The Amish

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

 

I did not go to a Mormon service, but according to the Mormon website, Mormons believe that Jesus is the Son of God who died as an atonement for sins, and one must repent and believe in Jesus.

 

Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus is the Son of God, Who died for sins, and one must repent and believe in Jesus.  

 

 

 

Neither Mormons or JW's believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.

 

These two cults are not Christian.

 

I would agree that they are not Christian, but based on the statement that belief the Jesus is the Son of God Who died for sins, and one must repent and believe in Jesus, both Mormons and JW's would agree with that statement. It is what is added which nullifies them as Christian.

 

But that summarizes my point in the entirety. Many people and many religious groups would state that Jesus is the Son of God Who died for sins, and one must repent and believe in Jesus, but it is what is added which actually determines the persons state.

 

 

1.  What other religions besides Christianity believe Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God?  Please name a couple or at least one (technically, Christians do not believe they are a religion but for sake of yr post)?

 

2. Mormons:  Mormons believe that there are in fact four sources of divinely inspired words, not just one: 1) The Bible “as far as it is translated correctly.” Which verses are considered incorrectly translated is not always made clear. 2) The Book of Mormon, which was “translated” by Smith and published in 1830. Smith claimed it is the “most correct book” on earth and that a person can get closer to God by following its precepts “than by any other book.” 3) The Doctrine and Covenants, containing a collection of modern revelations regarding the “Church of Jesus Christ as it has been restored.” 4) The Pearl of the Great Price, which is considered by Mormons to “clarify” doctrines and teachings that were lost from the Bible and adds its own information about the earth's creation.

Mormons believe the following about God: He has not always been the Supreme Being of the universe, but attained that status through righteous living and persistent effort. They believe God the Father has a “body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s.” Though abandoned by modern Mormon leaders, Brigham Young taught that Adam actually was God and the father of Jesus Christ.

 

ouch.  not Christian  They also believe that Jesus is the brother of the devil.  really.

Read more:http://www.gotquestions.org/Mormons.html#ixzz2hzoDhp6p  (this info can be found all over the net )  They present what most

people think they believe, but once you get into their teaching, you find that it does not agree with the Bible

 

2. JW:  The Jehovah's Witnesses were founded by Charles Taze Russell, a former haberdasher from Philadelphia, in early 1872 in Alleghany, Pa. Russell was born on Feb. 16, 1852 in Pittsburgh, and died on Oct. 31, 1916. He was baptized a Congregationalist, and was raised in a strict Protestant family. His later study of the Bible led him to deny the existence of hell and the doctrine of the Trinity, and to express Arian views concerning the nature of Jesus Christ, denying His divinity.

 

According to the Jehovah's Witnesses, there is one God, and since 1931, they have insisted that He be called "Jehovah." This is a corruption in the pronunciation of the Hebrew <Yahweh>, which occurred about the third century B.C. and was carried into the King James Bible's translation of <Yahweh> in Exodus 6:3. The Jehovah's Witnesses say that Jesus is God's Son, but is inferior to God. They condemn the Trinity as pagan idolatry and accordingly deny Christ's divinity. Russell even claimed that the Trinity was the idea of Satan. Ironically, however, when they baptize, they use the formula, "...In the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Nevertheless, the Jehovah's Witnesses consider Jesus as the greatest Witness of all, inferior to no one except Jehovah Himself. Before existing as a human being, Jesus was a spiritual creature called the Logos, or Word, or even Michael the Archangel. He died as a man and was raised as an immortal Spirit-Son. His passion and death were the price He paid to regain for mankind the right to live eternally on earth. Indeed, the great multitude of true Witnesses hope in an earthly Paradise (These teachings echo the heresies which the early Church condemned beginning at the council of Nicea in 325).

 

more ouch.

 

These views of Jesus and other views, are usually spoken of as 'another Jesus'...ie  NOT the Jesus of the Bible

 

 

I am not sure but I think you are missing what I am saying. I totally agree with you that Mormons and JW's are not Christian denominations.

 

If we use as a judgement whether a group can be classified as Christian the statement,   from Romans 10:9

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

both Mormons and JW's claim to believe that. In that verse, there is no mention of Jesus being the only begotten son.

 

So a group which claims to believe Romans 10:9, and then alters who Jesus is, or adds to the way of salvation, is a group which had a different way of salvation. A person might even say they believe in the gospel, but not actually believe in Jesus. 

 

The statement was made that the Amish believe Romans 10:9, and all else is not important in terms of salvation. As long as they believe in Romans 10:9, the rest is just unnecessary rules or beliefs.  

