The Gospel for a Gay Friend

[EnochBethany]

 

 

When a government outlaws wicked & abusive behavior & punishes the behavior, that is no persecution.

 

 

 

Do you think this same rational should be applied to adultery?  Or sex outside of marriage?

 

It was not so long ago that both adultery & fornication were outlawed.  There used to be persons charged with those crimes, even in the 20th century.  While we are not under the Law of Moses, I think it gives good directions for a just society. 

[EnochBethany]

 

IMHO:

I don't mean to insinuate that the poster of the topic meant to advance the sodomist agenda.  But I do call attention to the importance of the vocabulary we use.  The sodomist wants to use a certain vocabulary to advance his ends (gay & homophobe).  The vocabulary is important in the cultural war.  As to "homosexual," that is another confusing term, which should be avoided.  One should not oppose the idea that some men prefer the company of their own sex -- that is not an issue.  To keep the issue in proper focus requires Biblical terms.  The issue regarding men is "men lying with men" and behavior typical of the city of Sodom. 

 

 

To call them gay is a misnomer.

 

 

A couple of problems:  First off, simply because the homosexual community uses terms with the calculating goal of furthering a certain agenda, that does mean that everyone who uses those words is doing the same thing.  That is a false dichotomy.  On a forum such as this, when we use the term "gay" everyone understands that this term, for us, refers to two people, of the same sex, involved in a physical, i.e. sexual relationship.  Keeping the issue in proper "focus" does not require the strict use of biblical terms.  You don't get the option of determining what terms we have to use in a discussion and no Christian that I know of uses biblical terms exclusively when discussing any subject.  That makes no sense.  Not to mention that the repeated use of the term sodomy, sodomite or sodomist makes you appear to be a backwards hick.

 

We are not talking about "men preferring the company of their own sex."  Who knows what that means and the statement makes no sense in it's current form in relation to this discussion.  Sex between people of the same sex, whether they are men or women, is a sin in every single case.  Whether one uses the terms, "gay," "homosexual," or "same-sex" the assumption, from a biblical standpoint is that the root action of this relationship is sex. 

 

Well, Cobalt; if my post helps you, it helps you; if it doesn't, it doesn't.  Just take it as IMHO, which of course is fallible.  You can put it in your pipe & smoke it; take the residue & chew it; then spit it out as you wish!

[EnochBethany]

 

 

 

Humans are not capable of not committing sin.  So, what are the criteria for giving yourself to Christ but still sinning?  Anyone here who says a gay person should not get into the kingdom needs to cast the first stone – there is but one judge, he was sinless, and he is judging you as well…

 

We are not saying that.  God says that.  Everyone sins.  But there is a huge difference between making a mistake in judgement or a momentary weakness and in living a life of willful, habitual sin.  When people say that a person can be "gay" and still be "Christian," then they totally remove repentance from Christianity.  They discard it completely, meaning that you could now repetitively commit anything God calls a sin until the day you die with complete impunity, and more to the point, without repenting and turning away from it.

 

Homosexuality is a sin.  There is no credible debate, from a biblical standpoint, that it is not a sin, because the Bible states very clearly that it is a sin in both the Old and New Testament.  It doesn't have to repeat that it is a sin in every chapter of every book for those statements that it is a sin to have validity.  The expectation when one becomes a Christian is always that gross repetitive and willful sin will cease.  If one is committing a sin such as homosexuality or adultery over and over and over again, and saying it is perfectly acceptable to do so, they are not repentant, and they are not sorry for the sin. 

 

My bro, "homosexuality" is not a sin.  Neither does the Bible use such language.  Probably you & I don't disagree on the substance, but the vocabulary.  "Homosexual" confuses the issue.  Psychologists might call boys at a certain age homosexual, because they prefer to play with boys instead of with girls.  Preference of company is not the issue.  Loving (agape) persons of the same sex, is not the issue.  The proper terms are "men lying with men" and Sodomite.  If you describe precisely the abominable practice, you will probably find yourself censored here.  But it is by describing precisely what is done that the abomination appears.

