How to refute cults in general JW's specifically

[Remnantrob]

Zec 3:1  And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

Zec 3:2  And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

 

Joshua is standing before the angel of the Lord. The term, "angel of the LORD" used in the O T is often seen as Christ. In this text without a doubt, it is the Lord that rebukes Satan. The Bible never refers to the Lord as the archangel Michael. Michael is never called "the angel of the LORD."

 

Well it is a term used for Jesus in the OT as you stated but that same term has the word angel and yet it's not a problem to most Christians.  That's the point I am trying to get across that just because it says angel, it doesn't mean Christ is/was a created being.  It is a term/title just like Christ is likened to a Rock, Bread, Door, etc.  The bible never refers to Michael as the angel of the Lord but I belief God leaves things for us to search out...hidden manna. We don't see the term trinity in the bible but we believe it because there is evidence from searching the scriptures that the Godhead encompasses a trinity.  Thanks for your response.

[AlanLamb0986]

 

Paul clearly makes the distinction between the Son and the Angels. He asks 'has an angel every been worshiped?'

 

 

Amen. I have no problem with Paul.  I agree that angels(created beings) don't receive worship.  But could you tell me who this angel is in Judges 13?  The reason I asked is because he seemed to have received worship.  Also the angel in Exodus 3 that was in the burning bush.  I would like to point out that just because I am bringing these scenarios up, please don't assume that I believe Christ is a created ministering being. 

 

Michael the archangel is perhaps the highest of all the angels. Michael is the only angel in the Bible who is designated “the archangel” (Jude verse 9). Michael the archangel, though, is only an angel. He is not God. The clear distinction in the power and authority of Michael and Jesus can be seen in comparing Matthew 4:10, where Jesus rebukes Satan, and Jude verse 9, where Michael the archangel “dared not bring a judgment of blasphemy” against Satan and calls on the Lord to rebuke him. If Michael was Jesus, then he would be Lord, and wouldn't need to call on God to rebuke Satan, since he could do it himself

 

 

At least you're honest about him being the only designated archangel in the bible. To answer your question about the rebuke, I have seen God do the same thing as Michael did in the book of Zechariah.

 

 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

² And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

 

There is an Angel in the Bible that is often believed to be the pre-incarnation of Christ. However, this angel is not Michael. Michael doesn't speak as God, but let's God rebuke Satan, knowing that it isn't his place to judge. Michael was never worshiped, and was never likened to God. But the Angel of the Lord, I stress NOT Michael, was different. The angel of the Lord speaks as God, identifies Himself with God, and exercises the responsibilities of God (Genesis 16:7-12;21:17-18;22:11-18;Exodus 3:2;Judges 2:1-4;5:23;6:11-24;13:3-22;2 Samuel 24:16;Zechariah 1:12;3:1;12:8). In several of these appearances, those who saw the angel of the Lord feared for their lives because they had “seen the Lord.” Therefore, it is clear that in at least some instances, the angel of the Lord is a theophany, an appearance of God in physical form. The AOL was Jesus, pre His earthly ministry. I don't believe that Jesus was/is an Angel, He is the eternal Son of God. But I do believe that He appeared 'clothed' as an Angel to speak to mankind before His birth.

[Remnantrob]

Remember that this is being written from the eyes of the witness. If Jesus was writing it, it may of read (2) And I said to Satan, I rebuke the ...

 

It’s because it was written from the witness of the eyes that it is such a profound statement.  By writing that Jesus would have written it this way, you are adding your own ideas to what is already there.  The other authors of the bible seemed to get it correct when writing as a witness and speaking as if they were God saying I will do this or I said this.  Therefore I can’t accept your response here.  It clearly says the Lord said, the Lord Rebuke you.

[Remnantrob]

The title Lord is used in different ways in scripture and is easy to misuse the term, one being a title of their master, a in Lord (add a persons last name), and the LORD, usually meaning Jesus.