 

As far as Mormons... from their web site http://mormon.org/faq/belief-in-jesus-christ

 

(my own comment... While the term Jehovah is a bad misunderstanding of the pronunciation of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton, Jesus is also a poor transliteration of Yeshua. I know of Christian Churches, Christian songs and books which use Jehovah, so it is not really a reason to eliminate groups. I once heard a television preacher try to use Hebrew to make a point, and I was totally shocked to hear the way he slaughtered the pronunciation of the Hebrew words. So badly pronounced, I didn't recognize what he was saying until he gave the definition of the words. Then I knew the words he was actually trying to say. ) 

[Micheal Westin]

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure what the beef is about, you know full well that the rules the Amish say will send them to hell are false, what's the big deal if they keep rules that will not make a difference, they still will go to heaven! isn't that what the whole race to the finish line is all about, receiving the prize, so they jumped a bunch of extra hurdles, maybe ran up and down a few unnecessary hills, I would conclude going the extra mile to be a safer bet than what the liberal Christianity tries to sell, and will find themselves being called workers of iniquity on the day of judgment

for they were taught not to overcome sin but to simply live in it as if it were not sin, or that living in sin is covered by the blood 

The big deal is that they are teaching false things about the gospel.

 

gal 1:8

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.

 

Jesus, His apostles, did not preach a gospel which included shunning the technology of the civilization around them or suggest that failing to adhere to complex rules leading to excommunication is tied up in the salvation of people.

 

they have the correct gospel, Jesus the Son of God, dying on the cross as a sacrifice for sins, repenting and believing in Jesus Christ everything else will be tested by fire

 

 

So that I had a better understanding of Christianity, I had a mentor/teacher, tell me to go to various church services to compare them and note the apparent differing beliefs. I went to a Lutheran service, a Roman Catholic service, a Congregational service, a Unitarian Universalist service, and a few others.  

 

Lutherans teach that Jesus is the Son of God who died on the cross as a sacrifice for sins, and one must repent and believe in Jesus.

Romans Catholics teach that Jesus is the Son of God who died on the cross as a sacrifice for sins, and one must repent and believe in Jesus.

Congregationalists teach that Jesus is the Son of God who died on the cross as a sacrifice for sins, and one must repent and believe in Jesus.

 

Unitarian Universalists do not teach the Jesus is the Son of God who dies on the cross as a sacrifice for sins, etc. So, this is the only religious group which is not Christian at least in form.

 

I did not go to a Mormon service, but according to the Mormon website, Mormons believe that Jesus is the Son of God who died as an atonement for sins, and one must repent and believe in Jesus.

 

Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus is the Son of God, Who died for sins, and one must repent and believe in Jesus.  

 

yes that is the gospel the bible teaches Romans 10:9-10 "That if you confess with your mouth , Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

 

Is this not the gospel that is saving you?

 

 

Yes, and no.

 

If I confess with my mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in my heart that God raised Him from the dead, I will receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who leads us into truth.

 

Now, if I then believe the Jesus is not God, and argue that Jesus is not God, do I really have the indwelling Holy Spirit?

 

If I was baptized as a baby, and believe that Jesus is Lord and that God raised Him from the dead, and that my baptism when I was a baby plus those beliefs includes me among those who are saved, is my faith in Jesus or in my baptism for salvation?

 

If I believe Jesus is Lord and God raised Him from the dead, and, as a member of the church which teaches the uncompromised truth and that church membership is important to be counted among the saved, is my faith in Jesus and my church membership?

 

There are a lot of groups which teach the fundmentals plus add to them. Salvation is by grace thru faith in Jesus completed work. Some children were raised in homes of church going parents. Children claim to be the religion of the parents, and believe what they have been taught, but have not truly placed their faith in Jesus alone.   

 

It is not the good news/gospel which saves. It is actually Jesus Who saves.

 

the bible clearly teaches what the foundation of the faith is, and what is built on this foundation will be tested with fire, from this fire we see some escaping through the flames of their theology and errant beliefs, after being tested with fire much of their added doctrine and rhetoric will be destroyed yet their faith in belief that Jesus is the Son of God and died for their sins is clearly the saving gospel. and while suffering great loss they will still be saved! this truth can be found in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.

 

some people like to add to the gospel that saves, and some of their added theology is of gold and precious stones, and from what we see in some of the churches that have added whole books of beliefs which will burn like straw on the day of the Lord 

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure what the beef is about, you know full well that the rules the Amish say will send them to hell are false, what's the big deal if they keep rules that will not make a difference, they still will go to heaven! isn't that what the whole race to the finish line is all about, receiving the prize, so they jumped a bunch of extra hurdles, maybe ran up and down a few unnecessary hills, I would conclude going the extra mile to be a safer bet than what the liberal Christianity tries to sell, and will find themselves being called workers of iniquity on the day of judgment

for they were taught not to overcome sin but to simply live in it as if it were not sin, or that living in sin is covered by the blood 

The big deal is that they are teaching false things about the gospel.

