driven underground ... for centuries and centuries ... from fear ... while the Vatican grew and grew. But, there is a purity is suffering. Even as the Scriptures tell us, that "sin looses its power when the body suffers" Tell me, which of you want to go to the nightclub when you have a migraine headache? Which of you want to commit sexual sin with a blown out back? Who is thinking about lying, cheating or stealing when you are burying your beloved parents? Who among you wants to rob a bank when your tooth aches so bad from a much needed root canal? Indeed. Sin looses its power when we suffer. Now, reflect back on what Jesus said to the suffering Church...

@ Cletus I like your quote - Hosea 6:6 It is good that you see that there is no word of condemnation ... especially to the SUFFERING CHURCH. Now, consider our African Christian brothers. Consider how they are being raped, killed, and mutilated by those Muslims. Consider their poverty. Consider their Government doesn't want anything to do with Christendom. They suffer. But, in my eyes, they are some of the most POWERFUL CHRISTIANS ON THE PLANET. Great is their dedication. Great is their love to our Lord. They are not so distracted by all the joys and comforts of Western Civilization. Their preaching is POWERFUL. I've seen one be douced with acid, terribly scarred for life, yet he remains in God and remains steadfast and prayerful. Too many American Christians would have blamed God for their disfigurement and broken marriage due to a permanently and grossly scarred face! Ye! A reputation for being alive, but are DEAD! Ye! A reputation for being rich, but are poor, naked and ashamed! But what blame can I lay at the feet of those brethren in poorer areas of the world? Oppressive areas of the world? What negative thing can I say about the persecuted Indians who are trying to spread the Gospel? So, our Lord does not lay blame either, but instead, He lays comfort. After all, what would it profit God to lay blame and further burden on a people who are suffering for HIM and HIS Glory ... constantly? That would cause anyone to throw in the towel. But our Lords yoke is easy, and His burden is light.

@ bopeep Of course. But remember to attribute it to a PERSONAL and INDIVIDUAL level. The Scripture is for all saints, and whomever falls into that category, falls into it. So, are there Christians like all of these? Absolutely.

@ Spock. Funny. Well, there is another morsel, and it concerns the Jews. The part that says "who say they are Jews, but are not, but are of the synagogue of Satan" ... isn't talking about people who claim to be Jews, it IS about Jews. Let me explain... Jesus is having this message sent to Christians. Jews rejected the Messiah, and as such, were rejected BY the Messiah. They are heading for damnation. No if, ands or buts about it. Jesus Himself said to them that they will feel awful when their fathers and all nations enter in but they themselves are cast out into outter darkness. You see, Isaiah said it. Isaiah told us who and what ISRAEL really is. He said that Israel are those who turn from sin (basically). What Isaiah was saying was reinforced and further explained by Paul. Paul wrote that the real Jew is not the one with blood ties to Jacob, but the one who is INWARDLY. Basically, and African who has a heart towards God and a desire to live for Him is more of a Jew than someone who is unsaved, rejects God, but can prove their geneology tie right back to king David. A lot of things the Paul taught weren't actually new teachings. They were things that existed already in the Hebrew text, such as circumcising the foreskin of your heart. That was what Moses originally taught, not Paul. So, fast forward to Revelation and you see Jesus Himself essentially saying that "You see these Jews? These ones who have rejected Me? These, whom My bride will call "Judaizers" in times to come? They are not of Me. They do not belong to Me. Their persecution of you is of no command of Mine. In fact, I don't even know them and I have already cut them off." Basically, that is what Jesus was saying to those Gentile/Jewish Christians in that Church. He was saying that their geneology means nothing to Him and they are not what they boast about - Gods special little people (for God Himself had cut them off, evidenced by all the suffereing and them being scattered). I think, when people learn what "only a remnant will be saved" really means, they will know that Isaiah was talking about only a small number of Jacobs descendants will enter the Kingdom. But when they also learn what "all of Israel will be saved", they will know that ISRAEL is all the saints, from every nation, tongue, creed, since even before Jacob was born. Job was no Hebrew, but he is indeed part of Israel, because he died in Gods will. This is what Isaiah and Paul were saying ... and what Jesus was eluding to. "They call themselves Jews, but are not, but are of the synagogue of Satan" - Jesus Powerful, powerful words by our Lord. But too often people forget who the audience was - Christians - and they forget about the persecution of the Christians by the Judaizers. But God has told us, that not even the Jews are in any position or right to tell us that we are wrong in Jesus. Think on it. Read it. Pray about it ... if you have a problem with it due to mainstream teaching and rumor spreading. This has nothing to so with "fake Jews", such as these Hebrew Israelites walking around, or these people who go through the hard process of converting to Judaism, and then are called "Jew" ... but have no bloodline to Jacob. Now, this isn't what Jesus is talking about at all. He is talking about JEWS, but because of their rejection of Him, He has rejected them. And since Paul was called and sent by Jesus, is not Paul correct when he says that the REAL JEW is one who is inward (children of faith and obedience) and not one outwardly (bloodline of Jacob)? Jesus warned the Jews not to boast of that, saying that God could turn the very stones into sons of Abraham. lol They trust in their bloodline and traditions to save them, but they are already doomed. Only a remnant... But ALL of Israel will be saved. EDIT: and this is a Messianic Prophecy, that they would reject the Messiah (God) and in turn, will be rejected BY Him.