 

 

I understand this but it really doesn’t speak to my response to the “fact” that Jesus/God would never say the Lord rebuke you when the bible shows that He does and it did happen before.

 

[AlanLamb0986]

I'm confused. Are we saying that because the person said 'The LORD rebuke you', then the person speaking cannot be God?

[Remnantrob]

May I ask what scriptures you use to indicate that Jesus is Michael? This still is not clear to me. You said:

 

What you seem to be saying is that Michael is not a created being, that He is part of the Godhead. Please explain ...

 

 

 

Ok.  Most Christians agree that the angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Christ.  He appears in the burning bush to Moses, He appears to Sampson’s parents, He appears to Joshua as the captain of the host of the Lord in Josh. 5.  This angel even accepts worship from Joshua. 

How about back in Exodus 23?

²⁰ Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

²¹ Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

²² But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.

God said the his name is in this particular angel that he was sending to the Israelites.  And he has the authority to pardon transgressions.  Who else but God can do these things.

How about the name Michael?  It’s origin is Hebrew and what does the name mean?   I’ll let you look it up. 

Also in Jude Michael is raising the body of Moses from the dead.  1Thess. 4:16 says the voice of this archangel has resurrecting power.  You are Christians and know the only voice that has power over the dead to raise them in the gospels so I don’t need to post those texts.  Who else could it be but Christ?  I don’t know why Christ would be described this way but that’s one of the questions I plan on asking when he comes back.  That’s a quick summary of why I know Michael is Christ Jesus, but not necessarily a created being because it says angel.

[Remnantrob]

I'm confused. Are we saying that because the person said 'The LORD rebuke you', then the person speaking cannot be God?

 

Great observation.

[Remnantrob]

 

 

Paul clearly makes the distinction between the Son and the Angels. He asks 'has an angel every been worshiped?'

 

 

Amen. I have no problem with Paul.  I agree that angels(created beings) don't receive worship.  But could you tell me who this angel is in Judges 13?  The reason I asked is because he seemed to have received worship.  Also the angel in Exodus 3 that was in the burning bush.  I would like to point out that just because I am bringing these scenarios up, please don't assume that I believe Christ is a created ministering being. 

 

Michael the archangel is perhaps the highest of all the angels. Michael is the only angel in the Bible who is designated “the archangel” (Jude verse 9). Michael the archangel, though, is only an angel. He is not God. The clear distinction in the power and authority of Michael and Jesus can be seen in comparing Matthew 4:10, where Jesus rebukes Satan, and Jude verse 9, where Michael the archangel “dared not bring a judgment of blasphemy” against Satan and calls on the Lord to rebuke him. If Michael was Jesus, then he would be Lord, and wouldn't need to call on God to rebuke Satan, since he could do it himself

 

 

At least you're honest about him being the only designated archangel in the bible. To answer your question about the rebuke, I have seen God do the same thing as Michael did in the book of Zechariah.

 

 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

² And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

 

There is an Angel in the Bible that is often believed to be the pre-incarnation of Christ. However, this angel is not Michael. Michael doesn't speak as God, but let's God rebuke Satan, knowing that it isn't his place to judge. Michael was never worshiped, and was never likened to God. But the Angel of the Lord, I stress NOT Michael, was different. The angel of the Lord speaks as God, identifies Himself with God, and exercises the responsibilities of God (Genesis 16:7-12;21:17-18;22:11-18;Exodus 3:2;Judges 2:1-4;5:23;6:11-24;13:3-22;2 Samuel 24:16;Zechariah 1:12;3:1;12:8). In several of these appearances, those who saw the angel of the Lord feared for their lives because they had “seen the Lord.” Therefore, it is clear that in at least some instances, the angel of the Lord is a theophany, an appearance of God in physical form. The AOL was Jesus, pre His earthly ministry. I don't believe that Jesus was/is an Angel, He is the eternal Son of God. But I do believe that He appeared 'clothed' as an Angel to speak to mankind before His birth.

