Who is this woman

[Izzel]

 

What time frame is this 12th chapter ?

 

2000 years ago ?

or

Is it all future ?

 

If its all future who is the man child ?

Who is the remnant that are born from her also sometime later ? (I can't seeing it being Mary other children)

 

 

Good question, but I believe the time-frame is mentioned in verse 5 and 6

And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

 

Jesus is the man-child, after Jesus resurrection, Israel fled into the wilderness (into the nations). There Israel will find a place of protection for the 3.5 tribulation years during which the church will be persecuted. So it covers 2000 plus years.

 

The remnant are us believers who are the offspring of Israel (adopted sons of Abraham)

Romans 4:16

Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

 

It is not 1260 days 

[Guest DRS81]

What time frame is this 12th chapter ?

 

2000 years ago ?

or

Is it all future ?

 

If its all future who is the man child ?

Who is the remnant that are born from her also sometime later ? (I can't seeing it being Mary other children)

 

It's complicated regarding past/future. The man child is Jesus, and the remnant is all born again christians.

Revelation 12 is split into three sections: http://www.easyenglish.info/bible-commentary/revelation-lbw.htm

When you see past or future that's me typing it into commentary...

 

1) Israel and Satan Revelation 12:1-6

Verses 1-2 The events that follow the seventh (7th) *trumpet include the 7 last troubles. These are in chapters 15 and 16. In chapters 12 to 14, John wrote about events that happen before those troubles. (FUTURE)

John saw a great sign in the sky. In other words, he saw a series of strange pictures. And these pictures had a meaning.

The action was in the sky and on the earth. It was not in heaven where God lives. John saw a woman who was ready to give birth to a son. (PAST) John described her in a strange way. He wrote that her dress was the sun. The moon was beneath her feet. She wore a crown. And there were 12 stars in her crown.

Joseph had a dream (Genesis 37:9-11) (PAST). In that dream, he saw the sun, the moon and 11 stars. The sun meant Jacob who was also called *Israel. The moon meant Jacob’s wife. The stars meant Joseph’s brothers. The 12 *tribes of *Israel came from Joseph and his brothers. So, the woman whom John saw meant the nation called *Israel. (PAST)

The woman cried out because of the pains of birth. The Christ would be born into the nation called *Israel. (PAST)

Verse 3 The next sign that John saw was a great red *dragon. The *dragon had 7 heads and 10 *horns. Each head had a crown on it. This is a description of the last great world government. (FUTURE) It will be a *kingdom that unites 10 separate *kingdoms (Daniel 7:7-8; Daniel 7:24). At the same time, the *dragon means someone in particular. The person who gives power to that *kingdom is *Satan. So, the great red *dragon means *Satan.

Verse 4 John saw the tail of the *dragon sweep the sky. A third of the stars seemed to fall out of the sky. These stars seem to mean *angels. When *Satan became God’s enemy, many *angels supported *Satan. These evil *angels had to leave heaven. (PAST)

The *dragon waited to kill the child as soon as it was born. When Jesus was born, Herod tried to kill him. This *dragon also failed. (PAST)

Verse 5 The baby boy was born to the woman. That boy was Jesus. He was born to Mary who belonged to the nation called *Israel. But the woman whom John saw was not Mary. The woman in John’s *prophecy meant the *Jews who believed in the *Lord. (PAST)

The *Lord Jesus Christ will rule on earth as the king over all the nations. He will be a strong ruler. All people will have to obey him. He will be strict with any who do not obey him. (FUTURE)

God sent Jesus with his parents to Egypt. So, Herod failed to kill him. Later Jesus died but God raised him from death. Then, after Jesus rose from death, he went up in a cloud into heaven. He went up to God and to his *throne. (PAST)

The evil plan of *Satan failed. Jesus defeated *Satan. And Jesus went up to God’s *throne in heaven. (PAST)

Verse 6 During the last three and a half years, *Satan will try to kill all the *Jews. But God will protect those *Jews who believe in him. He has prepared for them a place of safety. (FUTURE)

 

2) War in heaven Revelation 12:7-12

Verses 7-8 There was a war in heaven. *Satan (the *dragon) and his *angels were on the one side. Michael and his *angels were on the other side. (PAST)

*Satan used to be an *angel. He had tried to be equal with God. But *Satan failed and so he had to leave heaven. He took with him those *angels who had supported him. But, *Satan was still able to go in and out of heaven. So, this event is his final battle in heaven. (PAST)

Michael is one of the chief *angels of God. Michael fought against *Satan and defeated him. *Satan and his forces failed in the fight. They could not stay in heaven and they had to leave. (PAST)

Verse 9 The *dragon means *Satan. He is the devil. He was also the snake that caused people to *sin (Genesis 3:1-7).