 

Fornication comes in many varieties, and it is a sin characteristic of heading to the Lake of Fire.

 

It doesn't matter what you call it.   Homosexuality is a sin.

 

Well Bro, I thought I was laying an egg to proclaim the folly of the wrong vocabulary -- but apparently my suggestion is not popularly received.  So it is nothing to cackle over.   It is just IMHO. 

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Cobalt!

      I read an interesting piece this morning that I thought you might like(I did not post it in its entirety but I included the Authors name)

 

“Are homosexual sins worse than other sins?”
By Randy Alcorn

Recently when I posted an article from Tony Reinke about homosexuality and idolatry on my blog, I received a thoughtful question from a reader asking if homosexuality is a “worse” sin than others in God’s view. Here’s my answer.

The point isn’t that homosexual sin is worse than other sins, but that it’s a result of and related to idolatry.

Romans 1:22-27 says:

22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Ezekiel 16:48-50 is a passage that is widely used now to defend the position that God doesn’t hate homosexuality. Those who cite it to defend this position say that Sodom was destroyed not because of homosexual sin, but rather because they were proud and didn’t care for the poor.

As I live, declares the Lord God, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it. (Ezekiel 16:48-50)

Ezekiel is not saying God didn’t hate the homosexual lust in the Genesis account (see Jude 7 below), but rather that the sin of Israel “whoring after other gods” was worse than the sins of Sodom. (Ezekiel 16 pictures Israel as a young woman who God protected and provided for but then she turned away from his love to seek other lovers more brazenly than a prostitute.)

Sodom was “haughty and did an abomination” (the abomination likely includes homosexual actions) before the Lord, but Israel’s sin was far greater because it included the rejection of the covenant they made with God in the days of Moses, specifically that they would not have any gods before him (Exodus 24:7, Jeremiah 11:10, Hosea 6:7).

This act of Israel, we are told, is beyond the sin of Sodom. Sodom wasn’t in a covenant relationship with God; so no matter how despicable their actions were, it would be impossible for them to commit the same sin of Israel. Thankfully, despite Israel’s rejection, God remained faithful to his promises and fulfilled them in Jesus.

You are not your own1 Corinthians 6:18-20 explicitly says there is something different about sexual sin—ALL sexual sin—not just homosexual acts:

18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. 19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies

    In my opinion I believe sin is sin ,as the Word of God says if you break the least of my commandments ,you have broken them all.....all sin is detestable in the eyes of God & to Him be the Glory that all are forgivable when placed under the Blood of our Lord & Savior,Christ Jesus              Worthy is the Lamb of God!                                  With love-in Christ,Kwik

[EnochBethany]

 

 

It was not so long ago that both adultery & fornication were outlawed.  There used to be persons charged with those crimes, even in the 20th century.  While we are not under the Law of Moses, I think it gives good directions for a just society. 

 

 

 

I am aware of that.  And those laws served as absolutely no deterrent to the behavior itself.  The thing that kept both homosexuality and adultery from mushrooming out of control was societal pressure because both were frowned upon.  But they both happened behind closed doors anyway.  The only way to stop sexual sin is a transformation of one's heart through Christ.  Time in jail won't fix it.

 

Are homosexuality and adultery equally bad, sin-wise, or is one worse than the other?

 

Thou sayest:  "those laws served as absolutely no deterrent to the behavior itself."

 

Now that is a great suggestion, Cobalt, although we have no way to know how much of a deterrent it was or wasn't by historical observation.  We don't have stats on ancient Israelite behavior.  But it seems obvious that the Law of Moses (altho a great Law), was largely ignored by the people and rulers during much of Israel's history.  I suppose that when the Lord kicked Israel out of the land, then behavior in the land was impeded.

 

But the Law is kind of like a sign that one posts saying, "Don't spit here." You know what the result will be.  I had a cranky little English teacher who had a little plaque on her wall saying like, "If you don't have anything to do, don't do it here."  Someone put a wad of chewing gum in the center of her plaque.  It may have taken her a year to notice it.