 

gal 1:8

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.

 

Jesus, His apostles, did not preach a gospel which included shunning the technology of the civilization around them or suggest that failing to adhere to complex rules leading to excommunication is tied up in the salvation of people.

 

they have the correct gospel, Jesus the Son of God, dying on the cross as a sacrifice for sins, repenting and believing in Jesus Christ everything else will be tested by fire

 

 

So that I had a better understanding of Christianity, I had a mentor/teacher, tell me to go to various church services to compare them and note the apparent differing beliefs. I went to a Lutheran service, a Roman Catholic service, a Congregational service, a Unitarian Universalist service, and a few others.  

 

Lutherans teach that Jesus is the Son of God who died on the cross as a sacrifice for sins, and one must repent and believe in Jesus.

Romans Catholics teach that Jesus is the Son of God who died on the cross as a sacrifice for sins, and one must repent and believe in Jesus.

Congregationalists teach that Jesus is the Son of God who died on the cross as a sacrifice for sins, and one must repent and believe in Jesus.

 

Unitarian Universalists do not teach the Jesus is the Son of God who dies on the cross as a sacrifice for sins, etc. So, this is the only religious group which is not Christian at least in form.

 

I did not go to a Mormon service, but according to the Mormon website, Mormons believe that Jesus is the Son of God who died as an atonement for sins, and one must repent and believe in Jesus.

 

Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus is the Son of God, Who died for sins, and one must repent and believe in Jesus.  

 

yes that is the gospel the bible teaches Romans 10:9-10 "That if you confess with your mouth , Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

 

Is this not the gospel that is saving you?

 

 

Yes, and no.

 

If I confess with my mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in my heart that God raised Him from the dead, I will receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who leads us into truth.

 

Now, if I then believe the Jesus is not God, and argue that Jesus is not God, do I really have the indwelling Holy Spirit?

 

If I was baptized as a baby, and believe that Jesus is Lord and that God raised Him from the dead, and that my baptism when I was a baby plus those beliefs includes me among those who are saved, is my faith in Jesus or in my baptism for salvation?

 

If I believe Jesus is Lord and God raised Him from the dead, and, as a member of the church which teaches the uncompromised truth and that church membership is important to be counted among the saved, is my faith in Jesus and my church membership?

 

There are a lot of groups which teach the fundmentals plus add to them. Salvation is by grace thru faith in Jesus completed work. Some children were raised in homes of church going parents. Children claim to be the religion of the parents, and believe what they have been taught, but have not truly placed their faith in Jesus alone.   

 

It is not the good news/gospel which saves. It is actually Jesus Who saves.

 

the bible clearly teaches what the foundation of the faith is, and what is built on this foundation will be tested with fire, from this fire we see some escaping through the flames of their theology and errant beliefs, after being tested with fire much of their added doctrine and rhetoric will be destroyed yet their faith in belief that Jesus is the Son of God and died for their sins is clearly the saving gospel. and while suffering great loss they will still be saved! this truth can be found in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.

 

some people like to add to the gospel that saves, and some of their added theology is of gold and precious stones, and from what we see in some of the churches that have added whole books of beliefs which will burn like straw on the day of the Lord 

 

Ok, so you are assuming that a person who denies the Deity of Jesus is saved, as long as they believe He is the Son. And you are assuming that a person who believes that Jesus had brothers is saved, as long as He is regarded as the Son. And you are assuming that a person who believes that Jesus died for sin, and a person who believes has all of their sins up to that point forgiven, but must do something to get their sins forgiven after the moment of belief.

 

There are all kinds of variations, many which are not considered valid by much of Christianity. Based on your view, Mormons and JW's are saved.  

 

I still go back to the scripture which says.

 

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. ²² Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many ^[n]miracles?’ ²³ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

 

These verses go on to say that some people have built their houses on sand, which will not hold up.

 

I have met people who called themselves Christians, and when I asked when they became a Christian, they will say they have been a Christian since they were born. No one is born (physically) a Christian, even if they have been taught that Jesus is the Son of God Who died for sin and rose again. They might believe that to be true to some extent, but have never placed their faith in Jesus.