@ Atwood, For me, I've identified where I fall. I've done it in personal conversation and in online threads. It's really no wonder or question. But I do wonder about those tho think they are "alive" but are dead. I wonder if they can discern who they are. Intersting, but I'm much slower to adopt things that are beyond what is written. Perhaps there is a measure to the movements, but then again, the CHURCH is not a certain area or a certain age of a certain nation. The CHURCH transcends nations, cultures and generations. The CHURCH, are the born against believers, whether they are black, white or Asian, rich or poor, male or female, educated or not, great and mighty in works or new converts. So, to me, it is far beyond an age or movement, though elements of what is in Revelation could most certainly apply.

This is more of a "study" thread, but since I cannot create threads in that section... This is not going to be exhaustive. I'm only going to point out a few simple things that are often overlooked. 1) John was on an island, not travelling all over the place. So, how could he have known what was going on in all those locations? He couldn't. How can someone from Bermuda know what is going on in Cuba, or North Carolina, or Texas, or Florida (before all this technology)? They couldn't. Likewise, John couldn't have known what was going on in those locations, so the RECEPIENTS clearly received the letters with great joy, knowing and convinced that it was inspired by Jesus, not observed by John. 2) Jesus opened each letter with two powerful words, that I'm finding most overlook - I KNOW. Not only was He saying that He was well aware, but that He also understood because He Himself suffered greatly, and was poor, and was often hungry, and was beaten, and made to feel ashamed, etc. 3) The letters were not for those individual Churches only, but for ALL Christians across ALL generations. As the saying goes, "who the cap fits - wear it." We know this because of how each letter ends. "... what the Spirit says to the ChurchES". That is plural. And it is not specific to a location, but to the body of Christ. So, when you read those letters, you should be asking yourself, which of them do YOU fit into. ... maybe some more later. I've a great deal to say about Revelation, but too much to type in any online thread. Still, just sharing these morsels.

