Proof of GOD, (without attacking Old Earth or evolution)

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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Define Biblical Faith?

 

Certainty based on belief. Confidence that doesn’t reside on concrete evidence.

 

 

Well that begs the question....how in the world can you be "Certain" based on just a belief??

 

 

No, let’s not take a term out of context but rather put it into context.  Hebrews 11:1 “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, ...” “Substance” can be interpreted a number of ways but for the sake of your argument we will leave it at substance.

 

No, it's not out of context; it's defined for you right here.....

 

 

slide courtesy of Dr. Chuck Missler

 

Notice the last Compare and Contrast.....it's ANTITHETICAL to Hypothesis and Theory      Yes sir.

 

 

You wrongly focus all of your interpretation on that very word “substance” and neglect the meaning of the verse.  “Hoped for” is the key.

 

"Hoped for" isn't the "key" for our purposes LOL.  Faith -------> IS <-------the substance..... OF things hoped for.  Then what's Substance?? (SEE: Slide above)

 

 

As a child if you “hoped for” a red rider BB gun, one could conclude that the BB gun has “substance” but at present it is only a “hope”.

 

Laughing..... Out..... Loud.  You can't Hope for something "RATIONALLY" if you didn't know it had some kind of substance in the first place 

 

I guess you could "Hope For" 3 Toed Gnomes to throw pixie dust @ your next Birthday Party but.....that's where "Rationality" OF SUBSTANCE comes into play.

 

Love the movie, by the way.

 

if you do receive the BB gun you would no longer “hope”...why would you hope for something that you already have.

 

My goodness this is tedious.  Well because your analogy is faulty.  We haven't received the Red Rider BB yet, per say, that is.... we are not with HIM in Heaven just yet.  But we still have the SUBSTANCE or EVIDENCE of it...more on this below.

 

 

Same with Faith, “substance” is hoped for

 

Substance isn't hoped for

 

 

But the verse continues “..., the evidence of things not seen.” If you can’t see the “evidence” how can you prove it exists?

 

Yes, I know it continues.  I told you this before.....You're walking down a country road nobody around for miles and you come across a BMW. "MOST" intuitively know that nature didn't create the car there had to be an Engineer (Designer). Even though you will most likely never see the (Designer)....you know HE'S out there!

 

Life.....a Simple Cell's "Specific Complexity" is 10 ^{000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000----------->}

 

A BMW's "Specific Complexity" is 10 in comparison, Tops.

 

Then you build on that knowledge with WHO is The Designer. (1LOT, Prophecy, Historicity, et al)

 

You don't walk through this life and perceive everything or anything in a VACUUM.  You put 2 or more related concepts together and form a coherent stream of thought.

 

I've never seen the bottom of the Ocean but with the SUBSTANCE of the Water on TOP along with an Understanding H₂O's properties....I can pretty much lay it on the line that THERE'S........SOME WATER DOWN THERE!!!

 

 

I’ll ignore the rest of your response as you seem to be having enough difficulty with the definition of Faith.

 

A more accurate description would be...... you will NOT respond to "the rest" of my response because of......whatever.  Because, how would you Know whether to ignore my response or not if you had ignored it to begin with?? 

You must have the SUBSTANCE of something FIRST.......to then be able to ignore it post hoc. 

[Enoch2021]

 Um, okay.

 

Natural means: by means of nature

proof:  evidence or argument that compels one to accept an assertion as true

Faith: A strong or unshakable belief in God/Jesus/the Bible, especially without proof or evidence

 

I think you misunderstood me.  I didn't say hearing the Word is proof of God. (is that what you thought I said? Otherwise I don't understand the purpose of your questions).  If we're seeking God, we look to His Word.  I paraphrased last time, but here is the actual verse.

 

Romans 10:17 "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."

 

Hearing the Word doesn't magically save us, but it does have power. 

 

Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

 

 

James 1:18 "In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures."

 

The Holy Spirit calls each of us to faith.  The Bible is the message of that faith, but we can't accept it without the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

 1 Corinthians 2:10-14  "For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."

 

Our faith is sustained by the Word, not by looking for physical evidence or logical arguments.

 

1 Corinthians 2:5 "so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God."

 

2 Corinthians 5:7 "for we walk by faith, not by sight--"

Hebrews 11:1-3  "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

 

If one is convinced of God only by clever arguments and physical evidence, then they can be unconvinced the same way.  Is that true faith?

 

 

 

 

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Natural means: by means of nature

 

Thanks, that's much more clear now.

 

 

Well everything in teal in your post I CONCUR.  Everything in Black, not so much.

 

SEE: Here (Tired of typing    ) : 

 

Or Look Up 

[Sheniy]

 

Um, okay.