Michael threw *Satan and his *angels out of heaven. He threw them down to the earth. (PAST)

Verse 10 John saw *Satan and his *angels fall from heaven. Then John heard a loud voice in heaven. The voice said that now God would rescue his people. God will use his power and his *kingdom will come. Jesus Christ will soon rule the earth. He will rule on this earth for a thousand years (chapter 20). (PAST/FUTURE)

Now *Satan could not go to God in heaven. From the start, he had been there day and night. (PAST/FUTURE)

All the time he accused God’s people of *sin. But now the *Lord threw him out of heaven. (PAST/FUTURE)

Verse 11 The defeat of *Satan was not merely the work of *angels. Jesus died and he rose again from death. This is how Jesus defeated *Satan.

Those who believed in Jesus Christ overcame *Satan. The blood of the *Lamb had removed all their *sins. So, *Satan had no reason to continue to accuse them. They spoke the truth about God and *Satan had no answer to it. They were willing to die if necessary and they were not afraid of death.

Those who believe in Jesus Christ share in his success. What Jesus achieved, he did for God’s people. This is the defeat of *Satan.

Verse 12 The war in heaven has ended. *Satan has failed. The *Lord has sent *Satan away. Those who live in heaven can be happy.

The *Lord threw the devil down onto the earth. The devil will know that his end is near. He will have a short time when he will continue to work on the earth. He will be angry, fierce and cruel. During this short time, it will be terrible for those who live on the earth. (FUTURE)

This short time means the same three and a half years as in verse 6. At the end of that time, Christ will arrest *Satan. Chains will bind *Satan and he will remain in the great hole for a thousand (1000) years. (FUTURE)

 

3) War on the earth Revelation 12:13-18

Verse 13 The *dragon could not kill the child. God threw the *dragon (*Satan) out of heaven. So, the *dragon turned his attention to the woman. He tried to kill her. (PAST)

The woman means the true *Jews. They are the *Jews who trust in God. *Satan will oppose them. But God will protect them.

Verse 14 God gave to the woman a pair of wings. They were like the wings of a great *eagle. The *eagle is a very powerful bird. With these wings, the woman escaped from the *dragon.

The *Lord had prepared a place for the woman. It was in the desert. She flew there and she was safe. The *Lord protected her for three and a half years. The *dragon had just three and a half years before Christ would arrest him. The woman was safe for the whole of that period. (FUTURE)

This means that the *Lord protects his own people. So, the *Lord will protect until the end the *Jews who trust in him.

The *dragon tried to reach the woman. But he was not able to hurt her. (FUTURE)

Verses 15-16 As the woman flew to the desert, the *dragon opened his mouth. He sent a great flood of water after her. If the water had reached her, she would have drowned. But the earth opened up and it swallowed the water. So, the water could not reach the woman. She was safe from the flood. (?)

The devil will pour out all his evil deeds against the *Jews. He will do all that he can to kill all of them. But God will not allow him to succeed. God has promised to rescue his people (called *Israel) in the last days. And God will do the things that he promised to do. God will save *Israel. (FUTURE)

Verse 17 The *dragon was angry because he could not reach the woman. So, he went to fight her other children. (?)

Christ came from the *Jews. He, the Son of God, was by birth a *Jew. Those who believed in him did not become *Jews. The children of the woman were both *Jews and those who were not *Jews.

The *dragon could not hurt the *Jews. So, he attacked God’s people who were not *Jews.