 

Romans 7 says, "I was alive apart from the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived & I died.'

 

7   What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Howbeit, I had not known sin, except through  the law: for I had not known  coveting, except the law had said,  Thou shalt not  covet:  8 but sin, finding occasion, wrought in me through the commandment all manner of  coveting: for apart from  the law sin is dead.  9 And I was alive apart from  the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died;  10 and the commandment, which was unto life, this I found to be unto death:  11 for sin, finding occasion, through the commandment beguiled me, and through it slew me.  12 So that the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and righteous, and good.  13 Did then that which is good become death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might be shown to be sin, by working death to me through that which is good; — that through the commandment sin might become exceeding sinful.

 

Thou sayest, "The thing that kept both homosexuality and adultery from mushrooming out of control was societal pressure because both were frowned upon.  But they both happened behind closed doors anyway.  The only way to stop sexual sin is a transformation of one's heart through Christ.  Time in jail won't fix it."

 

Well, do you have some evidence that in ancient Israel those sins did not mushroom?  But you are right that societal pressure can have more effect that a law written.  But many laws are made by courts.  Those judicial laws IMHO have been very influential, the Zeitgeist following them

 

I don't know what relevance "behind closed doors" has.  I believe, for example, that when Jodi Arias killed her partner, it was behind closed doors; which did not impede the police from pursuing her.

 

Transformation of the heart is of course the key to godly behavior (Eph 3:14-19; Rom 12:1-2; 1 Cor 3:18).  But even tho a Christian receives a transformation, he still sins a lot, as the transformation comes & goes.

 

"Time in jail won't fix it."

 

Has it ever occurred to you that the Law of Moses has no prisons?  Prison is not a punishment in the Law of Moses.  The closest to it is city-confinement for man slaughter.  What prison does is punish the tax payer, who has to provide free room, board, entertainment, and medical care for the imprisoned.

 

Now if a criminal is executed, that does impede his performance of a crime -- he never does it again!  And if a criminal is publicly whipped, that brings in societal pressure, a public humiliation.  Under the law the limit was 40 stripes. 

 

Why are you concerned about ranking the various sins?  At the top of the list is failure to love God & neighbor as self.  I don't think we understand any sin right until we see where it fits into those overriding commandments.

 

Simple fornication between an unmarried pair under the Law of Moses resulted in forced marriage only, so far as I know.   But fornication (a very general term for sexual sin) is listed with such serious sins as indicate one is heading for the Lake of Fire.  Adultery could get you stoned; though repentance & forgiveness were possible, as in the case of David.  Leviticus 18 groups men lying with men among the heinous crimes which cause a the land (as it were) to vomit out a nation. Leviticus 18 does not call it "homosexuality," a term invented methinks around mid 19th century.    Sodom was destroyed with fire & brimstone as an example lesson to the world. 

[EnochBethany]

 

The vocabulary used by proponents of this movement includes propagandistic rhetoric.

 

 

We all have problems.  But Christians, despite any problems, have this special ability to love neighbor as self.

The topic of this thread is  not me & you -- it is the topic.

Let's leave out the ad hominems and accusations.

 

I suggest you review my comments; eat the fish & spit out any bones.

 

 

There were no ad hominems, and side tracking or back-peddling won't work with me .  You said some things in a very loud, clear voice.  Now you seem to want to distance yourself from them. Just because the gay community uses certain words to further their agenda does not mean that those words mean the same thing to me.  That does not mean that my use of those words furthers their agenda.  It does not mean that I am restricted in the terminology I can use in a discussion.  It does not mean that I am "pro-sin." You said all these things, and you said them very clearly.  And they are all false.  Anyone here who has known me for a long time could easily tell you that I am decidedly anti-gay just as I am anti any sexual sin.

 

Anyone who cares can review the discussion & see your untrue ad hominem attacks on me.  My thesis is that if Christians fall into the trap of using certain rhetoric, that rhetoric itself unintentionally helps the sinful cause -- not that persons who use that rhetoric want to advance the sinful cause.  Thus I recommend not using the term "gay" in the discussion.  Evidently you & others disagree with me. 