 

Natural means: by means of nature

proof:  evidence or argument that compels one to accept an assertion as true

Faith: A strong or unshakable belief in God/Jesus/the Bible, especially without proof or evidence

 

I think you misunderstood me.  I didn't say hearing the Word is proof of God. (is that what you thought I said? Otherwise I don't understand the purpose of your questions).  If we're seeking God, we look to His Word.  I paraphrased last time, but here is the actual verse.

 

Romans 10:17 "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."

 

Hearing the Word doesn't magically save us, but it does have power. 

 

Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

 

 

James 1:18 "In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures."

 

The Holy Spirit calls each of us to faith.  The Bible is the message of that faith, but we can't accept it without the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

 1 Corinthians 2:10-14  "For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."

 

Our faith is sustained by the Word, not by looking for physical evidence or logical arguments.

 

1 Corinthians 2:5 "so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God."

 

2 Corinthians 5:7 "for we walk by faith, not by sight--"

Hebrews 11:1-3  "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

 

If one is convinced of God only by clever arguments and physical evidence, then they can be unconvinced the same way.  Is that true faith?

 

 

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Natural means: by means of nature

 

Thanks, that's much more clear now.

 

 Of my entire post, THIS is what you comment on?  Can you please explain why you asked me to define those terms?

 

I am going to pull one from Enoch's book (not the actual Book of Enoch lol) and say this:

 

  Interesting points Chuck Missler made there, but he propagated a non-literal translation of Genesis 3, which makes me want to

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just kidding.  I like Dr Missler.   And I won't bash your source just so I can dodge the point you're trying to make.  That's not how I roll.

 

Anyway, more to follow on your "substance" post.

 

 

 

 

[Enoch2021]

 

 

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Of my entire post, THIS is what you comment on?  Can you please explain why you asked me to define those terms?

 

Sorry wasn't @ my best @ the time of responding to you and I felt alot of the items were discussed in the post I just wrote then Attached.

 

Is it ok that I just didn't feel like it?   Can I get a pass? 

[Sheniy]

Meaning of hupostasis according to the Missler pic:

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  - an exact reproduction

  - assurance

***The meaning is substance; that which gives real meaning

  - it was used in ancient documents as evidence of title deeds and gave guarantee of ownership

  - It refers to the real essence, the real content, the reality; faith is the essence of a future reality

***As a scientific term, the antithetical to the hypothesis or theory

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Okay, I am trying to understand your point here.  Faith is the hupostasis (assurance, reality, evidence) of things hoped for, which is opposite of hypothesis (educated guess).  So this means that because I have faith, I am not guessing or theorizing about the promises of God (things hoped for), I am assured of them.

 

This actually fits the context of the chapter.  A few verses later, different men and women of the past were mentioned.  God made them a promise or delivered a warning, they believed without physical evidence, and their faith is rewarded.  Some had faith in the promises, but they never saw the hope fulfilled before they died.  This faith is credited to them as righteousness.

 

In the context of the passage, it seems to be giving credit to those with strong, concrete faith, or faith with substance.

 

This is an honest reading of the text.  I am not trying to "extrapolate" anything but the truth, I promise.  I'd never considered this before since the NIV (the translation I've used forever) translates it as "faith is confidence in what we hope for".  The conclusion seemed obvious to me.

 

note also that one definition on Missler's page says "faith is the essence of a future reality", which is basically what Tolken said.

 

 

I am curious what the topic of Missler's discussion was here.  Is there a title for this teaching?

 

 

 

Well that begs the question....how in the world can you be "Certain" based on just a belief??

 

  Faith is substance, remember?  Substance = assurance, concrete evidence.  Faith is certainty.

 

Let me quote my last post here, because I don't want to re-type it all (please consider it all in context with scripture):

 

Our faith is sustained by the Word, not by looking for physical evidence or logical arguments.

 

1 Corinthians 2:5 "so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God."
 
2 Corinthians 5:7 "for we walk by faith, not by sight--"

Hebrews 11:1-3  "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

 

If one is convinced of God only by clever arguments and physical evidence, then they can be unconvinced the same way.  Is that true faith?
 

 

 

[Sheniy]

 

 

 

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Of my entire post, THIS is what you comment on?  Can you please explain why you asked me to define those terms?

 

Sorry wasn't @ my best @ the time of responding to you and I felt alot of the items were discussed in the post I just wrote then Attached.

 

Is it ok that I just didn't feel like it?   Can I get a pass? 

 

 

Okay...  But I really wanted to know. 

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

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Of my entire post, THIS is what you comment on?  Can you please explain why you asked me to define those terms?

 

Sorry wasn't @ my best @ the time of responding to you and I felt alot of the items were discussed in the post I just wrote then Attached.

 

Is it ok that I just didn't feel like it?   Can I get a pass? 

 

 

Okay...  But I really wanted to know. 

 

 

 

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Well because there's alot of miscommunication on these threads and the source is:  Everybody appears to have their own definition of Basic Terms.

