Biblical support of Eternal Hellfire?

[Guest shiloh357]

 

Donfish06 what do you make of this?

 

I have showed multiple accounts in the scriptures where "for ever" does not mean eternity. Jonah used it when he referenced his time in the belly of the whale (Jon 2:6)  Hannah used it in reference of however long Samuel lives (1 Sam 1:22) "for ever" means for ages. For ever and ever means for ages and ages. 

 

Ever:

G165

αἰών

aiōn

ahee-ohn'

From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.

 

It is used in reference to everlasting life as well. Everlasting is not eternal, either. Everlasting can be never ending, but it too can be "lasting for an age", while eternal means no beginning and no end. If you have eternal life, then you had to have always had it, because it never begins. You can however gain everlasting life, and never die, but you had to GAIN it.

 

So my point is that the only reason people believe in "eternal hell" is because of the terms "for ever" and "everlasting", which don't mean eternal.

 

Some other scriptures that use "for ever" or "everlasting" as a period of time: Deu 23:3, Ex 21:6, Gen 17:8, Lev 16:34

 

The problem is that you are confusing word meaning with word usage.  Word usage trumps word meaning.  That is why context is so important.  Greek and Hebrew are far more nuanced than English and as a result the same word can be used in a variety of ways. 

 

Everlasting life is not different in Greek than eternal life.   The same Greek word is translated both ways.  More up to date translations correctly translate John 3:16 as referencing eternal life.  Trying to parse between the meaning of eternal vs. everlasting is simply futile.   There is no difference where the Greek is concerned. 

 

Jesus referenced eternal life and eternal punishment in Matt. 25:46 and He used the same word "eternal" in the Greek to describe both (aionos).   So if we are going to make eternal life to be truly without end, we cannot be inconsistent in our treatment of that word where eternal punishment is concerned.   There is a clear comparison being made in the grammatical construction where eternal, unending bliss is set against its opposite which eternal unending punishment.  That means that to internally consistent, unless the context dictates otherwise, eternal means perpetual and unending.

 

And to one other point you made...  For me to have eternal life doesn't mean that I personally had to be eternal, having no beginning or ending.   The word eternal isn't describing the one who receives it from God.  "Eternal" describes the nature of the life itself which is being received.

[GoldenEagle]

Question (and maybe I missed it) for those who claim there is no eternal punishment do some people get saved after dying? Or do they simply cease to exist... Or what do you believe then and where is this found in Scripture?

[donfish06]

Question (and maybe I missed it) for those who claim there is no eternal punishment do some people get saved after dying? Or do they simply cease to exist... Or what do you believe then and where is this found in Scripture?

 

I believe at some point they will cease to exist. I believe hell is very real, but it was also created. Nothing created can be eternal, as eternity is outside of time. There is no beginning to anything in eternity, it always was. By that alone hell cannot be eternal.

 

I don't know if people will burn or 100, 1000, or 1000000 years in hell before it is destroyed, but Eze 18:4 and 20 say that a soul that sins shall die. I personally find it ridiculous that everybody tries to make die mean not die. A dead soul cannot be tormented forever. I see a common thing in your questions on my threads is to ask questions that I have already addressed earlier lol. I have a lot more already typed that shows why I think the souls in hell will be destroyed at some point.

[Guest shiloh357]

I believe at some point they will cease to exist. I believe hell is very real, but it was also created. Nothing created can be eternal, as eternity is outside of time. There is no beginning to anything in eternity, it always was. By that alone hell cannot be eternal.

 

We are created and yet will live in eternity outside of time.  The notion that eternity has no beginning or end only applies to God  He is the only entity in the universe that has no causality.  There was a time when not even the angels existed and they will exist outside of time.

 

Secondly, the new heavens and new earth refer to renovated version of what we have now.  The topography of our earth will be completely made over, but the earth itelf and the heavens will continue to exist outside of time in the eternal future. 

 

I personally find it ridiculous that everybody tries to make die mean not die.

 

That isn't what we are saying.  We are saying that the Bible defines spiritual death as separation from God.   Look at Adam.  He died the minute he ate the fruit but he continued to live.   He was separated from God because of sin.   Spiritual death is not presented as a ceasing to exist.

 

You are trying to debate the issue by making your definition of terms the working definitions for the conversation and the problem is that your definitions are not based on scripture but are based on what your view demands certain words mean.   Your position can't be defended biblically so you are forced to redefine key biblical terms and that is a very inadequate way to handle the Bible.

 

I bet you would have a real problem with someone who treated your words the way you treat God's words in Scripture.

[donfish06]

 

I believe at some point they will cease to exist. I believe hell is very real, but it was also created. Nothing created can be eternal, as eternity is outside of time. There is no beginning to anything in eternity, it always was. By that alone hell cannot be eternal.

 

We are created and yet will live in eternity outside of time.  The notion that eternity has no beginning or end only applies to God  He is the only entity in the universe that has no causality.  There was a time when not even the angels existed and they will exist outside of time.

