Genesis 1: the obvious reading??

[Enoch2021]

 

 

that the behavior of light or any natural process was radically different,

 

I am Absolutely Stupefied Connor.  Here's an emoticon that perfectly illustrates a complete summation of this statement, I think you might understand this one.....    I must have posted a demonstrable 1 + 1 = 2, CLEAR and Obvious, Thoroughly Documented Scripture Laden Rebuttal to this @ least 20 times....I'm @ the end.

 

 

Connor you seem like a Good Man to me...... so it's not personal.  If my replies have come off as Condescending or Arrogant I am Truly sorry, it's not and wasn't my intent.

 

But I have provided Counter Arguments with a METRIC TON of Support.  There's not much else I can do.  I stated the case....I rest.

 

I have to admit, Enoch, your posts are sometimes so...loud, that I don't even read them completely (if I don't, then other's likely don't as well). I will skim them over and reply to some bits here or there, but I'm sure there is a lot that I missed, and other parts that seemed a bit off topic and so I disregard them.

From your perspective, you've given a "metric ton" of evidence, but I haven't seen that much. Some, yes. But likely not as much as you think.

Although, I did just confess to not reading all of it...so...

Anyway, my point of this is that you left out the second part of connor's sentence, which is important to his argument (I think...).

Using scripture as evidence doesn't really work if your intended audience doesn't agree with your interpretation of that Scripture.

I am pretty sleep deprived right now, so I hope this makes any sense...

 

 

 

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Can you do me a Huge Favor after you get some sleep and read the Post or Posts in TOTO.....

 

Instead of Giving Baseless Generalized Assertions (which your WHOLE POST IS) with each assertion, can you fight the tendency to leave as is and provide a or the SPECIFIC EXAMPLE or ITEM(S) in Question so as to SUPPORT what you say.

 

Or is this a Rude or Unreasonable Request?

 

Thanks

[Tolken]

Enoch2021 wrote: "Only Adam was created from dust, Love. And most importantly for our discussion ... in VIOLATION of all known "scientific" laws.

 

Yet, Genesis 2:19 states that God "had formed out of the ground all of the beasts of the field, and all the birds of the air".  (Also, Ecc. 3:20) Perhaps "Let the land produce living creatures"?

 

Enoch2021 wrote: "...I'm not saying the laws didn't exist...I'm saying they were not the same during the Creation week as they are today...they weren't fixed.

 

This is mere assertion as there is no scriptural support that any laws were suspended.  I can assert that the laws of nature and the processes of all life were all created at God's command... not necessary at all to suspend any "laws". I see no scriptural prohibitive from suggesting that each fiat day expressed the incipient powers, the appropriate elements and material to accomplish God's command, and that the accomplishment was done in the framework of the "laws" God created at the beginning.

 

The interpretation of Genesis as having a specific structure is demonstrably true, is it not? As I've written a number of times the ONLY operative that Genesis states is that "God said". "God made" is explanatory, fulfillment imposes no time frame, and yes I am able to assert that given the laws of nature indefinite time is not only possible but probable. The Biblical text nowhere states the completion of the "fiat" on the given day, Beyond the "Fiat" is independent explanation not the narrative proper. 

[Enoch2021]

Enoch2021 wrote: "Only Adam was created from dust, Love. And most importantly for our discussion ... in VIOLATION of all known "scientific" laws.

 

Yet, Genesis 2:19 states that God "had formed out of the ground all of the beasts of the field, and all the birds of the air".  (Also, Ecc. 3:20) Perhaps "Let the land produce living creatures"?

 

Enoch2021 wrote: "...I'm not saying the laws didn't exist...I'm saying they were not the same during the Creation week as they are today...they weren't fixed.

 

This is mere assertion as there is no scriptural support that any laws were suspended.  I can assert that the laws of nature and the processes of all life were all created at God's command... not necessary at all to suspend any "laws". I see no scriptural prohibitive from suggesting that each fiat day expressed the incipient powers, the appropriate elements and material to accomplish God's command, and that the accomplishment was done in the framework of the "laws" God created at the beginning.