 

Are there false messiahs? The sad answer is yes. Do some teach falsely about Jesus? Yes. Is a false Jesus really the Jesus Who saves? No. A false Jesus presents a false New Covenant. If a person accepts a false version of the New Covenant, there is no salvation offered by God in the false new covenant.

 

   

[Micheal Westin]

 

 

 

 

I did not go to a Mormon service, but according to the Mormon website, Mormons believe that Jesus is the Son of God who died as an atonement for sins, and one must repent and believe in Jesus.

 

Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus is the Son of God, Who died for sins, and one must repent and believe in Jesus.  

 

 

 

Neither Mormons or JW's believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.

 

These two cults are not Christian.

 

I would agree that they are not Christian, but based on the statement that belief the Jesus is the Son of God Who died for sins, and one must repent and believe in Jesus, both Mormons and JW's would agree with that statement. It is what is added which nullifies them as Christian.

 

But that summarizes my point in the entirety. Many people and many religious groups would state that Jesus is the Son of God Who died for sins, and one must repent and believe in Jesus, but it is what is added which actually determines the persons state.

 

 

1.  What other religions besides Christianity believe Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God?  Please name a couple or at least one (technically, Christians do not believe they are a religion but for sake of yr post)?

 

2. Mormons:  Mormons believe that there are in fact four sources of divinely inspired words, not just one: 1) The Bible “as far as it is translated correctly.” Which verses are considered incorrectly translated is not always made clear. 2) The Book of Mormon, which was “translated” by Smith and published in 1830. Smith claimed it is the “most correct book” on earth and that a person can get closer to God by following its precepts “than by any other book.” 3) The Doctrine and Covenants, containing a collection of modern revelations regarding the “Church of Jesus Christ as it has been restored.” 4) The Pearl of the Great Price, which is considered by Mormons to “clarify” doctrines and teachings that were lost from the Bible and adds its own information about the earth's creation.

Mormons believe the following about God: He has not always been the Supreme Being of the universe, but attained that status through righteous living and persistent effort. They believe God the Father has a “body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s.” Though abandoned by modern Mormon leaders, Brigham Young taught that Adam actually was God and the father of Jesus Christ.

 

ouch.  not Christian  They also believe that Jesus is the brother of the devil.  really.

Read more:http://www.gotquestions.org/Mormons.html#ixzz2hzoDhp6p  (this info can be found all over the net )  They present what most

people think they believe, but once you get into their teaching, you find that it does not agree with the Bible

 

2. JW:  The Jehovah's Witnesses were founded by Charles Taze Russell, a former haberdasher from Philadelphia, in early 1872 in Alleghany, Pa. Russell was born on Feb. 16, 1852 in Pittsburgh, and died on Oct. 31, 1916. He was baptized a Congregationalist, and was raised in a strict Protestant family. His later study of the Bible led him to deny the existence of hell and the doctrine of the Trinity, and to express Arian views concerning the nature of Jesus Christ, denying His divinity.

 

According to the Jehovah's Witnesses, there is one God, and since 1931, they have insisted that He be called "Jehovah." This is a corruption in the pronunciation of the Hebrew <Yahweh>, which occurred about the third century B.C. and was carried into the King James Bible's translation of <Yahweh> in Exodus 6:3. The Jehovah's Witnesses say that Jesus is God's Son, but is inferior to God. They condemn the Trinity as pagan idolatry and accordingly deny Christ's divinity. Russell even claimed that the Trinity was the idea of Satan. Ironically, however, when they baptize, they use the formula, "...In the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Nevertheless, the Jehovah's Witnesses consider Jesus as the greatest Witness of all, inferior to no one except Jehovah Himself. Before existing as a human being, Jesus was a spiritual creature called the Logos, or Word, or even Michael the Archangel. He died as a man and was raised as an immortal Spirit-Son. His passion and death were the price He paid to regain for mankind the right to live eternally on earth. Indeed, the great multitude of true Witnesses hope in an earthly Paradise (These teachings echo the heresies which the early Church condemned beginning at the council of Nicea in 325).

 

more ouch.

 

These views of Jesus and other views, are usually spoken of as 'another Jesus'...ie  NOT the Jesus of the Bible

 

Its another Jesus? you mean there was another Jesus born of a virgin Mary, who had a husband named Joseph and both had the same genealogy as both of the Mary and Joseph we know from our bible going all the way back to the Fathers of the faith Abraham, Moses and all the others. 

 

I believe they have the same Jesus, they simply have added a whole bunch of stuff that is completely false, they are who Paul writes about in the building on the foundation of Christ, all the straw will be burned up but the people who confess Jesus is the Lord and believe in their heart that He died on the cross for the salvation of their souls will be saved just as Paul clearly teaches they will be in 1 Cor 3:15

[Micheal Westin]

Trinity....

while I believe in the trinity, I don't see it in scripture (anywhere) as a game changer, believing Jesus is the Son of God and that He died on the cross for the redemption of our sins is the good news (gospel), If this is the foundation its only what's added to it that will be tested with fire.