@ other one, I'm going to agree with you ... and then sharply disagree. Now to explain why I agree ... and why I disagree. AGREE: I agree that there is One Shepherd and One Flock and One Spirit and One Gospel. Hands down and exclamation point. We are in agreement there. But this thread appears to be meant for more ... entertaining ... conversation. So, let's leave the scholastic and academic political correctness outside, OK? :-) Clearly one is either truly redeemed, or they are kidding themselves. DISAGREE: Now, I disagree on these terms: 1) The Spirit does not give all the same gifts to every single person. So, clearly we use those gifts differently. 2) The Bible clearly talks about the Body of Christ in its PARTS. Some are a hand, some are a foot, some are a ... So clearly, just as the body has different parts, so too are we ... well ... different. 3) Scriptures also clearly talk about the weak Brethren. One brother observes a Sabbath because he thinks it is sacred. I do not. I know all days are the same. Another brother will refuse to eat pork. I do, and I give thanks to God for it. Scriptures call them "weak," not me, cause I don't have a problem with those things. Read it for yourselves. I also refuse to drink alcohol. Some of you brethren reading this right now drink wine. I don't drink because I'm weak or strong, I just refuse to play with that sort of fire which could lead to something I don't want. And I never want to be in a situation that I say "I need a drink." I'm content to say "I need to talk to God about this - now!" But I don't believe that there is a sin in a glass of wine either (drunkenness is the sin). Again, different outlooks ... and those who participate always find is nigh impossible to properly council those who also indulge (be ye PERFECT as your Father is PERFECT ... or you simply will not be as effective as you could/should be). Kinda like, how in the world are you ever going to be effective for God in preaching against divorce, or dealing with married couples ... if you yourself have been divorced? This is why we are told to be PERFECT ... so we can be EFFECTIVE ... in all areas. 3a) Scriptures also talk a bit about carnal Christian also. 4) In Revelation, we clearly see Jesus Himself addressing Churches. Each of them were DIFFERENT and had DIFFERENT behaviors. At the end of each letter, we see "... hear what the Spirit says to the ChurchES". Do you see that? It's plural. I cringe when I hear people say that the message was for that singular Church. It is for the ChurchES, meaning, every individual Christians who knows that it applies to them. regardless of what generation or timeline they live in. 5) Didn't Paul tell Peter off to his face? Didn't Paul and Barnabus disagree sharply? Wasn't Paul far more rambunctious then Barnabus? Course he was. Different personalities. 6) We all have different cultures, nationalities, and personalities ... and parental influences. Of course that will carry over into our Christian walk. Some pastors, for example, are very tolerant, hoping that the Word of God will change peoples hearts. Others simply spew the truth as the truth is - you are wicked and you are going to Hell, even as our Lord did. Again, they are different. But each Christian. That's the point. Yes, those who are truly redeemed ARE Christian. But they have differing characteristics and personalities. So you are actually both right ... in the correct context. 7) And so, I will leave you with... "One plants the seed, and ANOTHER waters it, but it is God who causes it to grow." So yes, we all work the field yards, but even field laborers have different tasks and attitudes. A fingernail does not do the same thing as the nose hairs. Yet each protect and have functions of their own ... and sometimes they work the same thing but from different angles ... like picking the nose. lol FACT: when it is all said and done, brethren, there will be no divides. No denominal or theological barriers. No more misunderstandings. Just PERFECT UNDERSTANDING and a SINGLE MIND that understands it all, as Christ. We will have a perfect understanding. Strive to enter into the narrow gate. Don't be so caught up on online debates or who is wrong and who is right - let GOD be true. You just live as you are supposed to brothers and sisters. The only thing you should be concerned with, is if your name is written in the Lambs Book of Life. Nothing else matters in the end. Nothing. Not even your works or your good deeds.

@ LadyC, LOL There are a lot of "like mes" in the world. After all, there is One Spirit who guides us all who are truly redeemed. The only difference is, which of us pray, seeks, obeys, and SPEAKS what they are told? Which of us refuse to compromise? Which of us will boldy proclaim when others cower in the dark? God help me to be fearless in the face of adversity, even unto death. That is the only difference. This is why so many Christians look at powerful ones and say "I WISH I could be so bold as to stand in the face of that sort of adversity". It is in all of our hearts to truly obey and truly not be lazy and truly do as we should ... but o, man is such a lazy and unconcerned vessel of flesh. But take heart, there is coming that day that we will all be perfect towards Him. That's not a reason to be lazy, but it is a reason to be joyful towards our final home.

Prophecy cannot be broken. Kids shooting schools. God taken out of schools Homosexual running rampant As it was in the days of Lot... Pornography easily accessible Moral depravity everywhere Winds of Doctrine That even the elect could almost fall for the strong persuasions Used to raise a thumb and bum a ride without harm Now, its' too dangerous to raise a thumb Great grandfather used to leave the door open Grandmother used to leave the door closed Father used to leave the door closed and locked I have multiple locks and alarm (and many more carnal minded have guns) Used to give to whomever aksed Now, I've seen them making more $$$ than me, and it's harder for me to give. Of course there is a lack of love. There is always a lack of love ... when there is an increase in SIN!

