Guest shiloh357 Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I don't read Genesis the way you do. I try and read it as an ancient Hebrew would read it. LOL, I don't think so. There are too many clues (for me) that suggest a non-literal reading is the best. What clues? I would be interested in seeing those clues. It doesn't make sense to me that God should on day 3 grow trees and plants without sunlight, and then on day 4 decide that sunlight was essential; it doesn't make sense to me that a serpent should one day talk and then not, and should somehow walk but then crawl. It doesn't make sense that there exists an vernal enclosure cut off from us by a cherubim and flaming swords, yet no one has found it. It doesn't make sense that Adam and EVe were so stupid they didn't think of reentering the garden from the west, north, or south. It doesn't have to make sense to you. Whether it makes sense to you or not, has no bearing on whether or not it is true. There are things about God that don't makes sense, should we discard things about God that don't make sense? Where would we stop? Could all that be true on the basis of 'God can do whatever He wants'? Sure. Of course. But I set out to see if there were an interpretation that made more sense....I found it. It doesn't care how old the earth is or where thistles came from or how the serpent lost its voice. It makes sense. Good... so what? And please withhold any quips about "so, Scripture has to yield to what makes sense to you...". You (or someone from your side) will or has said that it doesn't make sense that God would describe Creation as He does without meaning it to be taken literally. To this I would say, "So God has to accommodate your expectations? He couldn't have been speaking to the Hebrews in terms meant for them, which can only be divulged to us through hard study? The question isn't about what God could have done. The question raised is, "what did God say He did?" Genesis 1 is not written in hard to undersand, mystical language. The Hebrew grammatical structure is very plain and matter-of-fact. You are trying to pencil meanings that fit what you are prepared to believe, irresepective of what the text actually says. I will never attempt to show that the Bible teaches an OE. I don't think it does; I don't think it teaches a young earth. I believe the 6 days has a completely different significance. If somehow it could be proven scientifically that the earth were young, I would still hold to my interpretation. I believe that interpretation to be the one intended by God, or at least closer to His intention. You will believe what you want to believe and no one is supposed to confuse you with the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted February 9, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted February 9, 2014 "Enoch, I can only shake my head at this point." Please spare me your condescending remarks You speak that as if you haven't been speaking condescendingly yourself. "Why are you so obstinately dead set against interpreting Genesis 1 from the context of how the ancient Israelites would have understood and interpreted Genesis 1?" Because it wasn't written JUST FOR THEM!!! But it was written in their language, using their culture, expressed with their cultural and language idioms, and addressed issues that were relevant to them and their circumstances. Going back to the example of slavery, you need to interpret that in the context of what was good for the people back then, not what is good for people today with those passages. Who was the first Israelite and when were they first mentioned in the Bible: Book, Chapter, and Verse? That's a little ridiculous. The Torah, of which Genesis is a part of, was first written to and for the Israelites who came out of Egypt. This is common knowledge. I fail to understand why you are contesting this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray wolf Posted February 9, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 28 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,046 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 194 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/25/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/30/1960 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Referring back a couple posts-- too long to qoute again, YEC often doesn't appeal to many in the scientific realms because it operates on a radically different timeline and set of conditions than mainstream scientific models. IMHO some of the ideas are just a little too wild . YEC is a belief system and is best approached, at least in my mind, as a matter of faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-seeker Posted February 9, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 589 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/06/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 9, 2014 "I will say yes, I believe animals died before Man’s fall and perhaps died of disease" "This raises questions immediately:".... I couldn't have said that better myself: (Romans 5:12) "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" (Genesis 3:17-18) "And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;" The "CURSE" wasn't just for Man...."cursed is the ground". Did you know there are Fossilized Thorns in with all the other DEAD Things? GOD Says...."Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth". As in..... NOW it will; As IN, it wasn't there before!! QUESTION: Why would God "curse" the earth with thorns and thistles if they were already there? (Isaiah 65:20-25) "There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. {21} And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. {22} They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. {23} They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. {24} And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. {25} The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD." Credit to Shiloh for this..... "You will notice that it is not just the human condition that undergoes a change when sin is removed. All of creation was effected. It, therefore, follows that when sin came into the physical world via Adam's disobedience, there was a change in all of creation." SO.........If death and disease (the clear result of SIN) was before Adam Sinned, why the need for a KINSMEN REDEEMER? Look, IF you insist on playing the "literal" game, then of course you're going to win. It's YOUR game. I don't read Genesis the way you do. I try and read it as an ancient Hebrew would read it. There are too many clues (for me) that suggest a non-literal reading is the best. It doesn't make sense to me that God should on day 3 grow trees and plants without sunlight, and then on day 4 decide that sunlight was essential; it doesn't make sense to me that a serpent should one day talk and then not, and should somehow walk but then crawl. It doesn't make sense that there exists an vernal enclosure cut off from us by a cherubim and flaming swords, yet no one has found it. It doesn't make sense that Adam and EVe were so stupid they didn't think of reentering the garden from the west, north, or south. Could all that be true on the basis of 'God can do whatever He wants'? Sure. Of course. But I set out to see if there were an interpretation that made more sense....I found it. It doesn't care how old the earth is or where thistles came from or how the serpent lost its voice. And please withhold any quips about "so, Scripture has to yield to what makes sense to you...". You (or someone from your side) will or has said that it doesn't make sense that God would describe Creation as He does without meaning it to be taken literally. To this I would say, "So God has to accommodate your expectations? He couldn't have been speaking to the Hebrews in terms meant for them, which can only be divulged to us through hard study? I am sorry my side frustrates you; but I must separate myself a little from "my side". I will never attempt to show that the Bible teaches an OE. I don't think it does; I don't think it teaches a young earth. I believe the 6 days has a completely different significance. If somehow it could be proven scientifically that the earth were young, I would still hold to my interpretation. I believe that interpretation to be the one intended by God, or at least closer to His intention. clb "IF you insist on playing the "literal" game" I'm not playing games Sir. Genesis is a LITERAL Historical Narrative. (2 Timothy 2:15) "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." This is what I'm doing. "then of course you're going to win." Winning is Irrelevant...it's not a game, so there is no "Winning" "It doesn't make sense to me that God should on day 3 grow trees and plants without sunlight, and then on day 4 decide that sunlight was essential; it doesn't make sense to me that a serpent should one day talk and then not, and should somehow walk but then crawl. It doesn't make sense that there exists an vernal enclosure cut off from us by a cherubim and flaming swords, yet no one has found it. It doesn't make sense that Adam and EVe were so stupid they didn't think of reentering the garden from the west, north, or south." ........ (Proverbs 3:5) "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." (1 Corinthians 3:19) "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness." "And please withhold any quips about "so, Scripture has to yield to what makes sense to you...". Strawman "I am sorry my side frustrates you" It Breaks my Heart Breaks your heart? Why? Because I don't believe in a literal translation of GEnesis? Is Christ not enough? that was WAY over the top clb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-seeker Posted February 9, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 589 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/06/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 9, 2014 I don't read Genesis the way you do. I try and read it as an ancient Hebrew would read it. LOL, I don't think so. There are too many clues (for me) that suggest a non-literal reading is the best. What clues? I would be interested in seeing those clues. It doesn't make sense to me that God should on day 3 grow trees and plants without sunlight, and then on day 4 decide that sunlight was essential; it doesn't make sense to me that a serpent should one day talk and then not, and should somehow walk but then crawl. It doesn't make sense that there exists an vernal enclosure cut off from us by a cherubim and flaming swords, yet no one has found it. It doesn't make sense that Adam and EVe were so stupid they didn't think of reentering the garden from the west, north, or south. It doesn't have to make sense to you. Whether it makes sense to you or not, has no bearing on whether or not it is true. There are things about God that don't makes sense, should we discard things about God that don't make sense? Where would we stop? Could all that be true on the basis of 'God can do whatever He wants'? Sure. Of course. But I set out to see if there were an