Can every Believer be rich/blessed/favored/speak-in-tongues/be healed?

[TheCurseOfTheRodain]

 

We are not supposed to make idols and superstars out of human beings.  I would hope that the Body of Christ would have seen enough of the fall of these 'super' Christians caught in sin of all kinds, to stop idolizing so many of them.

 

 

If anyone "idolizes" Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer, Jesse Duplantis, Jerry Savelle, Keith Moore, Creflo Dollar, Bill Winston, Joseph Prince, John Hagee, etc then are fools to do so.

BUT, PAUL said "Follow ME, as I follow Christ." From what you think, it sure sounds like a "super-Christiany" thing to say doesn't it? And he also corrected those who said, "I follow Apollos, or I follow Peter, or I follow Paul." because it was creating divisions in the Church with those silly attitudes. But he DID say to follow HIM, and that is what people are saying, they're saying, WOW, I see Kenneth/Keith/Joseph/Jesse/Jerry/etc preaching this stuff and getting results in their OWN lives and the lives of those they are ministering the Word to - boy, I'd really like to do that too! Praise God for the faith walks of these preachers so that I can be taught how to do the same and get the same results! Hallelujah!

[TheCurseOfTheRodain]

 

Rodain,

 

Read Post #106.   Jesus was not claiming men are Gods.  He was defending His own Divinity in John 10.  The irony is that you deny Jesus' deity but use Jesus words to claim that mere men are gods (deity) and you do it with a passage that is actually defending Jesus' deity.    That shows how deluded  and heretical the Word of Faith teachings are.

 

 

I have never ONCE denied Jesus' deity, do not presume to say such filth. What I told you was that Jesus said He emptied Himself of His DIVINE PRIVELEGES, and that He was found in FASHION AS A MAN. He was GOD in a human body (look at my previous post on that you will see this exact phrase, how you get that I said He was not divine I do not comprehend).

 

The point was that ALL He did, He did it AS A MAN (as God in a man's body, therefore a MAN, but still God, never ceasing to BE God, but being fully a man (otherwise if He were fully God, HOW can He make the statement that only the FATHER KNOWS when He returns, surely that is a date God would know, unless He intentionally limited Himself so that He would not...on top of this, if He were not limited as He has said, then why did He have to pray the Father's will to be done? Why could He not just do it the same way the Father did in Genesis 1? Why did He not make another way to legally obtain back everything the Devil had gained from Adam's treason? After all, Jesus didn't want to do it that way).

 

And if He did all the miracles and healings and so forth as GOD, then He is a LIAR, because He could not (multiple times) make the statement that WHOSOEVER/ANYONE who believes in Him would DO THE SAME WORKS He has done and EVEN GREATER. Only if He did those things as a man could He say that it would be true, or else only God could do them, being God.

Edited December 9, 2013 by TheCurseOfTheRodain

[Guest shiloh357]

I have never ONCE denied Jesus' deity, do not presume to say such filth. What I told you was that Jesus said He emptied Himself of His DIVINE PRIVELEGES, and that He was found in FASHION AS A MAN. He was GOD in a human body (look at my previous post on that you will see this exact phrase, how you get that I said He was not divine I do not comprehend).

 

Actually, in this thread>>> appeared that you denied Jesus deity while on earth.  I was not the only one who got that distinct impression.  That is why the modertaor split it off into another thread.  Go and look at what you said that gave a clear and distinct impression that you were denying that Jesus was both fully God and fully man while on earth.   You were not claiming that Jesus gave up divine privileges,  That does not appear in your words at all.   You were challening the notion that Jesus did not remain God while on earth.  There is a difference between claiming that Jesus gave up divine privileges and claiming that Jesus did not remain God.

The point was that ALL He did, He did it AS A MAN (as God in a man's body, therefore a MAN, but still God, never ceasing to BE God, but being fully a man (otherwise if He were fully God, HOW can He make the statement that only the FATHER KNOWS when He returns, surely that is a date God would know, unless He intentionally limited Himself so that He would not...on top of this, if He were not limited as He has said, then why did He have to pray the Father's will to be done? Why could He not just do it the same way the Father did in Genesis 1? Why did He not make another way to legally obtain back everything the Devil had gained from Adam's treason? After all, Jesus didn't want to do it that way).