[jerryR34]

 

 

Humans are not capable of not committing sin.  So, what are the criteria for giving yourself to Christ but still sinning?  Anyone here who says a gay person should not get into the kingdom needs to cast the first stone – there is but one judge, he was sinless, and he is judging you as well…

 

We are not saying that.  God says that.  Everyone sins.  But there is a huge difference between making a mistake in judgement or a momentary weakness and in living a life of willful, habitual sin.  When people say that a person can be "gay" and still be "Christian," then they totally remove repentance from Christianity.  They discard it completely, meaning that you could now repetitively commit anything God calls a sin until the day you die with complete impunity, and more to the point, without repenting and turning away from it.

 

Homosexuality is a sin.  There is no credible debate, from a biblical standpoint, that it is not a sin, because the Bible states very clearly that it is a sin in both the Old and New Testament.  It doesn't have to repeat that it is a sin in every chapter of every book for those statements that it is a sin to have validity.  The expectation when one becomes a Christian is always that gross repetitive and willful sin will cease.  If one is committing a sin such as homosexuality or adultery over and over and over again, and saying it is perfectly acceptable to do so, they are not repentant, and they are not sorry for the sin. 

 

My bro, "homosexuality" is not a sin.  Neither does the Bible use such language.  Probably you & I don't disagree on the substance, but the vocabulary.  "Homosexual" confuses the issue.  Psychologists might call boys at a certain age homosexual, because they prefer to play with boys instead of with girls.  Preference of company is not the issue.  Loving (agape) persons of the same sex, is not the issue.  The proper terms are "men lying with men" and Sodomite.  If you describe precisely the abominable practice, you will probably find yourself censored here.  But it is by describing precisely what is done that the abomination appears.

 

Fornication comes in many varieties, and it is a sin characteristic of heading to the Lake of Fire.

 

Fornicators are unmarried.  What if the two men or two women are married...then, no fornication.

[EnochBethany]

 

 

 

Humans are not capable of not committing sin.  So, what are the criteria for giving yourself to Christ but still sinning?  Anyone here who says a gay person should not get into the kingdom needs to cast the first stone – there is but one judge, he was sinless, and he is judging you as well…

 

We are not saying that.  God says that.  Everyone sins.  But there is a huge difference between making a mistake in judgement or a momentary weakness and in living a life of willful, habitual sin.  When people say that a person can be "gay" and still be "Christian," then they totally remove repentance from Christianity.  They discard it completely, meaning that you could now repetitively commit anything God calls a sin until the day you die with complete impunity, and more to the point, without repenting and turning away from it.

 

Homosexuality is a sin.  There is no credible debate, from a biblical standpoint, that it is not a sin, because the Bible states very clearly that it is a sin in both the Old and New Testament.  It doesn't have to repeat that it is a sin in every chapter of every book for those statements that it is a sin to have validity.  The expectation when one becomes a Christian is always that gross repetitive and willful sin will cease.  If one is committing a sin such as homosexuality or adultery over and over and over again, and saying it is perfectly acceptable to do so, they are not repentant, and they are not sorry for the sin. 

 

My bro, "homosexuality" is not a sin.  Neither does the Bible use such language.  Probably you & I don't disagree on the substance, but the vocabulary.  "Homosexual" confuses the issue.  Psychologists might call boys at a certain age homosexual, because they prefer to play with boys instead of with girls.  Preference of company is not the issue.  Loving (agape) persons of the same sex, is not the issue.  The proper terms are "men lying with men" and Sodomite.  If you describe precisely the abominable practice, you will probably find yourself censored here.  But it is by describing precisely what is done that the abomination appears.

 

Fornication comes in many varieties, and it is a sin characteristic of heading to the Lake of Fire.

 

Fornicators are unmarried.  What if the two men or two women are married...then, no fornication.

