Can every Believer be rich/blessed/favored/speak-in-tongues/be healed?

[Guest ninhao]

Yet, even so, look at all the miracles and things that were being done in spite of that. Notice they were not perfect, but yet, their words are Scripture and they got results and were teachable and received correction. They didn't pipe off at Paul and say who do you think you are?...

Anyway, I am sure someone is getting something good out of this, as you have pointed out.

 

 

Mat 7:20-23  Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.  (21)  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.  (22)  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?  (23)  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

 

Rodain your inability to respond to the challenges to your teachings have served to reinforce the knowledge that the prosperity gospel is false. This is good.

 

I'll ask again if you can demonstrate where Jesus or any of His disciples displayed an opulent lifestyle.  I won't be holding my breath

[Sevenseas]

 

7seas, you seem to be sincere in your zealous pursuit of the destruction of Word of Faith, but it is misdirected. I don't know what happened with you and someone who said they were Word of Faith, but clearly it has affected you.

 

If any person follows a so-called doctrine, especially at the expense of the Word,he/she is not doing what Jesus said. He said "Follow Me." that is our command. That is what I do daily and nightly. I do not follow a doctrine. If I had one, it would be "Believe the Word, not man's experiences or opinions." So, to recap, I follow the Bible. What I learn from Word of Faith preachers I check in the Word and I apply it in my life and get results by the favor of God. The main thing is I am teachable. I told God at the beginning I wanted Him to lead me into all the Truth and that I would be always teachable for Him. Being teachable has opened the door for everything.

 

If a preacher making a mistake is all it takes to disqualify everything they say, then I guess we should get rid of all the disciples that were present when Paul had to rebuke Peter for trampling on the finished work of the Cross that Jesus secured for us. That would be a lot of Scripture we'd have to get rid of, because these guys said and did a lot that was in contradiction to what Jesus did for us and God used Paul to set them straight.

Yet, even so, look at all the miracles and things that were being done in spite of that. Notice they were not perfect, but yet, their words are Scripture and they got results and were teachable and received correction. They didn't pipe off at Paul and say who do you think you are?...

Anyway, I am sure someone is getting something good out of this, as you have pointed out.

 

 

LOL!  I'm not trying to destroy anything.  If I wanted to destroy it, I would get on my knees and pray because only God can deal with it as I believe there is a spirit behind the teaching

that is not Holy in the least.   I cannot spend my days fasting and praying for the demise of all things evil.  God uses these things to sift and we know that He will separate the

wheat from the tares anyway...that is not my job.  As God knows the heart and I am not the judge of people's hearts, I can only trust that you are sincere...but sincerely wrong as well.

 

At any rate, I'm not capable of taking down such a huge empire...I might be making a teeny dent though.

 

I do try to help one on one though...or small groups.  Plenty of hurting people who want to know why God has let them down.  Why the name it and claim it gospel didn't work for them.

Some of these people need deliverance from evil spirits who have gained entrance into their lives because of false teachings that border on blasphemy in some cases.  (such as

you are a god and you are made out of the same 'material' as God) And don't confuse what I just stated with possession because I do believe Christians can be possessed but

they certainly can and are harassed and afflicted by demonic entities.  That reminds me, some WOF teachers teach that the devil cannot operate against a Christian...completely

ignoring the fact that we are told we wrestle against spirits and we need to put on the spiritual armor.

 

We are not talking about a few mistakes here...we are talking about the vile twisting of the truth of the Word and the false prophecies that are spewed out from many WOF ministries

that illustrate that they are NOT actually hearing from the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit does not lie, He is not confused and He does not teach doctrines of demons, so we know

these things exist.  The only doctrines that fit the bill are those that do not line up to the Word.  We won't even get into the extra-Biblical teachings that are not found...the twisting

of the word would be enough or should be enough to wake people up to the fact that WOF is false.

 

Don't worry about sins (because mistakes are often sin, not mistakes...blasphemy is not a mistake, false prophecy is not a mistake, claims of healings that are false are not mistakes,

denying the truth is not a mistake...these are sins...oh and raking in the money and spending it on yourself is also a sin....the workman is worthy of his hire, but some of these

false prophets live like millionaires..oh wait...they ARE millionaires...but they did not come by it honestly.  