[Micheal Westin]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure what the beef is about, you know full well that the rules the Amish say will send them to hell are false, what's the big deal if they keep rules that will not make a difference, they still will go to heaven! isn't that what the whole race to the finish line is all about, receiving the prize, so they jumped a bunch of extra hurdles, maybe ran up and down a few unnecessary hills, I would conclude going the extra mile to be a safer bet than what the liberal Christianity tries to sell, and will find themselves being called workers of iniquity on the day of judgment

for they were taught not to overcome sin but to simply live in it as if it were not sin, or that living in sin is covered by the blood 

The big deal is that they are teaching false things about the gospel.

 

gal 1:8

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.

 

Jesus, His apostles, did not preach a gospel which included shunning the technology of the civilization around them or suggest that failing to adhere to complex rules leading to excommunication is tied up in the salvation of people.

 

they have the correct gospel, Jesus the Son of God, dying on the cross as a sacrifice for sins, repenting and believing in Jesus Christ everything else will be tested by fire

 

 

So that I had a better understanding of Christianity, I had a mentor/teacher, tell me to go to various church services to compare them and note the apparent differing beliefs. I went to a Lutheran service, a Roman Catholic service, a Congregational service, a Unitarian Universalist service, and a few others.  

 

Lutherans teach that Jesus is the Son of God who died on the cross as a sacrifice for sins, and one must repent and believe in Jesus.

Romans Catholics teach that Jesus is the Son of God who died on the cross as a sacrifice for sins, and one must repent and believe in Jesus.

Congregationalists teach that Jesus is the Son of God who died on the cross as a sacrifice for sins, and one must repent and believe in Jesus.

 

Unitarian Universalists do not teach the Jesus is the Son of God who dies on the cross as a sacrifice for sins, etc. So, this is the only religious group which is not Christian at least in form.

 

I did not go to a Mormon service, but according to the Mormon website, Mormons believe that Jesus is the Son of God who died as an atonement for sins, and one must repent and believe in Jesus.

 

Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus is the Son of God, Who died for sins, and one must repent and believe in Jesus.  

 

yes that is the gospel the bible teaches Romans 10:9-10 "That if you confess with your mouth , Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

 

Is this not the gospel that is saving you?

 

 

Yes, and no.

 

If I confess with my mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in my heart that God raised Him from the dead, I will receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who leads us into truth.

 

Now, if I then believe the Jesus is not God, and argue that Jesus is not God, do I really have the indwelling Holy Spirit?

 

If I was baptized as a baby, and believe that Jesus is Lord and that God raised Him from the dead, and that my baptism when I was a baby plus those beliefs includes me among those who are saved, is my faith in Jesus or in my baptism for salvation?

 

If I believe Jesus is Lord and God raised Him from the dead, and, as a member of the church which teaches the uncompromised truth and that church membership is important to be counted among the saved, is my faith in Jesus and my church membership?

 

There are a lot of groups which teach the fundmentals plus add to them. Salvation is by grace thru faith in Jesus completed work. Some children were raised in homes of church going parents. Children claim to be the religion of the parents, and believe what they have been taught, but have not truly placed their faith in Jesus alone.   

 

It is not the good news/gospel which saves. It is actually Jesus Who saves.

 

the bible clearly teaches what the foundation of the faith is, and what is built on this foundation will be tested with fire, from this fire we see some escaping through the flames of their theology and errant beliefs, after being tested with fire much of their added doctrine and rhetoric will be destroyed yet their faith in belief that Jesus is the Son of God and died for their sins is clearly the saving gospel. and while suffering great loss they will still be saved! this truth can be found in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.

 

some people like to add to the gospel that saves, and some of their added theology is of gold and precious stones, and from what we see in some of the churches that have added whole books of beliefs which will burn like straw on the day of the Lord 

 

Ok, so you are assuming that a person who denies the Deity of Jesus is saved, as long as they believe He is the Son. And you are assuming that a person who believes that Jesus had brothers is saved, as long as He is regarded as the Son. And you are assuming that a person who believes that Jesus died for sin, and a person who believes has all of their sins up to that point forgiven, but must do something to get their sins forgiven after the moment of belief.

 

There are all kinds of variations, many which are not considered valid by much of Christianity. Based on your view, Mormons and JW's are saved.  

 

I still go back to the scripture which says.