 

And if He did all the miracles and healings and so forth as GOD, then He is a LIAR, because He could not (multiple times) make the statement that WHOSOEVER/ANYONE who believes in Him would DO THE SAME WORKS He has done and EVEN GREATER. Only if He did those things as a man could He say that it would be true, or else only God could do them, being God.

 

You are only half right.  Jesus operated as both God and man while on earth.   Jesus did things that only God can do.  Jesus received personally received worship.  Jesus absolved sins and claimed to have the power to absolve.  He exercised personal authority and power over nature and over death. 

 

When Philippians 2 says that Jesus emptied himself it is not referring to the moment of incarnation, but the emptying that occured during Jesus' earthly ministry and His sacrifice of Himself on the cross.  Jesus did not emtpy Himself of anything that made Him God.  Jesus voluntarily limited Himself in terms of some prerogatives of divinity but HE did not empty himself of them.

 

Jesus encountered temptation in His humanity, He prayed in His humanity, He modeled obedience and  forgiveness from the cross in His humanity in order to provide a righteous model for us to follow. 

 

It may be a case that you are back peddling now, and are trying to walk back the exteme claims you made before about Jesus not remaining God, I dunno.  But I know what others and myself read and our responses to you are not made up.  They are based on your own words.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

Haven't you ever noticed that the health of those who oppose and gainsay the message of God's prosperity seems to fail quite often?

No,  What I have noticed is that most preachers who live extravagently have a cultic mentality to ministry, where anyone who challenges them or questions their opulent lifestyle is "cursed."   It is the usual practice of cult leaders to project a curse on anyone who challenges them in order to intimidate their followers into uquestioning submission to everything they say.  It is also why cult leaders can live in immorality and even have adulterous affairs (Like Benny Hinn and Paula While) and still not lose their ministries.

 

Who exactly has failing health because they oppose the false gospel of prosperity? And can you demonstrate a link between their health and their courage to challenge the prosperity false gospel?

 

They sit back and rail with their opinions against how a preacher is led to use the money of the ministry or their own personal money, yet they have no Scriptural authority to do so.

 

No,the problem is that they are using the money that comes into the ministry for themselves and not for the ministry.  They are using that money to buy a mercedes convertible, silk suits, staying in uber elegant motels and spend in one week just on motel rooms what people earn in a year's wages.  And yes, we have the authority to do so. 

 

 

 

Some will say, well I don't think they ought to a have a jet, but they didn't ask you. Others will say I don't believe in that prosperity junk, then be poor. You will never have what you preach against. So if you're saying you don't believe in prosperity/tongues/healing, don't worry, you will never get any of them (even though they are all legally yours to begin with and God is waiting on you to take possession of them and use them).

 

The problem is that you are misrepresenting what is being said.  I have no problem with prosperity.  If a person earns their money in an honest manner, paid their taxes and they get rich, they are free to use that money as they see fit.  I am not advocating that people be poor. 

 

However, ministry money, money that people send into the ministry as a donation for the purpose of aiding the ministry isn't the preacher's money to spend.  That money is not his to go out and recklessly spend on over-the-top exravagence.   That is money that He is accountable before God, for.  Having said that, I do think it is biblical for a reasonable portion of that money to be used for well being of the minister since he doesn't have a regular job.  However, he is accountable for every penny, nonethless. 

 

Surely we can all agree that God is VERY SPECIFIC with EXACTLY what He wants done in any situation. Always has been, always will be. Just look at the Law for a great example of just how easily God gets His points across and how clear they are.

 

THAT BEING SAID, there is NO CAP or SPENDING LIMIT on how preachers spend their money or the money of their ministry. If you think otherwise, let's see the Scripture where God lays out what that cap is; because He is God and VERY specific, and if He wanted a cap, there would BE one.

 

There is no set dollar amount, but you ar asking the wrong question.   The issue isn't about a spending account.  The sin that is being dealt with is the sin of self-indulgence.   Taking ministry money spending it on whatever one desires in the name of "God's promises of prosperity."   Using God to justify fleshly self-indulgence is a sin and the spending cap on that is exaclty ZERO.   It is not a sin to have nice things, but when someone has to always have the most expensive luxury cars, can only eat at the most expensive restauraunts, stay in only the most expensive motel suites on earth,  that is self-indulgence and that is a sin.

