Tough Questions

[Sola Scriptora]

I appreciate what your point was botz, but unfortunately, I cannot comply with rejecting rationality to exercise faith (the will to believe without evidence

A few questions Frog:

Think of a building you have seen and admired. Have you seen the builder of that building? What evidence is there that there was a builder, esp if you never saw him?

Do you have a brain? (I'm not trying to be funny or insulting, please believe me, I have a point. I just need you to answer)

God bless you all in Jesus precious Name

[Slippery Slope]

1. Why does God allow charlatans to use His name to extract money, sex, attention and even their very lives from devout believers, who truly, honestly believe that they are listening to the word of God?

I have read the explainations given here, none of them address the harm that these Charlatans create. Take for instance those who send money they really can't afford to give up. They go hungry or eat things that they shouldn't (like cat food etc.) they lose the ability to buy the medications they need to have a quality existance or to actually stay alive, they give up money they need to give their families quality care, they lose their homes...

I live in NC and I see a LOT of poor people. I also see a LOT of big beautiful churches with manicured lawns and musical directors with big salaries and they have big catered picnics and they employ Ministers/preachers/reverends/pastors et.al.  who drive nice cars, wear nice clothes, live in nice homes and have a life style BETTER than many of their flock... In fact, the area of NC where I live (Western NC) has more churches than any other building besides single family homes. That's right, more Churches than gas stations, grocery stores... more "men of god" than Doctors or (would you believe) Lawyers! What is your definition of a "charlatan"?

2. If God knows the future and the past with perfect certainty, why did He create me knowing that my fate is to burn forever in Hell?

I have a hard time with the answer of "free will". But the bible is chock full of examples of god intervening and with mans "free will". I find that free will is used as a convenient excuse that actaully goes against the nature of and dealings of the god of the OT and a smidgeon of the NT.

3. Of the millions of species of insects, arachnids, and other bugs on earth, did Noah actually collect two (or perhaps seven?) of each, and how did they survive for 10 months when some of them have a lifespan measured in hours?

You will notice a lot of varying answers here, all either speculation or mystical. You'd think that the word of god would be a bit more clear so as to not be so speculative. As for the Mystical... it's the easiest way out. You see back when that story was created the known world was very small to the story-tellers and the creatures known were small in number as well. As our knowledge of the world expanded the Mystical aspect emerged to account for the sheer absurd nature of the story. It's much more credible to admit that the story is parable and not a factual account.

4. (For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.) Genesis 3:5

How were Adam and Eve supposed to distinguish between good and evil acts if they didn't understand the concepts until they ate the fruit?

Another Parable.

Someone questioned you about why you would go to an Atheist site. They would warn you against it out of the fear that you are not intelligent enough to make your own mind up about things you read and hear and or out of fear that your faith or gods word is not strong enough to keep you from "straying".

If indeed you believe you are the creation of god, in his image, then you must believe that god has endowed you with the ability to use logic and reason and come to your own conclusions about your belief system. A wise man said you can't know good without knowing evil. Sitting here at this forum gives you a singlular view of the world and we all know the world is round. 

Thanks for your help!

warm regards

-bud

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-SS

[UndecidedFrog]

Dear Sola Scriptora,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

Thank you for your questions.

Think of a building you have seen and admired. Have you seen the builder of that building? What evidence is there that there was a builder, esp if you never saw him?

I have seen and admired the WTC as it was being built. I have never met the builder. There is objective validatable evidence that there was a builder, there are contracts between owner and architect and builder that can be reviewed. There are interviews that have been recorded with the various builders, workmen, architects, etc. There are birth certificates that provide evidence that any particular person involved with the building of the WTC was born. I could go on and on, but I think you get my drift.

Do you have a brain? (I'm not trying to be funny or insulting, please believe me, I have a point. I just need you to answer)

Yes, I do have a brain. I have seen it (and various cross sections of it) on my MRI scans.

Regards,

UndecidedFrog

[apothanein kerdos]

Keep in mind Frog, even top atheist are beginning to acknowledge that the human body and the universe that surrounds it is too complext to have happened by mere chance. While none of them are converting to Christianity, to act like there isn't enough proof out there is to prove you haven't looked at all the proof.

[UndecidedFrog]

Dear SuperJew,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

Thanks for your response.

Keep in mind Frog, even top atheist are beginning to acknowledge that the human body and the universe that surrounds it is too complext to have happened by mere chance. While none of them are converting to Christianity, to act like there isn't enough proof out there is to prove you haven't looked at all the proof.

I have never claimed to have looked at all the proof. All I have claimed is that I have not been presented with any objective validatable evidence for the existence of any deity.

The argument that parallels....the universe is so complex, the human body is so complex, we do not understand most of it....so god musta done it, doesn't wash with me. This sort of thinking harkens back to history when humans attributed everything unknown to the actions of god/s. Forgive me for not thinking that way.

Regards,

UndecidedFrog

[Matthitjah]

Slope,

That was me that asked him if he was led there or had gone on his own.

See Slope you speak of things you know not.

This latest post of yours is yet another effort to deny the very Word of God. That is your choice. Even so you do have Free will. God Bless you. What do you expect to find here? Since our view is so singular? What do you hope to accomplish here? Are you really seeking Truth?

I would refer you to Jude 1 especially;

Jude

[nebula]

I agree that faith is a misunderstood word.  To me, the word under a religious context is the will to believe without evidence. 

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Faith is a belief lacking in evidence or proof. If one had faith, one believes in something more than one should given the evidence. . . .