Interesting thread. I know exactly the sort of Christian I am: 1) I love the Truth 2) I do not like Gods Word being distorted by delusion or tradition (and yes, I see both, even from Christians) 3) I have the gift of discernment ... and love it, love it, love it. In these last and evil days, with all sorts of silly winds of doctrine (rider on a white horse) and so-called "Christians" all around me, and religious people who would rather have a pocket God molded into their own image, it pays to know falsehood just by looking at someone. The Spirit is never, ever wrong. 4) I'm a watcher. After all, the command is to WATCH and pray isn't it? I watch for the signs. I observe the prophecies. I even know the end time prophecies that concern Israel specifically beyond just the nature, and war, and sickness, and financial climate, and technology that leads to a one world, one currency, etc. 5) Considering #4, I love prophecy. If anyone asks me why I believe in Jesus, it's because I can see PROPHECY and I know that no man, or group of men, could have predicted these things. Just not possible. 6) I'm the worst person to try to hide behind titles or accomplishments. In fact, in most cases, as soon as someone says "I work with multiple Churches" or "I'm a thread moderator" or "I'm a evangelist" or "I'm a...." the Spirit gives me discernment on their character right away. Right away I can tell that they are hiding behind their ... minor accomplishments. And each time I am thinking as Paul said, "you have reason to boast? I have much more than you" ... but I don't say a word. Oh, but I can't tell you the amount of people I've had to refute for their bad judgment, discernment, and lack of doing what is Bibilically right, even to the point that they have come back to ME and admitted their own arrogance. I couldn't tell you how many times people have told my wife in our church that I should be X, Y or Z. lol But no: "Be ye not all masters, for ye shall ereceive a harsher Judgment" - Book of James I appreciate when people strive to learn, and through learning, are awarded those man-given accolades, but the moment one goes too far in thinking that they can hide behind them, or try to force special treatment, or make the mistake that they are my spirutal senior, well, lets just say that it was the young Elihu who told of old Job and his three old friends. 7) I see me in Revelation. I first repented in 1991. Gung ho. On fire. Broke up with girlfriend so I wouldn't sin against God. Threw away all my secular cassette tapes. Stopped hanging around friends. Witnessed to everyone. Prayed and read the Word daily. Just madly in love with God. But then, I slowly fell away. Didn't even know I was falling until I had gone too far and looked back. But rededicated my life back to God. But that passion and zeal and "youthful energy" just doesn't seem to be there. I feel that I have "lost my first love" as Revelation says. I also hate the deeds of Nicolaitans. Such were a group od self professing "Christains", but they weren't actually Christian ... just like a lot of ppl in the world today. And yes, just like the Scripture, I test such people, and find them liars! Just as Revelation says. 8) Giving hat I typed in #7, needless to say, I can't stand hypocrites. Weak and carnal brethren I can bare. They can learn the Truth, and eventually change. But a hypocrite is a wolf wearing sheeps clothing. They cannot hide their nature for long ... no matter how hard they try. Get them on the wrong moment on the wrong day ... and you will see their dark hearts laid out before all. But, lol, discernment already told me about them long, long ago. Even when they were smiling and saying all the right, Biblical words. Discernment already knew, for the eyes of the Lord are like balls of fire. Just as fire burns through everything, so to is nothing hidden from Him. 9) I try to see things as GOD sees them, even when that goes against the grain of most Christains (who are pressing the anger of God anyway). 10) I'm not giddy. No high sprung. Introverted. But apparently deep when having one on one conversation with fellow believers .... but I know to sit in silence with my elders and absorb all I can get from them. 11) I'm lazy. Don't fast or pray as much as I should, as much as I know we are COMMANDED to. That explains why there is so little power in Christendom and individual believers these days (among other things). 12) ... and lastly, I know better than to speak high things of myself. Mom said once, only once, to let OTHER PEOPLE speak well of you, not you brag of yourself. Funny how I've never forgotten that. So, on that note, I will respond as Peter did, regardless of everything I've typed about myself so far... LORD, {YOU} KNOW.