 

What is worse is that this lifesytle of self-indulgence is linked to a person's faith in God.  Those who are rich are seen as people who have faith in God, and those who are not rich are given less respect and less honor, as a result.   Those who are in fact, poor, are denigrated as not walking in faith and having a "poverty mentality."  The Bible condemns this kind of favoritism.

 

 

The cap that certain Believers insist on is only mere human opinion from a poverty mentality, because search the Bible, front to back, God never mentioned any limits on preacher's finances (on what they get paid (for Jesus said the worker is worth His wage, but didn't specify how high that wage could go, and so it is limitless) or what they do with the ministry finances).

 

The limitation is placed on them, actually.   The limitation isn't given in dollar amounts, but in terms of responsible stewardship of every penny God places in their hands.  I think if we could pull back the curtain and see what that accountability will look like at the judgment seat of Christ, the way minister's spend their ministry's  money would be radically altered.  Using the "prosperity gospel" as an excuse to live a self-indulgent and greedy lifestyle would quickly dissipate.

 

Now, with that being said, some ministries ARE a crock and there are hucksters looking to make a living on preaching the Gospel, and you shall know them by their fruits. Some ministries are better ground than others for sowing seeds. But the Holy Spirit can lead you to know where you should be sowing, so that you DO reap your harvests.

 

Let the stones fly.

 

Why do you need to "sow seeds" in order to prosper?

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

We are not supposed to make idols and superstars out of human beings.  I would hope that the Body of Christ would have seen enough of the fall of these 'super' Christians caught in sin of all kinds, to stop idolizing so many of them.

 

 

If anyone "idolizes" Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer, Jesse Duplantis, Jerry Savelle, Keith Moore, Creflo Dollar, Bill Winston, Joseph Prince, John Hagee, etc then are fools to do so.

BUT, PAUL said "Follow ME, as I follow Christ." From what you think, it sure sounds like a "super-Christiany" thing to say doesn't it? And he also corrected those who said, "I follow Apollos, or I follow Peter, or I follow Paul." because it was creating divisions in the Church with those silly attitudes. But he DID say to follow HIM, and that is what people are saying, they're saying, WOW, I see Kenneth/Keith/Joseph/Jesse/Jerry/etc preaching this stuff and getting results in their OWN lives and the lives of those they are ministering the Word to - boy, I'd really like to do that too! Praise God for the faith walks of these preachers so that I can be taught how to do the same and get the same results! Hallelujah!

 

When Paul said "follow me as I follow Christ"  he was asking them to emulate him in terms of character.  The word in the original is "imitate."    The results those people, is because they have people collectively donating millions of dollars and spending millions more on their books and CDs/DVDs.  I suppose I could talk about faith if I had the benefit of celebrity status that allows me to draw people in and get them to send me millions and milions of dollars.  That's isn't faith. 

[Guest ninhao]

 

If anyone "idolizes" Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer, Jesse Duplantis, Jerry Savelle, Keith Moore, Creflo Dollar, Bill Winston, Joseph Prince, John Hagee, etc then are fools to do so.

BUT, PAUL said "Follow ME, as I follow Christ." From what you think, it sure sounds like a "super-Christiany" thing to say doesn't it? And he also corrected those who said, "I follow Apollos, or I follow Peter, or I follow Paul." because it was creating divisions in the Church with those silly attitudes. But he DID say to follow HIM, and that is what people are saying, they're saying, WOW, I see Kenneth/Keith/Joseph/Jesse/Jerry/etc preaching this stuff and getting results in their OWN lives and the lives of those they are ministering the Word to - boy, I'd really like to do that too! Praise God for the faith walks of these preachers so that I can be taught how to do the same and get the same results! Hallelujah!

 

 

Here's another scripture you're blatantly misrepresenting Rodain let's take a look at it.

 

 

1Co 11:1  Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

 

For the context of this comment we must look to the preceding chapter.

 

1Co 10:23-24  All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.  (24)  Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.  (  this is humorous because although in the passage "wealth" means " good" or "well being"  it sorta represents what the prosperity teachers actually do )

 

1Co 10:31-33  Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.  (32)  Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:  (33)  Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

 

We can see Paul is demonstrating how he relinquishes personal freedoms ( especially with regard to foods ) so that he will not offend anyone. He was placing others needs above his own and this is why he tells people to follow his example because this is what Jesus did. Ironically these scriptures harm your prosperity teachings because you present self gratification as important rather than self sacrifice which Paul demonstrates.