 

Good?

[a-seeker]

Well, argument from incredulity is a subset of argument from ignorance. From reading your posts, Connor, I would never insinuate that you are ignorant, on the contrary you seem sharper than I. I only say ignorance in that we have not found the answers yet. I think that if we would have stopped at God-did-it, we would have missed a lot of wonder - think telescopes, Hubble, LHC etc...Science is the search for God. We will never find him by natural means, but we will only harm ourselves by stopping the search. There are still a lot of us who believe in the bible no matter what we think the evidence tells us. If Enoch can't grasp that well...that's an argument from ignorance. GB.

Understood....

 

You know, part of the problem is your status as an "unbeliever".  Is that a self-assigned status? I began with that status and it threw off a lot of people (so they bumped me up to Seeker! I should've thrown a party at my church). 

 

I absolutely agree that we must continue to exploring the natural world.  But Philosophically I cannot account for its or our origins and our experiences apart from a supernatural power that is self-existent (uncaused).  Now if you agree with that, we are probably on the same page.

 

clb

[a-seeker]

 

Context:  "(Ephesians 3:18) "May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;"

 

This refers to the vastness of the love of Christ (which passes knowledge), evidently eading to being filled to all the fullness of God.  If you want to know how to be "filled," read Ephesians 3:14-19, the only passage I know of that tells you how.

 

 

I know the context, Thanks.  Kinda coincidental that's how they Exactly describe our reality in Physics.

 

Not kinda, ABSOLUTELY coincidental.  Exegesis by association.  You read science into the Bible.

 

clb

[Tolken]

Enoch2021 - Well that begs the question....how in the world can you be "Certain" based on just a belief??

 

Ask God he inspired the writings...it is simply a paradox of which Christianity contains many. I would suggest that you look up faith and belief as obviously the meaning eludes you. It isn’t “begging the question” that is the core of Christianity...that is why people call it a Faith!

 

"Hoped for" isn't the "key" for our purposes LOL.  Faith -------> IS <-------the substance..... OF things hoped for.  Then what's Substance?? (SEE: Slide above)

 

There you are totally wrong “hoped for” is the key.” The verse does not say “Faith is the substance and evidence”. The “OF” is a preposition, prepositions are relational so you can’t merely dismiss “hoped for” as you see fit. The very purpose of a preposition is to relate words within a sentence thus “Substance” is related to “hope”, and any interpretation requires one to relate those two words.

So, Faith is the substance of ( of what?) “things hoped for”. Therefore Faith is based on belief, it is the certainty, confidence, title-deed, and substance of things hoped for, it is a paradox.

 

We haven't received the Red Rider BB yet, per say, that is.... we are not with HIM in Heaven just yet.  But we still have the SUBSTANCE or EVIDENCE of it...more on this below.

 

All analogies fail at some level but I see that you made use of it, although your final point is mistaken. We don’t have substance or evidence we have faith, trust, belief in the actualization of that trust, faith, and belief.

 

BMW

 

Again, any teleological argument is supportive not proof. One can take all of the arguments for God and you still end with a “Reasoned Faith” not proof. In a previous post I mentioned some names, which amusingly you went on a rant about, and all I was suggesting was that they are in the front line of debate on all of these arguments for God’s existence and the veracity of the Bible.

 

It's not arrogance, just old hat...I've seen and refuted all of them @ one time or another.  But since you never support your assertions we just won't know.

 

I’ve supported my assertion as to Hebrews 11:1 and to Faith. Once you realize your mistaken reading of that passage you may understand why I no longer choose to hop aboard that merry-go-round...been there, done that. Perhaps too you will understand that you can support your faith/belief but never refute counter arguments based on proof – because it doesn’t exist. (Which is actually another Atheist argument)  

 

A more accurate description would be...... you will NOT respond to "the rest" of my response because of......whatever.  Because, how would you Know whether to ignore my response or not if you had ignored it to begin with??

 

No, because what you continually fail to realize is that Faith and proof are contradictions. Having proof doesn’t require the need for Faith. Once again, belief in God, Jesus, the Bible is based on Faith which happens to be exactly what the Bible says. So your ramblings offer no validity when the very premise is amiss. "If the proposition is wrong, reason increases maleficence." RW

 

Also look up "Appeal to Authority" and "Argument to Popularity" 

 

Unlike you I am quite aware of fallacious arguments, you toss them around so often they lose all meaning. First “appeal to authority” is not a fallacy when one actually uses an authority to support their claim. (It is a fallacy when you use a podiatrist to support your claim regarding biblical prophesy) So when I wrote “take your prophesy proofs up with them.” it was not an appeal but a suggestion for you to view counter arguments. "Argument to Popularity" once again, you attempt to apply something where no argument was made. “I would suggest that you contact a number apologists” is not an argument to popularity.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Tolken