I don't know if it needs explaining. Either they believe, or they do not believe. If they believe, then the Spirit is working on them. If they do not believe, well, who told us that WE have the power to give spritually blind men sight? Salvation is of the LORD, not us. Those who are spiritually blind are as blind as a real blind man. Can you say to a blind man, "see this" and expect him to see it? So, why do saints think that you can say to a spritually blind man "see this" and expect them to see it as you do. They cannot. And that is usually because their heart is against God anyway, and he Himself has set up that blindness, and will not remove it not matter how much effot you put in. Don't believe me? Stick around. I have 10 years of debates AND online forums. I've typed til my fingers hurt, practically begged and pleaded and seen people hardly be moved, neither with fear nor with love nor with Truth. It wasn't until now - lat year - that God showed me all about spiritual blindness and how it applies just as those who are physically blind. Blind means blind ... not "kinda hard of seeing." Dead means dead ... not injured or sick. Lost means lost ... not misguided or wayward. Scriptures call them BLIND Scriptures call them DEAD Scriptures call them LOST God is neither kidding nor playing games with the souls of men. He commands that ALL repent. Now, there is another flip to the coin. If they ae seeking truth, and their hearts are ripe, simply tell them the truth. Remember, you are not the authro of their salvation. And often times it's not your word that leads men to repentance or knowledge of truth, but a SERIES of conversations, messages, broadcasts, and personal convictions. You just plant, OR water, but it is the Spirit of God who causes it to grow. And if they are being called, and convicted, He will cause it to grow. So, simply tell the truth and they will find the rest themselves. Interstingly enough, I'm now at the point that I'm the one who now says that I've asked for things like, 10 years ago, and only NOW is god actually answering a lot of those things. ya'll reall need to stop thinking of God as a microwave when He is in fact, a slow simmer. Daniel went in at a teenager, but he was about 85 years of age when cast into the lions den. Did you know that? Hard to tell by just reading the Scriptures that so much time had passed. It was about 13 years after Saul became Paul when he started to preach. Can't really tell by casual reading of those Scriptures either. So my point remains - tell the Truth and if their heart is right, the answers will come. Sometimes quickly, sometimes very slowly. Often times by the time you are answered, its not even important (though you enjoy the revelation of the Truth).

One doesn't have anything to do with the other. How did Jesus talk to sinners? Well, there is your answer. He was tender and caring and careful and truthful with them. His harshest words, however, were reserved for those who DISTORTED THE TRUTH (such as Pharisees, and yes, even Peter who was well-meaning, but wrong). Religious people Jesus was very harsh with. People who distorted the Truth, He was very harsh with. But the common folk, and especially those who were seeking and hurting, He was very gentle with. And with those who were on the right path, He would simply admonish and encourage them to do better, and believe deeper.

Anyway people ... lol ... the point is, there is no reference to it being an APPLE. That is the key topic of this thread, and I think we all agree. Whether you think its' a fruit or some sort of veggie, does it really matter? What does it have to do with your SALVATION? Not a single thing. The Tree is in Paradise, and as long as your name is written in the Lambs Book of Life, you'll eat it IN Paradise. isn't that more important to you that debating over WHAT is actually was on earth? Is this not a little childish (physical and spiritual) to you? If any of you are torn by something so minute and inconsequential, call it a PRODUCE. That way, you won't have to say that it's a fruit or a veggie of any specific kind. Simple solution. After all, the Hebrew word itself also points to a type of produce. ... I'm afraid to read what some of you have to say/think about more doctrinal, deeper and more confounding things concerning the Word of God. This is milk. Not even fresh, enjoyable milk. More like yesterdays milk left in yesterday cup. it is a minor thing. In the words of our Lord, I encourage and admonish you. There is but ONE THING you should rejoice over: not your titles not your education not your positions certainly not your self-delusions to whatever 'rule' you think you have over men not how long you've been a Christian not how big your Church is not who your pastor is not what book(s) you've read not that demons obey you not that limbs grow at your touch not that you prophecy BUT THAT YOUR NAME IS WRITTEN IN THE LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE. If you are focusing on anything else, you have missed the whole point of Gods suffering and sacrifice for you, and you've missed the core meaning of Salvation. Everything else is really not as important as we think it is ... and who among you took a polaroid picture to show the rest of us? OK, so, it wasn't an apple ... cause I've eaten plenty, but I'm dying a little bit more every day. Case closed ... right?