 

The interpretation of Genesis as having a specific structure is demonstrably true, is it not? As I've written a number of times the ONLY operative that Genesis states is that "God said". "God made" is explanatory, fulfillment imposes no time frame, and yes I am able to assert that given the laws of nature indefinite time is not only possible but probable. The Biblical text nowhere states the completion of the "fiat" on the given day, Beyond the "Fiat" is independent explanation not the narrative proper. 

 

 

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Yet, Genesis 2:19 states that God "had formed out of the ground all of the beasts of the field, and all the birds of the air".  (Also, Ecc. 3:20) Perhaps "Let the land produce living creatures"?

 

Yes I know.  It's probably a Good Idea to keep the comment in context; we were talking about People.....HUMANS in our discussion.  As in.... only ADAM from the Human "Kind" was created from Dust. 

 

 

This is mere assertion as there is no scriptural support that any laws were suspended.  In response to  ...I'm not saying the laws didn't exist...I'm saying they were not the same during the Creation week as they are today...they weren't fixed.

 

Just a mere assertion, eh?   Suspended......WHAT LAWS?  Show Me an ADAM right now being formed from DUST??  If somebody formed from Dust in front of your Face right now....would that Violate all the known Laws of Physics/Chemistry/Biochemistry???

 

Or is just a run of the mill everyday thing in your neck of the woods?

 

 

(Genesis 1:1) "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

 

Can you tell what LAW "PILLAR OF SCIENCE" was NOT In Operation here SIR, I'll give you Multiple Choice:

 

A:  Habeas Corpus

 

B.  Immigration Law

 

C.  The 1st Law of Thermodynamics (1LOT) "Pillar of Science"

 

How about forming the Sun, Moon, and Stars on Day 4:

 

A.  Habeas Corpus

 

B.  Contract Law

 

C. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (2LOT) "Pillar of Science"

 

D. Boyle's Gas LAW

 

Hint: Two are correct.  Unless you can show me a STAR FORM....Please provide Pics and Cite Source!!

 

 

You sure have an Infatuation with "FIAT", eh?  What does this mean to you...........

 

(Isaiah 55:11) "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."

 

but then you have this, right.....

 

I am able to assert that given the laws of nature indefinite time is not only possible but probable

 

Yes you are able to assert anything you want on these boards..... just a cursory review of these threads shows that very fact.

 

You're getting into Exponential Preposterousness^{100000000000000000000000000000000000}  with this statement.   SUPPORT IT!

 

You also have to explain the Phrase...."And GOD SAW that it was Good and the Evening and Morning was.....(the first day, (2) for the Third Day, the 4th Day, 5th Day, and 6th Day)  Along with the 6 Times "And it WAS SO".

 

And then take a crack @ this.....(Exodus 20:11) "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

 

Thanks

[EnochBethany]

 

Enoch2021 wrote: "Only Adam was created from dust, Love. And most importantly for our discussion ... in VIOLATION of all known "scientific" laws.

 

Yet, Genesis 2:19 states that God "had formed out of the ground all of the beasts of the field, and all the birds of the air".  (Also, Ecc. 3:20) Perhaps "Let the land produce living creatures"?

 

Enoch2021 wrote: "...I'm not saying the laws didn't exist...I'm saying they were not the same during the Creation week as they are today...they weren't fixed.

 

This is mere assertion as there is no scriptural support that any laws were suspended.  I can assert that the laws of nature and the processes of all life were all created at God's command... not necessary at all to suspend any "laws". I see no scriptural prohibitive from suggesting that each fiat day expressed the incipient powers, the appropriate elements and material to accomplish God's command, and that the accomplishment was done in the framework of the "laws" God created at the beginning.

 

The interpretation of Genesis as having a specific structure is demonstrably true, is it not? As I've written a number of times the ONLY operative that Genesis states is that "God said". "God made" is explanatory, fulfillment imposes no time frame, and yes I am able to assert that given the laws of nature indefinite time is not only possible but probable. The Biblical text nowhere states the completion of the "fiat" on the given day, Beyond the "Fiat" is independent explanation not the narrative proper. 