 

Can I ask you something Alan?  you said the pre-incarnation of Christ was clothed as an angel...so why would it be that far of a stretch to say he was clothed as Michael for a purpose.  It doesn't mean he is that he is an actual angel.  Maybe it was the way that he veiled himself to angels.  Maybe this is what brought iniquity in Lucifer in the beginning....I don't know...what I do know is that there is a lot of evidence linking him to Jesus. 

[AlanLamb0986]

 

I'm confused. Are we saying that because the person said 'The LORD rebuke you', then the person speaking cannot be God?

 

Great observation.

 

The fact that Michael said 'The LORD rebuke you' is because he isn't God. It wasn't Michael's place to condemn Satan. Let me paste an entire chapter:

 

On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was standing on the bank of the great river, the Tigris, 5 I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. 6 His body was like topaz, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.

7 I, Daniel, was the only one who saw the vision; those who were with me did not see it,but such terror overwhelmed them that they fled and hid themselves. 8 So I was left alone, gazing at this great vision; I had no strength left, my face turned deathly pale and I was helpless. 9 Then I heard him speaking, and as I listened to him, I fell into a deep sleep, my face to the ground.

10 A hand touched me and set me trembling on my hands and knees. 11 He said, “Daniel, you who are highly esteemed, consider carefully the words I am about to speak to you, and stand up, for I have now been sent to you.” And when he said this to me, I stood up trembling.

12 Then he continued, “Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. 13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. 14 Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come.”

15 While he was saying this to me, I bowed with my face toward the ground and was speechless. 16 Then one who looked like a man[b] touched my lips, and I opened my mouth and began to speak. I said to the one standing before me, “I am overcome with anguish because of the vision, my lord, and I feel very weak. 17 How can I, your servant, talk with you, my lord? My strength is gone and I can hardly breathe.”

18 Again the one who looked like a man touched me and gave me strength. 19 “Do not be afraid, you who are highly esteemed,” he said. “Peace! Be strong now; be strong.”

When he spoke to me, I was strengthened and said, “Speak, my lord, since you have given me strength.”

20 So he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; 21 but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince.

 

Ok, in this verse, someone is speaking to Daniel. His body is like topaz, his face is like lightning, and his eyes were like fire. In the Book of Revelation, the Word (Jesus/John1:1) is described as having eyes 'like blazing fire.' (Revelation 1:14) This person also 'looks like a man.' Daniel notes that he saw 'one who is like a son of man' (Daniel 7:13.), who approached the Ancient of Days, and was given all authority over all nations, and is worshiped by all people. Can we agree that this person that Daniel is speaking to is the eternal Son of God- Jesus. If Jesus and Michael are the same being, then why does the person in the text (Jesus) state that Michael came to help Him? Would Michael, the pre-incarnation of Jesus, who is blatantly speaking here, speak in the third person?

Daniel calls Him 'my lord', Daniel calls himself the servant of the person speaking. Daniel was the servant of God, not an angel. The person in this text is clearly the pre-incarnation of Jesus, and isn't Michael, since He refers to Michael as a separate entity who was aiding Him. 

[AlanLamb0986]

 

 

 

Paul clearly makes the distinction between the Son and the Angels. He asks 'has an angel every been worshiped?'

 

 

Amen. I have no problem with Paul.  I agree that angels(created beings) don't receive worship.  But could you tell me who this angel is in Judges 13?  The reason I asked is because he seemed to have received worship.  Also the angel in Exodus 3 that was in the burning bush.  I would like to point out that just because I am bringing these scenarios up, please don't assume that I believe Christ is a created ministering being. 

 

Michael the archangel is perhaps the highest of all the angels. Michael is the only angel in the Bible who is designated “the archangel” (Jude verse 9). Michael the archangel, though, is only an angel. He is not God. The clear distinction in the power and authority of Michael and Jesus can be seen in comparing Matthew 4:10, where Jesus rebukes Satan, and Jude verse 9, where Michael the archangel “dared not bring a judgment of blasphemy” against Satan and calls on the Lord to rebuke him. If Michael was Jesus, then he would be Lord, and wouldn't need to call on God to rebuke Satan, since he could do it himself

 

 

At least you're honest about him being the only designated archangel in the bible. To answer your question about the rebuke, I have seen God do the same thing as Michael did in the book of Zechariah.

