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Butch5

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Butch5 last won the day on August 19 2015

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About Butch5

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  1. Actually, both sides of this argument use the Scriptures out of context. Neither view is what the Bible teaches.
  2. In the beginning man had access to the Tree of Life. This is how one lives forever. Man is not in and of himself immortal and will never be. He will always be reliant on the Father for life. Paul tells us that God gives, (present tense) life to all things. In Job we read that if God was to retrieve his breath all flesh would die. Jesus said in the Revelation He gave to John that He would give to eat of the Tree of life to those who overcome. Eternal life is to live forever. However, to do so one must have access to the Tree of Life.
  3. I believe it's better translated "glassy sea" The Greek word that is translated "glassy" is an adjective not a noun. Glassy it describing the sea. If you think about a sea that looks like glass it is perfectly still, no waves or ripples. It's complete smooth. A glassy sea mixed with fire is a figure of speech. What the it means must be determined from the context. In this context those who get victory over the beast are standing on this glassy sea. 2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. (Rev. 15:2 KJV) Fire usually represents judgment or purifying. In this context of the wrath of God being poured out and it seems that the metaphor would be that these who have gotten the victory are experiencing clam in the midst of the God's judgement being poured out around them.
  4. The word predestination simply means to predetermine something. The Reformers tied this word to salvation and people have been arguing it ever since. The Scriptures use the word predestination to speak of God's dealing with Israel, not whether Joe has or have not been chosen to be saved.
  5. I reject all five points of Calvinism and think that Arminius has several things wrong also.
  6. I got an email where you asked me to explain my post above. NOw it seems the post isn't here. Did you delete it or would you still like the explanation? on my cell phone my responses often seem abrupt, so I deleted it and then didn't re-ask. But if you want to, go right ahead. If you follow his argument from chapter 2 where he begins to address the Jewish believers in the Church he argues that one is justified by faith and not the works of the Law. He points out the Abraham was justified by faith and not the Law. In chapter 9 he explains the promises that were made to the fathers, particularly Abraham. He goes on to explain how they are fulfilled in a portion of the Jews and not all of the Jews. His point is that the calling and gifts of God, those things He promised, will come to fruition. The calling and gifts he is referring to are those in the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham
  7. I got an email where you asked me to explain my post above. NOw it seems the post isn't here. Did you delete it or would you still like the explanation?
  8. If you follow Paul's argument I don't think this is what he has in mind. I think the context shows that Paul has very specific things in mind.
  9. HI Pamela, If you follow Paul's argument from chapter 2 He's been arguing that not all of those who are physical Jews are considered the descendants of Abraham. In Genesis God made some promises to Abraham. He promised that He would make Abraham, the father of a great nation, the father o many nations, that through his seed all nations would be blessed, and that the land he saw would be given to him as a lasting inheritance. In Romans 2-11 Paul explains how all of this took place. He goes into detail in chapter 9 about how the promises to Abraham were fulfilled. This section constitutes the calling and gifts.
  10. Butch5