[Sevenseas]

[Sevenseas]

 

 

We are not supposed to make idols and superstars out of human beings.  I would hope that the Body of Christ would have seen enough of the fall of these 'super' Christians caught in sin of all kinds, to stop idolizing so many of them.

 

 

If anyone "idolizes" Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer, Jesse Duplantis, Jerry Savelle, Keith Moore, Creflo Dollar, Bill Winston, Joseph Prince, John Hagee, etc then are fools to do so.

BUT, PAUL said "Follow ME, as I follow Christ." From what you think, it sure sounds like a "super-Christiany" thing to say doesn't it? And he also corrected those who said, "I follow Apollos, or I follow Peter, or I follow Paul." because it was creating divisions in the Church with those silly attitudes. But he DID say to follow HIM, and that is what people are saying, they're saying, WOW, I see Kenneth/Keith/Joseph/Jesse/Jerry/etc preaching this stuff and getting results in their OWN lives and the lives of those they are ministering the Word to - boy, I'd really like to do that too! Praise God for the faith walks of these preachers so that I can be taught how to do the same and get the same results! Hallelujah!

 

 

No.  Paul was an Apostle and the Bible records that Christ appeared PERSONALLY to Paul and PERSONALLY called Paul to ministry.

 

Now I understand that many WOF teachers....Mr. Hinn being an EXTREME case in point (that blasphemous Jesus is on the platform episode)...say they have seen Jesus, hear Jesus

and Jesus is their best bud...but as their teaching is not scriptural, I venture to state they may be listening to spirits all right, but not THE Holy Spirit.

 

IF There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal 3:28) then I think it pretty safe to say, that even though

a super class of Christian is omitted, it was omitted simply because it was not even considered.  The fact that we are all one in Christ and the spiritual gifts are for the body of Christ, ( as

opposed to the presentation of false teachers and prophets who make outrageous and grievous claims that God appears to them or angels chat with them all day long or God has

given them extra Biblical revelations...and ENDLESS prophecies that have not come true) then a super Christian would simply not exist in the context of the revered and almost worshipped teachers of WOF.

 

Praise God may be the catchphrase of the day in some circles, but God is not praised nor does He accept that which has been conceived in the vain imaginings of those who fancy themselves

somehow more acceptable to God in Christ then the rest of us.

 

Warnings such as 'don't touch God's annointed' can be heard all over meetings in which the WOF congregants gather.  Who is God's annointed?  The things is, the Holy Spirit dwells within every

Christian and along with that FACT is the ability to discern.  It is not God's fault that so very many have thrown aside their own personal relationship with God and have a relationship with the

man or woman on the platform instead.

 

people are saying, they're saying, WOW, I see Kenneth/Keith/Joseph/Jesse/Jerry/etc preaching this stuff and getting results in their OWN lives and the lives of those they are ministering the Word to - boy, I'd really like to do that too

 

 

Yes, they certainly are.  And one day, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD. 

 

What is actually happening, is that people are emulating people.  They are not following God and not following the Holy Spirit.  There are many  FAKE and deceptive 

manifestations occurring in meetings...I have been to enough of them to have experienced it first hand and know what I am talking about...many of these manifestations

are demonic and people accept them because, once again, they refuse SOUND DOCTRINE and have given over their ears to be scratched by doctrines of demons.

 

Who wants to suffer persecution or rejection?  Who wants to be stabbed in the back and lied about?  Who wants to be tortured for talking about Christ or thrown into

prison under false charges?

 

Those things really do not sound appealing.  So.....OF COURSE people prefer to be told they should be rich and healed and live in big houses and drive fancy cars

and have a fat bank account and dress well and have bling up one side and down the other.

 

Do I personally want to suffer the things Christ or Paul or others suffered for the gospel?  No I certainly don't.  Yet, God is the keeper of my record and He purifies us

where we are...He has many ways to do this and pain is pain irregardless.  It is most often our sin that paves the way for chastening.

 

Yet, none of that exists in the halls of WOF doctrine.  It's all pie in the sky and we are gods.  Nah. Y'all are just a bunch of lumps of clay like the rest of us.