 

 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

² And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

 

There is an Angel in the Bible that is often believed to be the pre-incarnation of Christ. However, this angel is not Michael. Michael doesn't speak as God, but let's God rebuke Satan, knowing that it isn't his place to judge. Michael was never worshiped, and was never likened to God. But the Angel of the Lord, I stress NOT Michael, was different. The angel of the Lord speaks as God, identifies Himself with God, and exercises the responsibilities of God (Genesis 16:7-12;21:17-18;22:11-18;Exodus 3:2;Judges 2:1-4;5:23;6:11-24;13:3-22;2 Samuel 24:16;Zechariah 1:12;3:1;12:8). In several of these appearances, those who saw the angel of the Lord feared for their lives because they had “seen the Lord.” Therefore, it is clear that in at least some instances, the angel of the Lord is a theophany, an appearance of God in physical form. The AOL was Jesus, pre His earthly ministry. I don't believe that Jesus was/is an Angel, He is the eternal Son of God. But I do believe that He appeared 'clothed' as an Angel to speak to mankind before His birth.

 

Can I ask you something Alan?  you said the pre-incarnation of Christ was clothed as an angel...so why would it be that far of a stretch to say he was clothed as Michael for a purpose.  It doesn't mean he is that he is an actual angel.  Maybe it was the way that he veiled himself to angels.  Maybe this is what brought iniquity in Lucifer in the beginning....I don't know...what I do know is that there is a lot of evidence linking him to Jesus. 

 

Are you saying that Jesus is Michael, or He clothed Himself as Michael? Michael and Jesus are not the same person. You'd have to believe either Michael is uncreated and eternal, or that Jesus was created. The Bible makes it clear that only God existed in the beginning, ergo Michael didn't. The Bible makes it clear that Jesus was uncreated who existed at the beginning. They cannot be the same. No mainline Christian Church believes this, it's a JW belief. The Trinity is God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit. All three eternal, all three are God. For Michael to be the pre-incarnation of Jesus, you'd have to deny the Trinity OR claim that Michael is God the Son. So he's God, and an angel?

According to the Jehovah’s Witnesses, “Jesus is not God and never claimed to be” (“Should You Believe…?,” 2000). Rather, Jesus can be understood “from the scriptures to be Michael the Archangel” (The Watchtower, 1979, p. 29). “Michael the great prince is none other than Jesus Christ himself,” they allege (The Watchtower, 1984, p. 29). The May 15, 1969 issue of Jehovah’s Witnesses’ Watchtower magazine suggested: “There is Scriptural evidence for concluding that Michael was the name of Jesus Christ before he left heaven and after his return” (p. 307). Where is the “scriptural evidence” for such a doctrine? In an article titled “The Truth About Angels” that appears on the official web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses (www.watchtower.org), 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Jude 9 were the only two passages listed as proof that “the foremost angel, both in power and authority, is the archangel, Jesus Christ, also called Michael” (2001).

Michael the archangel is mentioned only five times in the Bible (Daniel 10:13,21; 12:1; Jude 9; Revelation 12:7), and yet never do these passages indicate that he is to be equated with the preincarnate Christ, nor with the ascended Jesus. First Thessalonians 4:16 also alludes to “an archangel,” and, although the name Michael is not mentioned, this is the passage Jehovah’s Witnesses frequently cite as proof of Jesus being the archangel. Concerning the Second Coming of Christ, Paul wrote: “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first” (emp. added). Supposedly, since Jesus is described as descending from heaven “with the voice of an archangel,” then He must be the archangel Michael. However, this verse does not teach that Jesus is an archangel, but that at His Second Coming He will be accompanied “with the voice of an archangel.” Just as He will be attended “with a shout” and “with the trumpet of God,” so will He be accompanied “with the voice of an archangel.” Question: If Jesus’ descension from heaven “with the voice of an archangel” makes Him (as Jehovah’s Witnesses claim) the archangel Michael, then does His descent “with the trumpetof God” not also make Him God? Jehovah’s Witnesses reject this latter conclusion, yet they accept the first. Such inconsistency is one proof of their erroneous teachings about Jesus.