God’s people will suffer terrible problems for those three and a half years. Those who believe in Jesus will suffer much. Many of them will die because they believe in Jesus. It will be a terrible time. (FUTURE)

[ARGOSY]

 

 

 

I edited my post above, to add a fourth point. Us believers are the woman's additional offspring, this speaks to me of the woman representing the 12 tribes of Israel, giving birth to Jesus, and Christianity being birthed from this act of bringing forth Jesus to the world. This concept is confirmed in Romans 11 where us Christians are grafted into Israel because of our faith, and so we too are the offspring of Israel.

 

Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Was only Israel the nation  persecuted for the 42 months ?

 

 

Not at all, in the future I believe Israel will be protected for 42 months, not persecuted.  

 

Who are the two witnesses ? Are they future or past ?

 

 

I believe they are the church of Judah in Jerusalem and the church of Israel in Jerusalem, during the future great tribulation.   These two groups will preach the gospel openly for 3.5 years because they fall under Israel's protection, and so are protected from the persecution of the Gentile church during the great tribulation period.

 

Candlesticks represent churches:

Rev 1:20 the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches

 

Olive tree represents ethnic Israel:

Romans 11: And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

 

 

Ethnic Israel is made up of two parts that will unite in the last days:

Jeremiah 50:4

In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together, going and weeping: they shall go, and seek the Lord their Go

 

Ezekiel 37:19

Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

What time frame is this 12th chapter ?

 

2000 years ago ?

or

Is it all future ?

 

If its all future who is the man child ?

Who is the remnant that are born from her also sometime later ? (I can't seeing it being Mary other children)

 

 

Good question, but I believe the time-frame is mentioned in verse 5 and 6

And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

 

Jesus is the man-child, after Jesus resurrection, Israel fled into the wilderness (into the nations). There Israel will find a place of protection for the 3.5 tribulation years during which the church will be persecuted. So it covers 2000 plus years.

 

The remnant are us believers who are the offspring of Israel (adopted sons of Abraham)

Romans 4:16

Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

 

It is not 1260 days 

 

What isn't 1260 days?  Are you referring to Rev 12 which mentions 1260 days and saying it shouldn't be interpreted as literal days? If so why not literal days?

[Izzel]

 

 

 

 

I edited my post above, to add a fourth point. Us believers are the woman's additional offspring, this speaks to me of the woman representing the 12 tribes of Israel, giving birth to Jesus, and Christianity being birthed from this act of bringing forth Jesus to the world. This concept is confirmed in Romans 11 where us Christians are grafted into Israel because of our faith, and so we too are the offspring of Israel.

 

Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Was only Israel the nation  persecuted for the 42 months ?

 

 

Not at all, in the future I believe Israel will be protected for 42 months, not persecuted.  

 

Who are the two witnesses ? Are they future or past ?

 

 

I believe they are the church of Judah in Jerusalem and the church of Israel in Jerusalem, during the future great tribulation.   These two groups will preach the gospel openly for 3.5 years because they fall under Israel's protection, and so are protected from the persecution of the Gentile church during the great tribulation period.

 

Candlesticks represent churches:

Rev 1:20 the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches

 

Olive tree represents ethnic Israel:

Romans 11: And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

 

 

Ethnic Israel is made up of two parts that will unite in the last days:

Jeremiah 50:4

In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together, going and weeping: they shall go, and seek the Lord their Go

 

Ezekiel 37:19

Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

 

 the TWO OLIVE trees, which ARE the TWO WITNESSES are in fact two GROUPS of people rather than just two individual people 

 

The TWO GROUPS of people who are the ONLY TWO WITNESSES in all the earth who stand for the only true and wise God ARE number 1, the true believers in Christ Jesus the Son of God, otherwise know as Christians or formally known as the WILD OLIVE TREE; and number 2, the other witnessstanding before the one true God is ISRAEL, which is the NATURAL OLIVE TREE.

So you see we have TWO different GROUPS of people who stand for the God of the earth, and it is these TWO GROUPS who are the TWO WITNESSES spoke of in the book of Revelation.

We can see these TWO GROUPS, the Jews, who believe in Almighty God the Father, and the Christians, those who believe in Jesus, the Son of God as their savior all through the book of Revelation as well as the rest of the word of God.