 

The thing is, if we confess our sins, God will forgive our sins.  That, is why Jesus died.  So, what you say here:

 

If a preacher making a mistake is all it takes to disqualify everything they say, then I guess we should get rid of all the disciples that were present when Paul had to rebuke Peter for trampling on the finished work of the Cross that Jesus secured for us.

 

actually seems to leave out the fact that God forgives the worst sinner!  

 

I don't know anyone who became perfect the moment they accepted Christ or the moment they were baptized, or spoke in tongues, or practiced a spiritual gift.  So, why should we think the

BIble would portray perfect people?  We both know the Bible does not hide the blemishes or sins of people...nothing has changed.  The miracle, is that God can take these sinful lives

and change them to honor Him.

 

The entire point is that GOD does these things...we apply ourselves, but our changed desires and the desire to please God comes about through accepting Christ...not our own efforts.

 

Any real miracle comes about the same way.  We take God's glory when we brag about our ministries or other thing that is the work of the Spirit of God.

 

I'm not keen on miracles...remember the Israelites?  Have any people ever had more miracles done on their behalf and yet they turned to the golden calf in spite of them.  It's not different

today.  The only thing that really sticks, is the Word in our hearts...a changed heart and nature through the indwelling Holy Spirit who instructs according to the Word...He does not deviate

from that...he is not here to glorify Himself.  It is my opinion that most WOF ministers...especially the famous ones...basically glorify themselves.

 

And I will add that your statement regarding following doctrine shows you many not understand what doctrine is, so I have included Shiloh's comment on that because it addresses that

 

Yes you do follow a doctrine.  You evidently don't understand the nature of doctrine.  The word, "doctrine" means "teaching."  You follow teachings, so you follow doctrine. It is false doctrine, but doctrine nonetheless.   Your view that God is here to serve you is a doctrine.  The notion that you are a little god is a doctrine.  The prosperity gospel is a doctrine.   They are all heresies from hell, but they are doctrines by definition.

 

 

[Sevenseas]

Shiloh:

 

 

 He is also disqualifed because none of his public propheicies ever came to pass.  Benny Hinn is smart.  He knows that he can make a sensational prophecy about God destroying the homosexual community with fire, for example, but make the propecy 5 to ten years down the road and never mention it again.   In doing so, he gives himself some wiggle room and in ten years, hopefully no one will remember.  He wil have them distracted on to something else.  That is not a mistake.

 

 

yeah...I read that one ...I think yesterday....Mr Hinn may not be made to own up to his false prophecies in the moment...but he will have to answer for them one day...he purports to be the mouthpiece

of God and yet God did not say the things that Mr Hinn does 

 

There is an OT passage (well more than one) that describes God's hatred for those who say they speak for Him and yet He never called them or told them what to say

 

The further one goes down this dark dark path, the harder it is to reconcile with the truth and ask God for forgiveness

[Guest]

 

I still have that question that you haven't answered, Rodain. It's a post 145. The question was:

 

 

 

"Would you still love Jesus if you lost everything?"

 

 

 

That means all the toys are gone. No job, home, car, etc. You're on the street, the sun's going down and you're sitting on the corner watching everyone else heading home at the end of the day -- and you have nowhere to go. Sounds like a pretty ugly situation, doesn't it? It was -- because I lived it, and all I had that day was Jesus.

 

 

Hi Walla2009,

 

I don't think you've been my reading my posts very carefully. In at least 2 of them I informed all that I was once HOMELESS. That means I didn't have A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G. When I fell in love with Jesus it took a little while before I got ANYTHING. When I grew up I actually had a lot, then my Jesus-less life of stupidity and sin I became homeless for a while. But God gave me places to stay until He got things fixed in my life and started bringing me up. I love Jesus more today than I ever have, and I have remembered the Lord my God as I have come into my Promised Land - things have not and will not change me, I stay focused on Jesus DAILY.

 

A simple yes, or no would have sufficed. I'm sorry, but it really is that simple.

 

I will clarify something also. I should have asked it the right way the first time: If you lost everything today, would you still love Jesus?

 

On the rest: Shiloh and the others here have done a very good job of trying to show you the error of WOF doctrine and they are better writers than I. I don't need WOF doctrine and I reject it as false -- no amount of testimony or scripture twisting will convince me otherwise.