One of the strongest arguments against Jesus being an angel is found in the book of Hebrews. In chapter one, the writer of Hebrews showed the superiority of Jesus over the angelic beings, and contrasted Him with them.

For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son”? But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.” And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire.” But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain; and they will all grow old like a garment; like a cloak You will fold them up, and they will be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not fail.” But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool”? (1:5-13).

Jesus’ superiority over the angels is seen in the fact that the Father spoke to Jesus as His special begotten Son to Whom He gave the seat of honor at His right hand (1:5,13). Furthermore, the writer of Hebrews indicated that God commanded all angels to worship Jesus (1:6; cf. Revelation 5:11-13; Philippians 2:10). Yet, if Jesus were an angel, how could He accept the worship of other “lesser” angels when, according to Revelation 19:10 and 22:8-9, angels do not accept worship, but rather preach the worship of God, and no other? Hebrews chapter one is a death knell to the idea of Jesus, the Son of God, being Michael, the archangel. [NOTE: Interestingly, John H. Paton, the most frequently used contributing writer in 1879 of Charles Taze Russel (the founder of The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society), admitted such when he stated in The Watchtower magazine near the end of its inaugural year: “Hence it is said, ‘let all the angels of God worship him’: (that must include Michael, the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God)…” (1879, p. 4, emp. added). Sadly, even though Paton rejected the idea of Jesus being Michael the archangel, and even though Russell, The Watchtower's founder and first editor and publisher, allowed such a teaching in the magazine's first year of publication, Jehovah’s Witnesses today hold firmly to the doctrine that Jesus is Michael, the archangel.]

The writer of Hebrews returned to the subject of Jesus’ superiority over angels in chapter two, saying, “He [God] has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels” (2:5). To whom will the world be in subjection? Scripture indicates that it would be Jesus, “the appointed heir of all things” (Hebrews 1:2). “All authority” has been given, not to any angel, but to Jesus (Matthew 28:18). All angels, authorities, and powers “have been made subject to Him” (1 Peter 3:22). “In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him” (Hebrews 2:8, NIV, emp. added). Jesus, therefore, is not Michael, the archangel, “for it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come” (Hebrews 2:5,RSV).

One final proof that Jesus is not Michael the archangel actually comes from one of the five passages in which Michael’s name is found in Scripture—Jude 9. According to Jude: “Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you!’ ” Whereas Michael would not dare pronounce a railing judgment against the devil (cf. 2 Peter 2:11), Jesus once declared about Satan: “He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it” (John 8:44). Jesus did not approach the subject of rebuking Satan with the same hesitation as godly angels like Michael. Jesus, as Lord of heaven and Earth (Matthew 28:18), boldly called the devil a murderer and liar, and even went so far as to declare that “there is no truth in him.” The Son of God obviously is not Michael the archangel.

I find it extremely puzzling how Jehovah’s Witnesses can conclude that there is no biblical proof of Jesus being deity, and yet at the same time allege that “[t]here is Scriptural evidence for concluding that Michael was the name of Jesus Christ before he left heaven and after his return” (Watchtower, 1969, p. 307, emp. added). Where is the evidence? There is none. Jesus is not Michael the archangel; rather, He is exactly Who the apostle John said He was (John 1:1,14), Who Thomas said He was (John 20:28), and even Who His enemies accused Him of making Himself (John 5:18; 10:33). Jesus is God!

Edited January 23, 2014 by AlanLamb0986