 

I will grant you that in English we normally think of fornication as between unmarried persons (if are not politically correct & call it being sexually active).  But the NT word, porneia, is general, including all sorts of sexual sins.  Adultery (a more specific term) is referred to by porneia, for example.  Do you have access to BDAG, the standard NT Gk Lexicon?

[jerryR34]

 

 

 

 

Humans are not capable of not committing sin.  So, what are the criteria for giving yourself to Christ but still sinning?  Anyone here who says a gay person should not get into the kingdom needs to cast the first stone – there is but one judge, he was sinless, and he is judging you as well…

 

We are not saying that.  God says that.  Everyone sins.  But there is a huge difference between making a mistake in judgement or a momentary weakness and in living a life of willful, habitual sin.  When people say that a person can be "gay" and still be "Christian," then they totally remove repentance from Christianity.  They discard it completely, meaning that you could now repetitively commit anything God calls a sin until the day you die with complete impunity, and more to the point, without repenting and turning away from it.

 

Homosexuality is a sin.  There is no credible debate, from a biblical standpoint, that it is not a sin, because the Bible states very clearly that it is a sin in both the Old and New Testament.  It doesn't have to repeat that it is a sin in every chapter of every book for those statements that it is a sin to have validity.  The expectation when one becomes a Christian is always that gross repetitive and willful sin will cease.  If one is committing a sin such as homosexuality or adultery over and over and over again, and saying it is perfectly acceptable to do so, they are not repentant, and they are not sorry for the sin. 

 

My bro, "homosexuality" is not a sin.  Neither does the Bible use such language.  Probably you & I don't disagree on the substance, but the vocabulary.  "Homosexual" confuses the issue.  Psychologists might call boys at a certain age homosexual, because they prefer to play with boys instead of with girls.  Preference of company is not the issue.  Loving (agape) persons of the same sex, is not the issue.  The proper terms are "men lying with men" and Sodomite.  If you describe precisely the abominable practice, you will probably find yourself censored here.  But it is by describing precisely what is done that the abomination appears.

 

Fornication comes in many varieties, and it is a sin characteristic of heading to the Lake of Fire.

 

Fornicators are unmarried.  What if the two men or two women are married...then, no fornication.

 

I will grant you that in English we normally think of fornication as between unmarried persons (if are not politically correct & call it being sexually active).  But the NT word, porneia, is general, including all sorts of sexual sins.  Adultery (a more specific term) is referred to by porneia, for example.  Do you have access to BDAG, the standard NT Gk Lexicon?

 

Does God expect us to speak Greek?  I don't think so.  I've heard many times that pornography comes from the same base as used for "porneia".  Frankly, when people start putting empashis on the Greek and Hebrew words of the bible, they beg a lot of questions about translation errors, transcription errors, etc. and frankly call into question the whole bible.  It's a very slippery slope.

[EnochBethany]

Cobalt saith, "Your post, in it's current form, does not make much sense.  And few people take the time to read long rambling posts filled with pseudo Victorian English."

 

What was pseudo-Victorian English?  You seem to have time to give to my posts. 

 

  "Don't know why you are bringing Mosaic Law into the discussion when the church has never been under Mosaic Law."

 

I already said the the Ch is not under the Law of Moses.  And the world is not the Church. 

The entrance of God's Word gives light.  Thus I take it that the Law of Moses was a practical civil law for a nation, & the provisions of it are worth considering for a guide to a practical law for a nation.

 

 "And we are talking about here-and-now society, not ancient Israel"

 

Yes, and we can take that into consideration as we compare our system with that of Moses.  But all scripture [including Moses] is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for  instruction which is in righteousness"

 

"You are focusing on one sexual sin, i.e. homosexuality, while refusing to discuss the other two."

 

1) What leads you to think that I ever called "homosexuality" a sin?

2) Your claim that I focus on one sin, is simply false, as anyone can see by reading my posts.

 

I posted such info as I have & which I thought profitable for the readers here, on adultery, fornication, and sodomy.  It is here for anyone to read.  I don't know of any passage that ranks adultery vs sodomy on the sin scale.  Do you?