[TheCurseOfTheRodain]

I don't know where you got that I follow Benny Hinn (I do not defend any sin either by the way), that's something that 7seas has tried to say, but if you look at my posts, I never made that claim. And if I do sound like Kenneth I take that as a compliment. I follow the Bible, and if Copeland's teachings do not work or are not the Truth, then by definition I could not in the name of Jesus have received/done all these things. None of them bring glory to the devil, but they all bring glory to Jesus and the Father Who sent Him. And by definition if these things are not the Truth then they would not work, but as you can see from my testimony, they have worked. So, if you don't believe the works, I don't know what to tell you

[TheCurseOfTheRodain]

Yes, Walla, if that were the case, which it will not be, but I would just start over again. Just as I am sure any real follower of Jesus would. Stuff is made to be enjoyed just as food is made to be eaten, but Jesus is the only real satisfaction.

[TheCurseOfTheRodain]

Finally, with respect to doctrine, I know what it is, my context was I do not follow and live or die by Word of Faith doctrine or Baptist doctrine or Methodist doctrine, etc, the POINT was that the only doctrine I accept and live by is the Bible Himself. *yes I said Himself on purpose*

[Guest ninhao]

 And by definition if these things are not the Truth then they would not work, but as you can see from my testimony, they have worked. So, if you don't believe the works, I don't know what to tell you

 

There are many evil rich people in this world Rodain and many non believers who follow the same principles you ascribe to. Napolean Hill's Think and Grow rich, Rhonda Byrnes The Secret etc are secular forms of your doctrine.

 

So basically your testimony of wealth isn't necessarily evidence for Christ and because your doctrine is blatantly false it will be better assessed as anti Christ.

[Guest shiloh357]

I don't know where you got that I follow Benny Hinn (I do not defend any sin either by the way), that's something that 7seas has tried to say, but if you look at my posts, I never made that claim. And if I do sound like Kenneth I take that as a compliment. I follow the Bible, and if Copeland's teachings do not work or are not the Truth, then by definition I could not in the name of Jesus have received/done all these things. None of them bring glory to the devil, but they all bring glory to Jesus and the Father Who sent Him. And by definition if these things are not the Truth then they would not work, but as you can see from my testimony, they have worked. So, if you don't believe the works, I don't know what to tell you

  No, no...   you're missing the point.   I am not saying they don't work. I am working from Kenneth Copeland's statement that they work for sinners just like Christians.   According to Copeland, sinners who practice sowing and reaping will get the same results as believers.  

 

The result is that one doesn't need to be in covenant with God to prosper according to God's principles.  I have read Copeland and it is strange that many Christians who follow him can't seem to make that connection.   Sowing and reaping is considered by Copeland to be a universal principle that anyone can appropriate, sinner or saint.  

 

So all of this stuff about having a covenant that brings prosperity is really empty because sinners can ge the same things without a covenant.  They get it all from God. It is a major theological quagmire.

 

I don't know where you got that I follow Benny Hinn (I do not defend any sin either by the way), that's something that 7seas has tried to say, but if you look at my posts, I never made that claim.

 

Again, missing the point.  The point was being made to NeedingYouLord that  Benny Hinn's adultery is overlooked and/or lied about by those in the Word of Faith Movement.   Instead of demanding accountability, they tried to cover it over and hide it.    People like you may not defend, it but silence is the same as saying its okay.  There were many who did not defend Hitler's madness, but they remained silent and silence is equivalent to giving one's approval.   Silent disapproval and silent approval have the exact same results.

 

 None of them bring glory to the devil, but they all bring glory to Jesus and the Father Who sent Him.

 

They don't glorify God by claiming that God serves them

They don't glorify God by breathing out false prophecies

They don't grorify God by claiming that even sinners can prosper using sowing and reaping

They don't glorify God by claiming tobe little gods (which is a heresy).

They don't glorify God by making false prophecies and calling out a curse on anyone who criticizes them

They don't glorify God by committing adultery  and then trying to hide it and lie about it.

 

Their ministries are false ministries and their teachings are the doctrines of devils.  They are false prophets and they may be leading many straight into hell.

[Guest shiloh357]

Finally, with respect to doctrine, I know what it is, my context was I do not follow and live or die by Word of Faith doctrine or Baptist doctrine or Methodist doctrine, etc, the POINT was that the only doctrine I accept and live by is the Bible Himself. *yes I said Himself on purpose*

Baloney.  Your beliefs are shaped by the teachings of men, not the Bible.  Don't try to blame cultic teaching on the pure Word of God.