interpretation that made more sense....I found it. It doesn't care how old the earth is or where thistles came from or how the serpent lost its voice. It makes sense. Good... so what? And please withhold any quips about "so, Scripture has to yield to what makes sense to you...". You (or someone from your side) will or has said that it doesn't make sense that God would describe Creation as He does without meaning it to be taken literally. To this I would say, "So God has to accommodate your expectations? He couldn't have been speaking to the Hebrews in terms meant for them, which can only be divulged to us through hard study? The question isn't about what God could have done. The question raised is, "what did God say He did?" Genesis 1 is not written in hard to undersand, mystical language. The Hebrew grammatical structure is very plain and matter-of-fact. You are trying to pencil meanings that fit what you are prepared to believe, irresepective of what the text actually says. I will never attempt to show that the Bible teaches an OE. I don't think it does; I don't think it teaches a young earth. I believe the 6 days has a completely different significance. If somehow it could be proven scientifically that the earth were young, I would still hold to my interpretation. I believe that interpretation to be the one intended by God, or at least closer to His intention. You will believe what you want to believe and no one is supposed to confuse you with the facts. No Shiloh, You are wrong on all accounts clb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I don't read Genesis the way you do. I try and read it as an ancient Hebrew would read it. LOL, I don't think so. There are too many clues (for me) that suggest a non-literal reading is the best. What clues? I would be interested in seeing those clues. It doesn't make sense to me that God should on day 3 grow trees and plants without sunlight, and then on day 4 decide that sunlight was essential; it doesn't make sense to me that a serpent should one day talk and then not, and should somehow walk but then crawl. It doesn't make sense that there exists an vernal enclosure cut off from us by a cherubim and flaming swords, yet no one has found it. It doesn't make sense that Adam and EVe were so stupid they didn't think of reentering the garden from the west, north, or south. It doesn't have to make sense to you. Whether it makes sense to you or not, has no bearing on whether or not it is true. There are things about God that don't makes sense, should we discard things about God that don't make sense? Where would we stop? Could all that be true on the basis of 'God can do whatever He wants'? Sure. Of course. But I set out to see if there were an interpretation that made more sense....I found it. It doesn't care how old the earth is or where thistles came from or how the serpent lost its voice. It makes sense. Good... so what? And please withhold any quips about "so, Scripture has to yield to what makes sense to you...". You (or someone from your side) will or has said that it doesn't make sense that God would describe Creation as He does without meaning it to be taken literally. To this I would say, "So God has to accommodate your expectations? He couldn't have been speaking to the Hebrews in terms meant for them, which can only be divulged to us through hard study? The question isn't about what God could have done. The question raised is, "what did God say He did?" Genesis 1 is not written in hard to undersand, mystical language. The Hebrew grammatical structure is very plain and matter-of-fact. You are trying to pencil meanings that fit what you are prepared to believe, irresepective of what the text actually says. I will never attempt to show that the Bible teaches an OE. I don't think it does; I don't think it teaches a young earth. I believe the 6 days has a completely different significance. If somehow it could be proven scientifically that the earth were young, I would still hold to my interpretation. I believe that interpretation to be the one intended by God, or at least closer to His intention. You will believe what you want to believe and no one is supposed to confuse you with the facts. No Shiloh, You are wrong on all accounts clb Whatever helps you sleep at night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-seeker Posted February 9, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 589 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/06/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 9, 2014 I don't read Genesis the way you do. I try and read it as an ancient Hebrew would read it. LOL, I don't think so. There are too many clues (for me) that suggest a non-literal reading is the best. What clues? I would be interested in seeing those clues. It doesn't make sense to me that God should on day 3 grow trees and plants without sunlight, and then on day 4 decide that sunlight was essential; it doesn't make sense to me that a serpent should one day talk and then not, and should somehow walk but then crawl. It doesn't make sense that there exists an vernal enclosure cut off from us by a cherubim and flaming swords, yet no one has found it. It doesn't make sense that Adam and EVe were so stupid they didn't think of reentering the garden from the west, north, or south. It doesn't have to make sense to you. Whether it makes sense to you or not, has no bearing on whether or not it is true. There are things about God that don't makes sense, should we discard things about God that don't make sense? Where would we