    Salvation

    John 3:16 is a true statement, however, it is not the only statement on the subject. In order to know the truth one must look at every passage on the subject and come to a conclusion that harmonizes all of the passages. You mentioned loving God with all your heart. How do you define love? Jesus said, 'if you love me keep my commands'. So obedience is love. If you obey God you love God.
  11. Hi bcbsr, I have defined the works, they are the works of the Law. You can't just redefine what Paul said. In Romans 3 he specially says, 'no one is justified by the works of the Law'. You can't change that to mean anything a person does.Others do that also and that is why the have to say that James is talking about something else. He's not. James and Paul are talking about the very same justification. Paul argues that Abraham was justified apart from the Mosaic Law and James argues that he was justified by works, which was obeying God. The reason so many are confused is because they redefine the works that Paul is speaking of. In Ephesians 2 he states specifically that the Gentles were not saved by works and goes on to explain why and he says it was because Christ abolished the Law. The works that Paul is addressing aren't the 10 commandments. He is addressing the matrimonial works of the Law, things like ritual washings and circumcision. Are you familiar with the historical setting in which Paul is writings? Are you familiar with the Judaizers? The Judaizers were Jews from the church in Jerusalem who were going behind Paul telling his converts that in addition to faith in Christ they also needed to observe the Mosaic Law. We can see this in Acts 15. And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. (Acts 15:1 KJV) These Judaizers were a bi problem for Paul and his ministry. There were even groups in the Jerusalem church that thought the Gentiles should keep the Law. And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. 3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. 4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. 5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. (Acts 15:1-5 KJV) It was being circumcised and keeping the ordinances of the Mosaic Law that Paul was arguing against. These were the works that he said would not save. The Judaizers were telling the Gentiles that if they didn't get circumcised and keep the ordinances of the Law they could not be saved and Paul argued with them that those works were not necessary. We see that same thing in Galatians. 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. 11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. 13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. 19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. (Gal. 1:6-19 KJV) Here Paul says to the Galatians that there are some who are troubling them and would pervert the Gospel of Christ. It should be obvious that he is speaking of the Jews as he says he used to be a Jew. He surpassed them in the Jewish religion and yet he gave it all up for Christ. That should be proof enough to the Galatians that the Judaizers are wrong. Paul was one of the most learned of his day. If he gave up keeping the ordinances of the Law then obviously it wasn't necessary. This was such an issue that the Holy Spirit told Paul to go to Jerusalem to settle the issue. Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain. (Gal. 2:1-2 KJV) Remember Acts 15 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. (Acts 15:1-2 KJV) Paul, Barnabas, and Titus went up to Jerusalem to meet with the other apostles to settle the issue of whether or not the Gentiles needed to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. Read Acts 15, the chapter is about the this meeting. After discussing it they came to a conclusion. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. 22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. 30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle: (Acts 15:19-30 KJV) James acknowledges that there were those who had gone out of the Jerusalem church teaching that the Gentiles must be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses and he says that they had reached the decision among themselves with the Holy Spirit that it was not necessary for the Gentiles to be circumcised and keep the Mosaic Law Even as Paul explains to the Galatians, when they went to Jerusalem, Titus who was part Greek was not circumcised, again proving that circumcision was not necessary. Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain. 3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: (Gal. 2:1-3 KJV) He tells them that he went to Jerusalem to the other apostles and they didn't make Titus get circumcised, thus proving that circumcision was not necessary. Regarding Abraham in Rom. 4, Paul is writing of the Mosaic Law. What he says about Abraham is the conclusion to the argument in chapter 3. He starts chapter 4 with, "What shall we say then". In other words what shall we say based on what I've just said? The argument he made was that a man was justified by faith and not the works of the Law. He conclusion about Abraham is directly connected to the argument. Regarding Romans 2, Paul states that those who continue is "well doing" are seeking eternal life. He didn't say the works of the Law, there is a difference. The argument in chapter three is specifically about keeping the Law. Paul states that clearly. Notice Paul's words to the Colossians . 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: (Col. 2:11-16 KJV) Notice Paul says that Christ blotted out the "handwriting of ordinances". It's the ordinances of the Mosaic Law, Christ did that, those are the works that don't save. He said the same thing in Ephesians. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. (Eph. 2:8-17 KJV) The Gentiles who were far off were brought near by Christ's blood and His abolishing "the Law of commandments contained in ordinances." It's the ordinances of the Mosaic Law, things like circumcision and washing and the like. You see, when acknowledge that Paul is addressing this issue of the Mosaic Law, all of the difficulties that many Christians have simply fade away. Everything fits nicely together. Paul and James reconcile nicely without any difficulties at all. It's when we redefine Paul's words to mean something other than the works of the Mosaic Law that we created these difficulties.
  12. You said that James was not an apostle. According to Paul he was, 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. 19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. 20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not. 21 Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia; (Gal. 1:18-21 KJV)
  13. And Beloved Jude (I Believe) Received Enoch's Preaching And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. Jude 1:14-16 Jude quoted the book of Enoch as if it were scripture, and yet the book of Enoch is not recognized as scripture. So what does that say of Jude? Jude is simply a rewriting of 2Peter chapter 2, but using quotes from extra-scriptural sources as if they were scripture, which calls Jude into question. Furthermore Jude was not an apostle, and his being the brother of Jesus holds no weight. For even Jesus said, "who is my brother, mother, sister", and this when his family (like Jude and James, and even Mary) came to take him away saying he was out of his mind (Mark 3:21) Jude may or may not be quoting the book of Enoch. It's also possible that both are quoting a third source. We simply don't know.
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