A pastor? My father is an Ordained Minister, so he is approved to marry, dedicate babies, bury the dead, or marry people. He is also Reverend (powerful title, but his least favorite) and Pastor. In fact, he was assistant to the Bishop and Overseer and was next in line. When I first began showing interest, and working with Liberty Baptist University (no longer "Baptist") back in 2002, I was interested in entering the Doctorate in biblical Studies (which had a heavy focus on Hebrew and Greek Scriptures). My father couldn't understand why I'd want that but NOT want to preach, bury people, dedicate babies, marry ppl, etc. Well, I guess it's just not my calling. I don't want to be behind a pulpit. But one on one settings, I'd talk about God (or in most cases, listen as the other person rambles on and on and on) for hours. Still no desire to be a preacher. "Do not all strive to be masters, for you WILL experience a greater judgment." - James I've had people at my Church tell my wife that I should be in certain lifegroups because I'm too advanced. HOGWASH! lol I'm there because I want to be. They are all open enrollment and I want to be there, and while I don't get much out of milk, and desire meatier things, I don't think I'm "too advanced". But, one thing I have expereinced ... is a lot of funerals. Decendant of an American. But born and raised on a British Territories Island called "Bermuda". Very small. Friends and family are very close because of the close proximity that we live to each other (unlike me and my family who live in Chicago or California - the distance keeps us from being close). So, when a friend or a loved one dies ... we feel it to our heart. Lost about 9 friends before I was even 28 years old. Can't recall how many family members. But I do recall the tears. I do recall the heartaches. I do recall the viewings and the wakes. I do recall the pain. I also recall some of the preachers who said the dead person was in Heaven, and I wanted to stone the pastor for lies, knowing that the dead person was no saint and didn't know God. I DESPISE preachers who default to Heaven just because they dont' want to offend. May God Judge them severely, and without pity or mercy, for their lies! Even now, I can still see some of the faces of friends and loved ones. Timeless. Stuck on images that are more than 25 years old for some of them. "Boys" are what I consider their age to be nowadays. For me, Heaven IS the final resting place. Add the new earth in it if you wish. But the Kingdom of God is the final resting place.

See him for what he WAS. :-) Most see him for what he now IS ... and we have no pity on him. None whatsoever. But, when we see things as GOD sees it ... well, I'd disagree. God sees it in light that He has NOT given Lucifer or his kind a redeemer - their doom is completely sealed. Not only that, but when seeing it as God sees it, we see that HELL ITSELF was created with THEM in mind. hell wasn't created with the souls of men in mind. It was created because of SATAN. Seems to me that God has no pity whatsoever. If He did, why'd He create such a terrible, terrible place? So, when I read your words, from a "emotional" and "logical" standpoint, I agree with you. But when I step back, and look to my Heavenly Father and say, "Lord? Your opinion is?" ... and then these things flood my mind. All I see is banishment, a lack of forgiveness, no "Messiah" to save them, and an unspeakable place of torment, for ETERNITY. No. I see things differently. I pray consistently that God will help me to see things as HE sees them ... always. I pray for it. And I see answers to a multitude of my prayers lately. I believe God honors it when people are serious about their Salvation, and honor Him, His character and His Word first and foremost. I know it actually. But, I'm being reminded... But I do like your final point. Not as one of rejoicing, but one of fear ... even if you didn't mean it as I see it. If God would utterly destroy His GREATEST creation, why O why should Jews and now Christains, be arrogant into thinking that God would not destroy them in Hellfire? That is the arrogance that I see among Christains. The same arrogance that the Jews were once guilty of. Even Paul said to be afraid, for if God will break off the natural branches, certainly He would break off the engrafted branches! he warned against arrogance and self-delusion. I love the Lord. I desire goodness, but I also can be lazy in many things. I FEAR Him and His power. I FEAR being wrong about His Word and/or His character. I FEAR telling someone the wrong thing. I FEAR even typing the wrong thing in online threads (for even the Scribe will face the same punishment and damnation as the Pharisee). God preserve our souls, in these last and evil days. EDIT: but for the BLOOD OF THE LAMB. But for the Blood. So, there it is. Our endings are in complete agreement. But for GRACE, where would we be? I am thankful for His great mercy and tender kindness.

Some follow Apollo. Some follow Paul. Paul was very troubled by that, saying "did Paul die for you? Did Apollo?" That Church is NOT divided. However, there were also FALSE Christians. Gnostics. Nicolaitans whom God has said that He hates their deeds (seen in Revelation). Having denominations is a GOOD thing, because how else will you know their creed or theology? I'd hate to step into a Kingdom Hall and receive their false teachings just cause I see "Church" at the entrance way. So, denominations do have a good position. Jesus said, "Let the tares grow WITH the wheat" ... and when the time is ripe, the reapers will be sent to gather then both, and the wheat will be put in teh Barnhouse for safe keeping, but the tares cast into the fire. So, don't loose heart, and know who and what the Church is. PsuedoChristians are NOT part of the fold. The Church is NOT divided, regardless of the simple things that we may not agree on. As long as the CORE ELEMENTS of Salvation and Sanctification remain, we are brethren.