 

 

==============================================================================================

 

 

Yet, Genesis 2:19 states that God "had formed out of the ground all of the beasts of the field, and all the birds of the air".  (Also, Ecc. 3:20) Perhaps "Let the land produce living creatures"?

 

Yes I know.  It's probably a Good Idea to keep the comment in context; we were talking about People.....HUMANS in our discussion.  As in.... only ADAM from the Human "Kind" was created from Dust. 

 

 

This is mere assertion as there is no scriptural support that any laws were suspended.  In response to  ...I'm not saying the laws didn't exist...I'm saying they were not the same during the Creation week as they are today...they weren't fixed.

 

Just a mere assertion, eh?   Suspended......WHAT LAWS?  Show Me an ADAM right now being formed from DUST??  If somebody formed from Dust in front of your Face right now....would that Violate all the known Laws of Physics/Chemistry/Biochemistry???

 

Or is just a run of the mill everyday thing in your neck of the woods?

 

 

(Genesis 1:1) "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

 

Can you tell what LAW "PILLAR OF SCIENCE" was NOT In Operation here SIR, I'll give you Multiple Choice:

 

A:  Habeas Corpus

 

B.  Immigration Law

 

C.  The 1st Law of Thermodynamics (1LOT) "Pillar of Science"

 

How about forming the Sun, Moon, and Stars on Day 4:

 

A.  Habeas Corpus

 

B.  Contract Law

 

C. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (2LOT) "Pillar of Science"

 

D. Boyle's Gas LAW

 

Hint: Two are correct.  Unless you can show me a STAR FORM....Please provide Pics and Cite Source!!

 

 

You sure have an Infatuation with "FIAT", eh?  What does this mean to you...........

 

(Isaiah 55:11) "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."

 

but then you have this, right.....

 

I am able to assert that given the laws of nature indefinite time is not only possible but probable

 

Yes you are able to assert anything you want on these boards..... just a cursory review of these threads shows that very fact.

 

You're getting into Exponential Preposterousness^{100000000000000000000000000000000000}  with this statement.   SUPPORT IT!

 

You also have to explain the Phrase...."And GOD SAW that it was Good and the Evening and Morning was.....(the first day, (2) for the Third Day, the 4th Day, 5th Day, and 6th Day)  Along with the 6 Times "And it WAS SO".

 

And then take a crack @ this.....(Exodus 20:11) "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

 

Thanks

 

It hath been said by men of new:  "This is mere assertion as there is no scriptural support that any laws were suspended."

 

Does anyone have a Bible passage where any such thing as "scientific law" is mentioned?

[Tolken]

Enoch2021 wrote: "Only Adam from the human kind was made from dust".

 

Ecc. 3:20 "all come from dust and to dust all return."  Psalm 103:14 "...for he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust".  It would be logical to conclude that we all, as well as animals, come from dust.  Childbirth is fairly common in my "neck of the woods", though the birth of a child is miraculous, I assume all means all.  Interesting too ...that birth involves a process.

 

Enoch2021 wrote: "You also have to explain the phrase..."

 

Perhaps I should explain "fiat" as my use essentially means a decree, sometimes I use command. It seems obvious, at least to me, that a "plain" reading of Genesis 1 states that "And God said" is the one and only operative of creation, do you see something different?  Now, what does this mean to you...Psalm 33:6 or Hebrews 11:3?  I'm surprised that more people don't see any significance in Genesis 1 relative to "And God said", don't you?

 

Also, no need for me "to take a crack" at Exodus 20:11 because nowhere have I intimated or suggested anything other than 6 days. I do not necessarily believe that one must hold God to consecutive days, and further the fulfillment is of indefinite time spans.  I happen to believe that what God ordains, decrees, commands will come to pass. We already addressed the "incipient powers, elements and material" as to the natural processes God ordained.