 

Secondly, the new heavens and new earth refer to renovated version of what we have now.  The topography of our earth will be completely made over, but the earth itelf and the heavens will continue to exist outside of time in the eternal future. 

 

I personally find it ridiculous that everybody tries to make die mean not die.

 

That isn't what we are saying.  We are saying that the Bible defines spiritual death as separation from God.   Look at Adam.  He died the minute he ate the fruit but he continued to live.   He was separated from God because of sin.   Spiritual death is not presented as a ceasing to exist.

 

You are trying to debate the issue by making your definition of terms the working definitions for the conversation and the problem is that your definitions are not based on scripture but are based on what your view demands certain words mean.   Your position can't be defended biblically so you are forced to redefine key biblical terms and that is a very inadequate way to handle the Bible.

 

I bet you would have a real problem with someone who treated your words the way you treat God's words in Scripture.

 

When you tell a lie long enough, people start to believe it. Then when somebody comes with the truth no one will believe it, because they have believed a lie for so long. Do you think that over 2000 years Satan wouldn't do anything to try to get people to believe the wrong things about the scriptures? 

 

Show me where the mass majority has had the correct understanding in scripture. I don't think it has ever been so. So why would everybody think that the "common understanding" would be the right one now? Do you believe Satan has just laid down these last 2k yrs? If anything he is fighting HARDER.

 

I have not made "my own" definition I have used numerous scriptures to support my claim

[Guest shiloh357]

When you tell a lie long enough, people start to believe it. Then when somebody comes with the truth no one will believe it, because they have believed a lie for so long. Do you think that over 2000 years Satan wouldn't do anything to try to get people to believe the wrong things about the scriptures? 

 

Yep, which explains why we have Christians who claim they are little gods.  Satan has been telling man that he is divine and that he is god for thousands of years.  I guess if you tell the lie for thousands of years, they will believe it.

 

Show me where the mass majority has had the correct understanding in scripture. I don't think it has ever been so. So why would everybody think that the "common understanding" would be the right one now?

 

 

Who said anything about the common understanding?   I am not appealing to what everyone else believes.  I am operating off of what the Bible clearly says.  I don't have to work as hard as you do, trying to string verses together to make the Bible say what I want it to say.  I am just trying to explain what the text says. 

 

Even the minority can be wrong.  Just ask the people who followed after David Koresh and Jim Jones.

 

Do you believe Satan has just laid down these last 2k yrs? If anything he is fighting HARDER.

 

I have not made "my own" definition I have used numerous scriptures to support my claim

 

You are trying to limit the meaning of "death" to cessation of existence.  That is the problem.  You have  one-dimensional approach to death because that is what you need in order to make your position work.  

 

Just because you can use the Bible to make your case doesn't mean you are using the Bible correctly.  Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses use the Bible too.  Just because you are using the Bible doesn't make what you are saying true or Scriptural.

[donfish06]

You are trying to limit the meaning of "death" to cessation of existence.  That is the problem.  You have  one-dimensional approach to death because that is what you need in order to make your position work.  

 

 

 

Just because you can use the Bible to make your case doesn't mean you are using the Bible correctly.  Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses use the Bible too.  Just because you are using the Bible doesn't make what you are saying true or Scriptural.

 

You seem to infer that I am just making things up as I go

[Guest shiloh357]

 

You are trying to limit the meaning of "death" to cessation of existence.  That is the problem.  You have  one-dimensional approach to death because that is what you need in order to make your position work.  

 

 

 

Just because you can use the Bible to make your case doesn't mean you are using the Bible correctly.  Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses use the Bible too.  Just because you are using the Bible doesn't make what you are saying true or Scriptural.

 

You seem to infer that I am just making things up as I go

 

No, I am saying that your exegesis is not based on sound interpretative principles.

[donfish06]

No, I am saying that your exegesis is not based on sound interpretative principles.

 

What you consider sound interpretative principles, you mean.

[enoob57]

Question (and maybe I missed it) for those who claim there is no eternal punishment do some people get saved after dying? Or do they simply cease to exist... Or what do you believe then and where is this found in Scripture?

 

I believe at some point they will cease to exist. I believe hell is very real, but it was also created. Nothing created can be eternal, as eternity is outside of time. There is no beginning to anything in eternity, it always was. By that alone hell cannot be eternal.

 

I don't know if people will burn or 100, 1000, or 1000000 years in hell before it is destroyed, but Eze 18:4 and 20 say that a soul that sins shall die. I personally find it ridiculous that everybody tries to make die mean not die. A dead soul cannot be tormented forever. I see a common thing in your questions on my threads is to ask questions that I have already addressed earlier lol. I have a lot more already typed that shows why I think the souls in hell will be destroyed at some point.

If you are swayed by Scripture then you surely understand that death as you see cessation of existence

is not so as this verse indicates

Rev 20:10

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone

where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and

night forever and ever.

NKJV

Notice the duration of the lake of fire is constant forever! That it is torment specific!

Rev 20:13-14

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up

the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

NKJV

Love, Steven