[Sevenseas]

 

Now, with that being said, some ministries ARE a crock and there are hucksters looking to make a living on preaching the Gospel, and you shall know them by their fruits. Some ministries are better ground than others for sowing seeds. But the Holy Spirit can lead you to know where you should be sowing, so that you DO reap your harvests.

 

Let the stones fly.

 

Who stones others?  Certainly not anyone who follows Christ.  Jesus puts His hand over ours and says  Put it down my child.  That is not the way.  I have forgiven you...you must also forgive.

 

Yeah, I can actually see that as He looks right into my eyes and I understand it.  No one is throwing stones.  I do reject error and false teaching and I do so in the Name of Christ.

[TheCurseOfTheRodain]

 

 

 

We are not supposed to make idols and superstars out of human beings.  I would hope that the Body of Christ would have seen enough of the fall of these 'super' Christians caught in sin of all kinds, to stop idolizing so many of them.

 

 

If anyone "idolizes" Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer, Jesse Duplantis, Jerry Savelle, Keith Moore, Creflo Dollar, Bill Winston, Joseph Prince, John Hagee, etc then are fools to do so.

BUT, PAUL said "Follow ME, as I follow Christ." From what you think, it sure sounds like a "super-Christiany" thing to say doesn't it? And he also corrected those who said, "I follow Apollos, or I follow Peter, or I follow Paul." because it was creating divisions in the Church with those silly attitudes. But he DID say to follow HIM, and that is what people are saying, they're saying, WOW, I see Kenneth/Keith/Joseph/Jesse/Jerry/etc preaching this stuff and getting results in their OWN lives and the lives of those they are ministering the Word to - boy, I'd really like to do that too! Praise God for the faith walks of these preachers so that I can be taught how to do the same and get the same results! Hallelujah!

 

When Paul said "follow me as I follow Christ"  he was asking them to emulate him in terms of character.  The word in the original is "imitate."    The results those people, is because they have people collectively donating millions of dollars and spending millions more on their books and CDs/DVDs.  I suppose I could talk about faith if I had the benefit of celebrity status that allows me to draw people in and get them to send me millions and milions of dollars.  That's isn't faith. 

 

We're both saying the same thing: I said follow, you said imitate. Paul says to do what he's doing, either way. The point of my message stands, because you are following the example of those, who through faith AND patience inherit the promiseS (plural) as spoken in Hebrews.

 

You have to follow this out logically. If people were NOT getting harvests from seeds (by the way the Biblical example is that YOU do the sowing and YOU do the reaping, but the increase comes from the Lord (that's the only thing that's automatic in Jesus' example, so people missing their harvests is not on anyone but sower, just like in the natural; a farmer doesn't blame God if his harvest sits out there in the field and he doesn't reap it (the harvest doesn't jump into his barns); you ask the Holy Spirit to lead you into your harvest and show you how to reap it, and you are to know what you've sown and what you've believed for on the harvest so that you know when you've gotten it all) THEN these ministries would die out quickly as shams.

Yet that is not what you find, you hear thousands upon thousands of testimonies of people who have followed what they are being taught from the Bible and they DO reap. I and my wife are NOT in ministry and are not selling millions of CDs and such, and yet we are prospering as we have been learning to sow and reap according what the Holy Spirit has led us to do. Gal 6:6-7 Do not be deceived, God is NOT mocked, for whatsoever a man sows, THAT shall HE reap.

 

So, we're following the examples. Just to give you one example: Kenneth Copeland BEFORE he was of any reputation had the modern day equivalent of over $700,000 of debt wiped out by sowing and reaping in just 11 months! That is astounding! Impossible, but doable. This was before he had any real ministry - it would have been in his first year of attending ORU. He didn't sell anything to get that, he sowed and reaped.

 

Most people who "leave" the Word of Faith churches typically think that God's Kingdom is a formula, you plug in a and add b then you get c. And it never works that way.( You stand on the promises and laws in the Word, in faith, at the direction of the Holy Spirit and do what He says as He says and stay in faith, keeping what you've taken in faith with your patience, daily staying in faith, not speaking crosswise of what you've received by faith.)

SO, they get mad, naturally, because they don't understand how it didn't work, and instead of being willing to understand and seek God for the answers, they stay mad and go into a numbe state of resignation and quit using their faith and rail against those who do or encourage others to do so.