 

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. ²² Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many ^[n]miracles?’ ²³ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

 

These verses go on to say that some people have built their houses on sand, which will not hold up.

 

I have met people who called themselves Christians, and when I asked when they became a Christian, they will say they have been a Christian since they were born. No one is born (physically) a Christian, even if they have been taught that Jesus is the Son of God Who died for sin and rose again. They might believe that to be true to some extent, but have never placed their faith in Jesus.

 

Are there false messiahs? The sad answer is yes. Do some teach falsely about Jesus? Yes. Is a false Jesus really the Jesus Who saves? No. A false Jesus presents a false New Covenant. If a person accepts a false version of the New Covenant, there is no salvation offered by God in the false new covenant.

 

   

 

I would try to really see what the context was for Jesus refusing those who said "Lord, Lord" He gives His reason at the end of the verse .......they practice lawlessness and they did not do the will of the Father, its also important to read the prior verses to see what this is actually addressing, the work of false prophets and their false teachings and what appears to be what is considered miracles and the casting out of demons and wonderful prophecies

context would attribute the "Lord"" Lord" statement to be from these false prophets, as the whole passage is completely directed at them and their actions

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure what the beef is about, you know full well that the rules the Amish say will send them to hell are false, what's the big deal if they keep rules that will not make a difference, they still will go to heaven! isn't that what the whole race to the finish line is all about, receiving the prize, so they jumped a bunch of extra hurdles, maybe ran up and down a few unnecessary hills, I would conclude going the extra mile to be a safer bet than what the liberal Christianity tries to sell, and will find themselves being called workers of iniquity on the day of judgment

for they were taught not to overcome sin but to simply live in it as if it were not sin, or that living in sin is covered by the blood 

The big deal is that they are teaching false things about the gospel.

 

gal 1:8

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.

 

Jesus, His apostles, did not preach a gospel which included shunning the technology of the civilization around them or suggest that failing to adhere to complex rules leading to excommunication is tied up in the salvation of people.

 

they have the correct gospel, Jesus the Son of God, dying on the cross as a sacrifice for sins, repenting and believing in Jesus Christ everything else will be tested by fire

 

 

So that I had a better understanding of Christianity, I had a mentor/teacher, tell me to go to various church services to compare them and note the apparent differing beliefs. I went to a Lutheran service, a Roman Catholic service, a Congregational service, a Unitarian Universalist service, and a few others.  

 

Lutherans teach that Jesus is the Son of God who died on the cross as a sacrifice for sins, and one must repent and believe in Jesus.

Romans Catholics teach that Jesus is the Son of God who died on the cross as a sacrifice for sins, and one must repent and believe in Jesus.

Congregationalists teach that Jesus is the Son of God who died on the cross as a sacrifice for sins, and one must repent and believe in Jesus.

 

Unitarian Universalists do not teach the Jesus is the Son of God who dies on the cross as a sacrifice for sins, etc. So, this is the only religious group which is not Christian at least in form.

 

I did not go to a Mormon service, but according to the Mormon website, Mormons believe that Jesus is the Son of God who died as an atonement for sins, and one must repent and believe in Jesus.

 

Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus is the Son of God, Who died for sins, and one must repent and believe in Jesus.  

 

yes that is the gospel the bible teaches Romans 10:9-10 "That if you confess with your mouth , Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

 

Is this not the gospel that is saving you?

 

 

Yes, and no.

 

If I confess with my mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in my heart that God raised Him from the dead, I will receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who leads us into truth.

 

Now, if I then believe the Jesus is not God, and argue that Jesus is not God, do I really have the indwelling Holy Spirit?

 

If I was baptized as a baby, and believe that Jesus is Lord and that God raised Him from the dead, and that my baptism when I was a baby plus those beliefs includes me among those who are saved, is my faith in Jesus or in my baptism for salvation?

 

If I believe Jesus is Lord and God raised Him from the dead, and, as a member of the church which teaches the uncompromised truth and that church membership is important to be counted among the saved, is my faith in Jesus and my church membership?

 

There are a lot of groups which teach the fundmentals plus add to them. Salvation is by grace thru faith in Jesus completed work. Some children were raised in homes of church going parents. Children claim to be the religion of the parents, and believe what they have been taught, but have not truly placed their faith in Jesus alone.   

 

It is not the good news/gospel which saves. It is actually Jesus Who saves.

 

the bible clearly teaches what the foundation of the faith is, and what is built on this foundation will be tested with fire, from this fire we see some escaping through the flames of their theology and errant beliefs, after being tested with fire much of their added doctrine and rhetoric will be destroyed yet their faith in belief that Jesus is the Son of God and died for their sins is clearly the saving gospel. and while suffering great loss they will still be saved! this truth can be found in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.