stop? Could all that be true on the basis of 'God can do whatever He wants'? Sure. Of course. But I set out to see if there were an interpretation that made more sense....I found it. It doesn't care how old the earth is or where thistles came from or how the serpent lost its voice. It makes sense. Good... so what? And please withhold any quips about "so, Scripture has to yield to what makes sense to you...". You (or someone from your side) will or has said that it doesn't make sense that God would describe Creation as He does without meaning it to be taken literally. To this I would say, "So God has to accommodate your expectations? He couldn't have been speaking to the Hebrews in terms meant for them, which can only be divulged to us through hard study? The question isn't about what God could have done. The question raised is, "what did God say He did?" Genesis 1 is not written in hard to undersand, mystical language. The Hebrew grammatical structure is very plain and matter-of-fact. You are trying to pencil meanings that fit what you are prepared to believe, irresepective of what the text actually says. I will never attempt to show that the Bible teaches an OE. I don't think it does; I don't think it teaches a young earth. I believe the 6 days has a completely different significance. If somehow it could be proven scientifically that the earth were young, I would still hold to my interpretation. I believe that interpretation to be the one intended by God, or at least closer to His intention. You will believe what you want to believe and no one is supposed to confuse you with the facts. No Shiloh, You are wrong on all accounts clb Whatever helps you sleep at night. THANKS!! That's the nicest thing you've ever said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray wolf Posted February 9, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 28 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,046 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 194 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/25/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/30/1960 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted February 10, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted February 10, 2014 "IF you insist on playing the "literal" game" I'm not playing games Sir. Genesis is a LITERAL Historical Narrative. (2 Timothy 2:15) "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." This is what I'm doing. "then of course you're going to win." Winning is Irrelevant...it's not a game, so there is no "Winning" "It doesn't make sense to me that God should on day 3 grow trees and plants without sunlight, and then on day 4 decide that sunlight was essential; it doesn't make sense to me that a serpent should one day talk and then not, and should somehow walk but then crawl. It doesn't make sense that there exists an vernal enclosure cut off from us by a cherubim and flaming swords, yet no one has found it. It doesn't make sense that Adam and EVe were so stupid they didn't think of reentering the garden from the west, north, or south." ........ (Proverbs 3:5) "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." (1 Corinthians 3:19) "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness." "And please withhold any quips about "so, Scripture has to yield to what makes sense to you...". Strawman "I am sorry my side frustrates you" It Breaks my Heart Breaks your heart? Why? Because I don't believe in a literal translation of GEnesis? Is Christ not enough? that was WAY over the top clb "Breaks your heart? Why? Because I don't believe in a literal translation of GEnesis? Is Christ not enough?" Jesus Christ is the Literal Translation of Genesis. HE'S on every single page in every single verse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted February 10, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted February 10, 2014 "Enoch, I can only shake my head at this point." Please spare me your condescending remarks You speak that as if you haven't been speaking condescendingly yourself. "You speak that as if you haven't been speaking condescendingly yourself." Well yes of course I do.... mainly because I haven't. Unless you define Condescending as: A Point By Point Direct Refutation of Assertions either supported by Scripture, "Science", or Common Sense. Condescending: showing or characterized by a patronizing or superior attitude toward others. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/condescending "Enoch, I can only shake my head at this point." is the textbook definition of Condescending. Moreover; If I were condescending...are you saying that then you are justified in returning the insult? Sort of like, "That's what I am..... what are you" scenario? I deal with this on a daily basis. I have 5th Grader (Daughter) and a 2nd Grader (Son) in which this plays out over and over again almost on a daily basis. Or, when I catch them doing something that they're not suppose to be doing or catch either in a LIE. They then....: divert divert divert, make up a story, blame someone/something else, or dive head long into an emotional manipulation descent. We are all fallible and I have my share but I suppose the difference between kids and adults is the kids attempt to weasel their way out (see: tactics above) where Adults are suppose to: Stand Accountable, ask for Forgiveness, then drive on and try not to make that same mistake again. Am I in error here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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