 

As way of illustration of my "preposterous" statements a brief look at verse 9. A "plain" reading of the text does not state "And God said, Let there be land". Rather the terms depicts processes just as in other verses such as 11,20, 24...  If one chooses to read some geology, which I no longer wish to do, they will find that the basic rocks forming continents to be quite different from those found at the ocean floor. Also, the ocean crust is something like 5 miles thick whereas continental thickness can be to 40 miles thick. All this arrives us to state that the process involved in verse 9 would require time...a bit more than 24 hours.  That is unless one chooses to believe that God suspended the laws He had instituted at the time of creation...which you are welcome to believe. (And we needn't play games with a multiple choice quiz) 

[Enoch2021]

It hath been said by men of new:  "This is mere assertion as there is no scriptural support that any laws were suspended."

 

Does anyone have a Bible passage where any such thing as "scientific law" is mentioned?

 

 

 

Good Point.  We are taking some Liberties with a few Inferences.

 

Having said that, You're on a roll today Enoch .....that crack on the evolution thread was Hiarious 

[nebula]

I do not perceive this as a case where the physical laws did not exist yet,

 Neb, I'm not saying the Laws didn't Exist....I'm saying they were not the same during Creation Week as they are today.... They Weren't FIXED

OK, but I still disagree with you. As I stated, miracles occur when God performs outside of our physical laws.

After all, what physical laws explain or enable the Nile to turn to blood, the Red Sea to part, the sun to stand still, a donkey talking with a human voice, and axe heading floating when a stick was thrown in the water, water turned to wine, blind eyes seeing, bread and fish multiplied, a paralyzed man walking, etc?

 

Do you believe God could create another man this same way today if He wanted to? I believe He could if He wanted to (why He isn't is another topic).

Yes, without even thinking.  It is quite apparent to me, GOD holds every Electron in Every Atom's Orbit in the Entire Universe AND HE must be directly involved in Every Single Cell Division....I see no other explanation, Personally.

 

And this was not the point I was trying to make.  Just to show that the LAWS were not fixed then, so any extrapolation from today's current LAWS is nonsensical. IMHO.

Then I am clearly not understanding what you mean by the laws not being fixed then but fixed now if God can still do as He did then.

 

There is one question that is missing, or two.

What happened to the light created on Day 1?

Why did God need to create other lights to light upon the earth?

Unless this means that after God separated light from darkness, He created the "the land" inside the darkness.

And why did He create "light" on Day 1 if it was not to be a part of our existence? Or at least why mention it as a part of our story?

I don't know

And this is why I think we are missing something when we restrict our understanding to a 144-hour creation and try to make sense out of it this way. There are things that don't fit into place, and this is one of them.

 

So, what is that light God created Day 1, and where is it?

Well from reading the Text and Comparing Scripture with Scripture.  Light "Was" on the First Day.  HE didn't create the Sun/Moon,Stars until Day 4.  I say Conundrum..... time to dig deeper.  Is there any place in Scripture where there is Light without the SUN......

 

(Revelation 22:5) "And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever."

 

GOD is "LIGHT".  Case closed for me.

This makes it sound as if you are saying God had to create light before He could be light?

 

 

Actually, you do get signs from the Moon and Sun - refer to what John saw in Revelation with the "signs in the Heavens" - the sun and moon are mentioned with them.

Oh, and you forgot about the marking of seasons.

Those are END TIMES signs Neb...nothing to do with SIGNS and Seasons in Genesis.

I was referring to "signs" by the way you described them.

The "woman" and the "dragon" are constellations in the heavens. The descriptions of the woman with the sun and the moon describe the positions of these with regards to that constellation at the time John saw the events occurring. Something like this.

[nebula]

"If I have more time to look it up I'll post it later, but I found out some interesting information about those two constellations."

 

Kool, go ahead and post it.  When I first came across that JOB passage and the significance it floored me 

OK.

 

Orion

       

The constellation (Job 9:9; Job 38:31-32; Amos 5:8). Kecil, "a fool" or "wicked one." The Arabs represent Orion as a mighty man, the Assyrian Nimrod, who rebelled presumptuously against Jehovah, and was chained to the sky as a punishment; for its rising is at the stormy season. (See NIMROD.) Sabaism or worship of the heavenly hosts and hero worship were blended in his person. The three bright stars which form Orion's girdle never change their relative positions. "Canst thou loose the bands of Orion?" is God's challenge to self sufficient man; i.e., canst thou loose the bonds by which he is chained to the sky?