 

some people like to add to the gospel that saves, and some of their added theology is of gold and precious stones, and from what we see in some of the churches that have added whole books of beliefs which will burn like straw on the day of the Lord 

 

Ok, so you are assuming that a person who denies the Deity of Jesus is saved, as long as they believe He is the Son. And you are assuming that a person who believes that Jesus had brothers is saved, as long as He is regarded as the Son. And you are assuming that a person who believes that Jesus died for sin, and a person who believes has all of their sins up to that point forgiven, but must do something to get their sins forgiven after the moment of belief.

 

There are all kinds of variations, many which are not considered valid by much of Christianity. Based on your view, Mormons and JW's are saved.  

 

I still go back to the scripture which says.

 

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. ²² Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many ^[n]miracles?’ ²³ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

 

These verses go on to say that some people have built their houses on sand, which will not hold up.

 

I have met people who called themselves Christians, and when I asked when they became a Christian, they will say they have been a Christian since they were born. No one is born (physically) a Christian, even if they have been taught that Jesus is the Son of God Who died for sin and rose again. They might believe that to be true to some extent, but have never placed their faith in Jesus.

 

Are there false messiahs? The sad answer is yes. Do some teach falsely about Jesus? Yes. Is a false Jesus really the Jesus Who saves? No. A false Jesus presents a false New Covenant. If a person accepts a false version of the New Covenant, there is no salvation offered by God in the false new covenant.

 

   

 

I would try to really see what the context was for Jesus refusing those who said "Lord, Lord" He gives His reason at the end of the verse .......they practice lawlessness and they did not do the will of the Father, its also important to read the prior verses to see what this is actually addressing, the work of false prophets and their false teachings and what appears to be what is considered miracles and the casting out of demons and wonderful prophecies

context would attribute the "Lord"" Lord" statement to be from these false prophets, as the whole passage is completely directed at them and their actions

 

Exactly. False prophets, false teachers, speaking about a false Jesus and a false way of salvation. A false covenant  because it is based on a lie.

 

The false prophets went up to the real Jesus and claimed to do their works in the real Jesus name, but the real Jesus rejected them as His because Jesus never knew them.  They were not teachers or prophets of the Lord. So, the Mormons claim to be doing works of the real Jesus, but are they actually false teachers, false prophets, teaching and prophesying using Jesus name but not sanctioned by Jesus so they actually are not prophets or teachers of the Lord.

 

Having listened to some false prophets and teachers, they will have some truth in what they say mixed with lies, which point utlimately in the wrong direction and do not really lead to faith in the real Jesus. Some of it sounds good, but mixed with lies the teaching or prophesy actually is deceptive and the conclusion is false.   

[Guest Butero]

 

 

Butero, on 16 Oct 2013 - 12:45 AM, said:

The problem with what Sevenseas said is that James says that faith without works is dead.  The idea we are saved by faith and works don't have to follow is just as false as the gospel that says you can be saved simply by following rules.  Qnts2 says that there are people that will believe they are going to heaven because of works and be deceived.  There are just as many believing they are saved because they believe in Jesus, but they are only fooling themselves.  No, all the rules the Amish follow are not necessary for salvation, but neither are they prohibited.  So what if someone tells their followers they must not own a car?  The people are free to leave if they don't like that rule.  Nobody is forcing them to comply. 

 

 

 

 

Butero...I'll just write this the one time.  You are consistent...I'll give you that.

 

There is no problem with what I wrote.  The problem comes with you deliberately twisting what I wrote.

 

Works do not save anyone.  Jesus Christ saves all who come to Him and trust in Him.

 

Those who come to Him and trust in Him for their salvation will do good works...as led by the Holy Spirit because works of the flesh are not of God

 

Why do you this?  Why do you consistently twist what I say?  It's beyond the pale.

 

Everyone who knows me here knows I do not believe what you wrote. 

 

Legalism is a nasty disase and adds to the work of Christ.

 

Legalism will not save you and neither will what you wear or do not wear.

 

I didn't deliberately twist anything you said.  You came against works.  You didn't say "works of the flesh."  The things you do can't save you, but failing to live right can cost you your salvation, and that includes wearing sinful attire.  The anti-legalism teaching is a false doctrine, and is a "nasty disease," that will lead many Christians into hell's flames, as they believe they are saved but are not. 