No faith involved, no belief without evidence - just belief strictly proportioned to the evidence.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It seems to me, from your responses, that your understanding of "faith" is indeed different from our understanding.

SA - tell me, how many scientific discoveries would not have been found had someone not believed there was something that no one else believed was possible?

What I am seeing, Frog and SA, what you do not understand is why we believe in Jesus.

Evidence doesn't have to be found in the form of what you can put under a microscope, touch, feel, examine, whatever. Evidence can be a changed life, a better attitude, peace in the midst of turmoil, joy amidst sorrow, comfort amidst pain, experiencing a presence so profound you are either laughing or crying or falling to your knee or just feeling like nothing else in the world matters for no reason whatsoever, . . . .

Granted, from the outside, you would argue what these experiences or changes were, but that is not the issue here. The issue is that we do have reason to believe that goes beyine just wanting to. We do have have "evidence" to maintain our beliefs. It may not be the evidence you are looking for, but it is the evidence each of us are satisfied with.

I know this because I've been through times where I wanted to give up on the whole Christianity thing; I struggled for days over this decision. But I kept coming back to the same point - Jesus had made Himself real to me, and nothing I could experience in life could ever compete with or compare to my experience(s) with Him. Nor could I explain these times as having been anything other than that - not what I've been through.

So, this is why I believe.

[Botz]

Hi Frog. Seasonal Greetings to you and your family.

I just spent an hour writing a reply and pressed the wrong button and "skadoofy" it all vanished before my eyes...so here goes again.

You wrote...

There is no evidence that there is life after death. Hence I have a lack of belief in any afterlife. You may consider this as having a faith that there is no afterlife if you want to play semantics, and claim that I cannot provide evidence that there isn't any afterlife.

However, consider this: One does not need to disprove something that has not been proven in the first place.

The rational position is the one I choose. Do not believe in anything until provided evidence for it.

Many would disagree and say there is a weath of evidence...as Nebula says there are all sorts of evidence but you are trying to make the square peg of faith fit into the round hole of your rationality..it is a bit like trying to paint a wednesday and however hard you try it will not happen.

As the Apostle Paul says...if what we are preaching is some cunningly wrought religious story to brainwash the unsuspecting and draw them into our ranks and the reality is that Jesus was just another deluded religious man who never died for us or rose from the dead..then we should be greatly pitied.

1Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

Yes, I do see that many different cultures/peoples believe in some supernatural deity/deities. I also see that these deities are very different from each other, and yet share similar characteristics. I do not ignore anything that smacks of religion. On the contrary, any thing that smacks of religion interests me very much. The pattern I see that is common to all religious beliefs is that the people attribute things they cannot readily explain to the will of their deity/deities. I think this is a very human characteristic. However, I have come to learn that some humans do not share this in similar quantities. I think those who have a higher quantity of what I term rationality lack the other human characteristic of attributing unknowns to some deity/deities.

The fact is that there are many highly rational Scientifically minded people who also have come to believe in G-d and have a certain hope of the ressurection...this would seem to fly in the face of what you are saying eg...the more rational a person the less they will be likely to make the highly irrational leap of faith...it does not compute...Believers in Messiah come from every walk of life at every level.

Perhaps those with the greatest handicap are those who trust in the riches of this life...be that money,power,position or some other personal god.

I am only a half an hours drive from Brighton...and was born in the conurbation of Hove.

[UndecidedFrog]

Dear botz,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

Thanks for your response.

Many would disagree and say there is a weath of evidence...as Nebula says there are all sorts of evidence but you are trying to make the square peg of faith fit into the round hole of your rationality..it is a bit like trying to paint a wednesday and however hard you try it will not happen.

Perhaps I am not meant to accept the square peg of faith. I am who I am, even if I am a round hole.

The evidence that will convince me is the type that can be verified objectively and validated. Nebula has presented the evidence of changed lives due to belief. However, I cannot attribute the changed lives as caused by the effect of belief. There are many cases of changed lives without belief. What could cause that? We could do an experiment and put together a group of derelicts and then randomly separate them into 3 groups. Group 1 will be the control group where no intervention is done. Group 2 will be the group that will be preached to with the intention of converting them into christianity. Group 3 will receive "humanistic" intervention and taught life skills and undergo behaviour therapy. We will, of course have to isolate all participants, then measure how positively each groups' lives have changed over time.

The fact is that there are many highly rational Scientifically minded people who also have come to believe in G-d and have a certain hope of the ressurection...this would seem to fly in the face of what you are saying eg...the more rational a person the less they will be likely to make the highly irrational leap of faith...it does not compute...Believers in Messiah come from every walk of life at every level.

I do not deny that there are many scientist that have faith in some god (all different ones, including christianity). I have never claimed that all scientists are rational, nor all rational people are scientists. People tend to believe differently under different circumstances. What I have learned is that people are indeed inconsistent. This is no surprise.

Perhaps those with the greatest handicap are those who trust in the riches of this life...be that money,power,position or some other personal god.

I would not know this. I can only speak for myself, in that I do not trust riches of life. I know very well that money, power, position are all temporary things, and tools to be used for specific goals. Atheists like me do not worship tools, or any other god/s.

P.S. Sorry about your "skadoofy" experience. Perhaps your god did not like your first post?

Happy holidays to you and your family.

Regards,

UndecidedFrog

[nebula]

The evidence that will convince me is the type that can be verified objectively and validated.  Nebula has presented the evidence of changed lives due to belief.  However, I cannot attribute the changed lives as caused by the effect of belief.  UndecidedFrog

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Frog -

You misread me.

I didn't say my life changed due to belief, I said I believe because my life was changed.

There's a big difference there.