        The language is adapted to the current conceptions (just as we use the mythological names of constellations without adopting the myths), but with this significant difference that whereas those pagan nations represented Orion glorified in the sky the Hebrew view him as a chained rebel, not with belt, but in "bands." Orion is visible longer and is 17 degrees higher in the Syrian sky than in ours. Rabbis Isaac, Israel, and Jonah identified Hebrew Kesil with Arabic Sohail, Sirius, or Canopus.

 

http://www.bible-history.com/faussets/O/Orion/

 

Grrr ... I recall finding a source with a better explanation of the Pleiades than what this site gives, but now I can't find it. Argh!

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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OK, but I still disagree with you. As I stated, miracles occur when God performs outside of our physical laws.

After all, what physical laws explain or enable the Nile to turn to blood, the Red Sea to part, the sun to stand still, a donkey talking with a human voice, and axe heading floating when a stick was thrown in the water, water turned to wine, blind eyes seeing, bread and fish multiplied, a paralyzed man walking, etc?

 

Woe Woe Woe....Something is getting lost in translation here.  HE is Sovereign...I never said that these were normal occurrences and in conformance with Physical LAWS.  I'm saying for example the Whole of Creation Week starting with Gen1:1 (The 1st Law went out the door) and the 2nd LAW was MIA for the Whole Week.  SOOOO....you see where I'm going here?? ....all bets are off with the Speed of Light.  That's My Point.

 

 

Then I am clearly not understanding what you mean by the laws not being fixed then but fixed now if God can still do as He did then.

 

We're definitely lost.  See response above.  GOD is Sovereign He can do as HE wishes

 

And this is why I think we are missing something when we restrict our understanding to a 144-hour creation and try to make sense out of it this way. There are things that don't fit into place, and this is one of them. 

 

 

Woe Woe Woe there....You act like my inability to answer unanswerable questions Precludes the Fact of a 6 Day Creation???  You went from A to Z quite quick don't you think?  Please provide B-Y??

 

 

This makes it sound as if you are saying God had to create light before He could be light?

 

WHAT?  Neb, I haven't a clue where that come from.  HE SAID "Let there be Light".....I'm Saying HE can Control HIS OWN LIGHT

 

 

The "woman" and the "dragon" are constellations in the heavens. The descriptions of the woman with the sun and the moon describe the positions of these with regards to that constellation at the time John saw the events occurring.

 

I'm not following you here Neb.  Again, I'm not talking about "SIGNS" in the Sun, Moon, and Stars in Revelation....I'm pretty sure that's not the "SIGNS" Purpose and Role established in Genesis.

[nebula]

 

OK, but I still disagree with you. As I stated, miracles occur when God performs outside of our physical laws.

After all, what physical laws explain or enable the Nile to turn to blood, the Red Sea to part, the sun to stand still, a donkey talking with a human voice, and axe heading floating when a stick was thrown in the water, water turned to wine, blind eyes seeing, bread and fish multiplied, a paralyzed man walking, etc?

 Woe Woe Woe....Something is getting lost in translation here.  HE is Sovereign...I never said that these were normal occurrences and in conformance with Physical LAWS.  I'm saying for example the Whole of Creation Week starting with Gen1:1 (The 1st Law went out the door) and the 2nd LAW was MIA for the Whole Week.  SOOOO....you see where I'm going here?? ....all bets are off with the Speed of Light.  That's My Point.

 

We've been down that road before - I read Day 1 to begin with God saying, "Let there be light."

If God is light, I fail to understand why He had to create it. And if God is all that there was before He created anything, where did the darkness come from?

Whatever answers you gave for these didn't make sense to me before, and I doubt they will make any more sense now.

As Sheniy said: "Using scripture as evidence doesn't really work if your intended audience doesn't agree with your interpretation of that Scripture."

And that is where we are stuck.