[ARGOSY]

 

 the TWO OLIVE trees, which ARE the TWO WITNESSES are in fact two GROUPS of people rather than just two individual people 

 

 

The TWO GROUPS of people who are the ONLY TWO WITNESSES in all the earth who stand for the only true and wise God ARE number 1, the true believers in Christ Jesus the Son of God, otherwise know as Christians or formally known as the WILD OLIVE TREE; and number 2, the other witnessstanding before the one true God is ISRAEL, which is the NATURAL OLIVE TREE.

So you see we have TWO different GROUPS of people who stand for the God of the earth, and it is these TWO GROUPS who are the TWO WITNESSES spoke of in the book of Revelation.

We can see these TWO GROUPS, the Jews, who believe in Almighty God the Father, and the Christians, those who believe in Jesus, the Son of God as their savior all through the book of Revelation as well as the rest of the word of God.

 

I did say that they are two groups of people. I believe both groups of people are of ethnic Israel because these witnesses are protected for 3.5 years, the same period that the woman (Israel) is protected. these two groups of people cannot represent the entire church because they are specifically based in Jerusalem. 

 

And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Edited January 30, 2014 by ARGOSY

[Izzel]

 

 

 

What time frame is this 12th chapter ?

 

2000 years ago ?

or

Is it all future ?

 

If its all future who is the man child ?

Who is the remnant that are born from her also sometime later ? (I can't seeing it being Mary other children)

 

 

Good question, but I believe the time-frame is mentioned in verse 5 and 6

And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

 

Jesus is the man-child, after Jesus resurrection, Israel fled into the wilderness (into the nations). There Israel will find a place of protection for the 3.5 tribulation years during which the church will be persecuted. So it covers 2000 plus years.

 

The remnant are us believers who are the offspring of Israel (adopted sons of Abraham)

Romans 4:16

Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

 

It is not 1260 days 

 

What isn't 1260 days?  Are you referring to Rev 12 which mentions 1260 days and saying it shouldn't be interpreted as literal days? If so why not literal days?

 

Are  1260 Days, 42 months, 3 1/2 years  different ? Why 

[ARGOSY]

 

Are  1260 Days, 42 months, 3 1/2 years  different ? Why 

 

 

 

they are the same. They all represent three and a half years.

[Izzel]

 

 

 

What time frame is this 12th chapter ?

 

2000 years ago ?

or

Is it all future ?

 

If its all future who is the man child ?

Who is the remnant that are born from her also sometime later ? (I can't seeing it being Mary other children)

 

 

Good question, but I believe the time-frame is mentioned in verse 5 and 6

And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

 

Jesus is the man-child, after Jesus resurrection, Israel fled into the wilderness (into the nations). There Israel will find a place of protection for the 3.5 tribulation years during which the church will be persecuted. So it covers 2000 plus years.

 

The remnant are us believers who are the offspring of Israel (adopted sons of Abraham)

Romans 4:16

Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

 

It is not 1260 days 

 

What isn't 1260 days?  Are you referring to Rev 12 which mentions 1260 days and saying it shouldn't be interpreted as literal days? If so why not literal days?

 

It is 1260 years 

 

A Time = 1 year

Times = 2 years

Dividing of Times = 1/2 year.

360 X 3yr =1080 180 or 1/2 year = 1260

 

Forty two months = 42 X 30 = 1260

Two hundred and threescore = 1260

This same power depicted as controlling religious affairs for 1260 years, will again arise. It's deadly wound healed. Together with the "power of the dragon" and "force of the second beast" the world will be brought to a crises. (See Rev. 13) Therefore it is imperative that we understand this issue.

[ARGOSY]

It is 1260 years 

 

 

A Time = 1 year

Times = 2 years

Dividing of Times = 1/2 year.

360 X 3yr =1080 180 or 1/2 year = 1260

 

Forty two months = 42 X 30 = 1260

Two hundred and threescore = 1260

This same power depicted as controlling religious affairs for 1260 years, will again arise. It's deadly wound healed. Together with the "power of the dragon" and "force of the second beast" the world will be brought to a crises. (See Rev. 13) Therefore it is imperative that we understand this issue.

 

 

Where is your evidence that the bible favors day=year  rather than day=day? I feel that a 3,5 year tribulation period is being referred to.