[Guest Butero]

When it comes to the issue of what is a cult, we seem to be all over the place?  If you simply use the Dictionary definition of a cult as your guide, the Southern Baptist Church could be considered a cult, so technically, when someone claims the Amish are a cult, you can make a case for it?  The word has no real meaning anymore.  When I used to hear the word cult, I thought of Jim Jones or the UFO cult?  It was always a group that denied the deity of Christ.  I never threw it around in reference to a group that was simply controlling.  As such, groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses and Latter Day Saints are a cult, because they deny the deity of Christ, though they believe in him.  The Latter Day Saints are a peculiar group in that the Book Of Mormon seems to indicate Jesus is God, but they deny it because of later teachings of Joseph Smith.  They don't even follow the teachings of the Book they promote.  If they did, and recognized Jesus as being God, though I would reject the Book of Mormon as the work of Joseph Smith's imagination, I would not call the Mormons a cult, just in serious error. 

 

The Amish do accept the deity of Jesus, and they have the knowledge to be saved.  To me, that is all that matters.  To me, those raised Amish are better off than the rest of us, as they have been spared the corruption of this wicked culture.  They don't face all the temptations we do on a regular basis.  If this life was it, and I had no hope of the next world to come, I would join those who seem to make it their life's mission to try to attack groups like this who keep their people living very strict lives.  I would say we should "eat, drink and be merry," because you only go around once, so you might as well live for the here and now?  I don't believe this life is it, so I don't look at it as a priority to pull people out of groups that are controlling.  The average lifespan is 70 to 80 years, so who cares if you wind up denying the flesh of things it could have partaken of and gotten away with it?  You have eternity to live in the presence of God.  I would rather be held back from carnal pleasures now than be a castaway later on living too close to the edge.  The only ones I feel any need to try to convert are those in real cult religions where they don't know who Jesus is. 

[Guest Butero]

Here is what is is:

 

A gospel of grace vs a gospel of works

 

Those who are saved by grace...the LOVE of God for us represented in the ultimate sacrifice of God's only begotten and sinless Son will do good works.

 

Those who feel the need to ADD to God's perfection, will ultimately end up adding works to God's grace as in...you MUST do this or that

 

Micheal, not meaning to disparage you, but presenting a verse out of context or altering the meaning because of a lack of proper biblical exegesis, history or even simple understanding,

does not verify one's belief as truth.

 

The gospel of grace in our Lord Jesus Christ is a pivotal and absolute in our acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus.  Adding to that sacrifice, diminishes that truth...this is not my personal

understanding, but the understanding of all those who comprehend what is taught by Paul in the book of Romans and the New Testament in general

 

You cannot add to the grace of God with works.  However, those under grace ultimately do good works.

 

Here are the comments I was said to have misrepresented, and no wonder.  It sounds like SS is taking both sides of the argument?  One could say I was misrepresenting part of what she said, but not everything she said.  Lets examine this closely. 

 

She made it about a "gospel of grace verses a gospel of works?"  By doing that, she feels the need to go one way or the other, and it appears she is taking the side of grace, meaning she is attacking works.  Right after that, she appears to do a 180?  She tells us that those who are saved will do good works.  How can that be if it is one way or the other?  I reject her first comment, but I agree with the next one that contradicts the first one.  Confusing?  I'd say so!  Lets continue. 

 

She says that those who feel the need to add to God's perfect plan of salvation will add works, saying not to do things.  This seems to be a return to her first comment where she says it is about a "gospel of grace verses a gospel of works," and is taking the side of grace.  It is almost like watching the tennis ball go back and forth, or a pendulum swinging side to side. 

 

She then goes on to tell Michael how he is misunderstanding the text, and just doesn't get it.  She says everyone with any real understanding of the text will see things as she does, and I completely reject that absurd claim.  Everyone doesn't agree with her interpretation, and that doesn't make them wrong.  It could be those who believe like SS that are wrong?  Of course, that is hard to do when she has taken both sides? 

 

The last comment jams both opposing thoughts together, and makes them a type of oxymoron.  It is not two words with opposite meanings, but two thoughts.  She says you can't add to the grace of God with works, yet those who are under grace ultimately do good works.  This is a total contradiction, but I do think I understand what she is meaning?  I think she is saying that those who are saved by grace will have good works follow on their own, but even if that is her meaning, by admitting that, it is an admission that it isn't a gospel of grace verses works, but both go hand in hand.  I would also go so far as to suspect she is inconsistent when she says we shouldn't add to grace by saying not to do certain things?  I know she doesn't believe it is right to commit adultery, so if I were to say we as Christians shouldn't commit adultery, by her own comments, I have added works to "God's perfection." 

 

I leave it up to the reader to decide if I am taking SS comments out of context and intentionally misrepresenting them?