THE RESTRAINER

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

 

If Satan holds back Satan, his kingdom is divided. In ChristMontana Marv

Exactly! My emphasis is that satan is holding back the exposure of the antichrist. Its got absolutely nothing to do with Satan holding back Satan, and everything to do with Stan trying to keep a secret for as long as possible. I don't know where you get "Satan holds back Satan" from my opening post.

Sorry to get in on this late, but I'm in now.

I'm not feeling your interpretation here of satan holding back the antichrist. Not one bit my brother. Hmmmm

 

 

 

We all have different views. Would you tend to trust the bible ... or your feelings?  I believe a biblical argument is the best for these forums, not feelings based impressions. Is there anything within the verses themselves that I am interpreting incorrectly, if not its entirely possible your "feelings" are based on preconceived impressions. I believe Satan holds back his exposure.   The chapter is a contrast between secretiveness and a revealing:

For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.  And then the lawless one will be revealed

 

 

 

I agree, my feelings by them self don't mean that much, but when based on 30 years of research and reading God's word, then they mean something.

 

I didn't bother going into any explanation because I saw many have already been given to you. If you aren't convinced with what you read, you won't be convinced with what I write, so I didn't think it necessary to be superfluous on this discussion.

 

 

 

In these debates, I try to have a good biblical answer for every point discussed. If I am unable to return with a good answer, then its time to reconsider. I cant recall any good points here. Does my view contradict text, context, Greek, order of events?  

 

In Rev 12, isn't Satan removed from heaven 3.5 years before the second coming? This results in 3.5 years of wrath on earth. This is the exact same moment the antichrist comes to power for 42 months according to Rev 13. And this is when the restrainer is removed according to 2 thess 2.   I think the dispensational view may confuse the order of events, that is why people are not seeing that Satan's fall is the same moment as the antichrist's revealing.

 

 

 

 

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This results in 3.5 years of wrath on earth. This is the exact same moment the antichrist comes to power for 42 months according to Rev 13. And this is when the restrainer is removed according to 2 thess 2.

 

How can the AC come to power/revealed @ the abomination of desolation (3 1/2 years to Second Coming of Christ) when "he" is the one that "confirms the covenant" @ the beginning of the 70th week?

 

(Daniel 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

 

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.  {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

 

And according to the above verse the sequence of events is:  The "Restrainer" is removed then "that Wicked" (the AC) be revealed. Hence, the "Restrainer" must be removed "prior" to the 70th Week of Daniel  (See: above).......so that then the AC can be revealed and confirm the covenant to start the 70th Week. 

 

Moreover, don't you think that he (the AC) would need some time to climb the political ranks to be in a position to "confirm a Covenant"?

 

Unless you subscribe to satan having the capacity for "Fore-knowledge" (provide Scriptural Support), to have him (the AC) in a position to make that covenant.

 

GOD'S in control!

[ARGOSY]

 

This results in 3.5 years of wrath on earth. This is the exact same moment the antichrist comes to power for 42 months according to Rev 13. And this is when the restrainer is removed according to 2 thess 2.

 

How can the AC come to power/revealed @ the abomination of desolation (3 1/2 years to Second Coming of Christ) when "he" is the one that "confirms the covenant" @ the beginning of the 70th week?

 

(Daniel 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

 

 

Even if the antichrist does confirm a covenant, this isn't the event described in 2 Thessalonians 2. When the antichrist is revealed in 2 Thess 2:4, he is described as one who exalts himself above all gods.  Then in verse 8-11 we see his appearing associated with lying wonders and deception. This is all very similar to the descriptions contained in Rev 13:12-14 where all worship him, and he comes to power amidst great wonders and deception. Rev 13 says he has authority for 42 months. (3.5 years). It just so happens that the descriptions of the abomination in Daniel 9, and Daniel 12 also are followed by 3.5 years until the end.

also the "little horn" of Daniel 7:25-27 also has power for only 3.5 years until the end.

So there is consistency in the bible, the appearance of the abomination in Jerusalem occurs at the same moment as the appearance of the antichrist in Jerusalem amidst wonders and deception and there are only 3.5 years left. This fits in with the timing of the fall of Satan, which is also followed by 3.5 years until the end. All occur at the same time.

 

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.  {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

 

And according to the above verse the sequence of events is:  The "Restrainer" is removed then "that Wicked" (the AC) be revealed. Hence, the "Restrainer" must be removed "prior" to the 70th Week of Daniel  (See: above).......so that then the AC can be revealed and confirm the covenant to start the 70th Week. 

 

I disagree, the antichrist is revealed in great wonders in Jerusalem. This is the abomination, not the peace treaty. This is the mid trib event when the antichrist is revealed, not a pre-trib event. (maybe he signs a peace treaty, but no-one is sure who  the antichrist is, or which peace treaty is the biblical one, he only has 42 months of power according to Rev 13, he doesn't have 7 years of power.). 

 

Moreover, don't you think that he (the AC) would need some time to climb the political ranks to be in a position to "confirm a Covenant"?

 

 

Unless you subscribe to satan having the capacity for "Fore-knowledge" (provide Scriptural Support), to have him (the AC) in a position to make that covenant.

I don't follow this point.I'm referring to the last 3.5 years, you seem to be referring to a time before the 7 year tribulation, I'm not sure why. Yes the antichrist is around, but not yet revealed. Its not a matter of foreknowledge by Satan, but foreknowledge of God.

 

 

 

 

GOD'S in control!

 

 

True!

[ARGOSY]

 

They lost their place in heaven and lost a battle. And Satan was cast down to earth. Its the moment of casting down to earth that I equate with Satan being taken out of the way. In his heavenly place he was in the way, accusing the brethren, then the church overcomes him by preaching the word to all nations (our testimony) and Satan is removed. Because he is removed he comes to earth in full wrath and is EXPOSED, his pawn the antichrist is REVEALED. This occurs for 3.5 years, a huge clue that we are referring to the tribulation period, which is known in 2 Thessalonians 2 as a short period of Satan's deception on earth. Bingo! we have a match!

 

Satan was removed from the pretense of God, not from all of heaven. IF what you say is true, then the following scripture would have to be a lie.

 

Ephesians 6:10-13

Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

 

The Greek word for what is called "heavenly places" is ἐπουράνιος - epouranios (G2032) which basically means:

• existing in heaven
  • things that take place in heaven
  • the heavenly regions
    • heaven itself, the abode of God and angels
    • the lower heavens, of the stars
    • the heavens, of the clouds
  • the heavenly temple or sanctuary
• of heavenly origin or nature

I suggest that the heavenly places are the lower heavens, or the clouds above the earth. Still, they have not lost their place in the heavens, as the word states, just the heavenly temple or sanctuary - the presence of God.

 

Now we have a match!

 

 

Onelight, you have made this point already about Satan being in heavenly places, and I agreed with you, so I don't know why you are bringing it up again when we have already discussed this. Yes I completely agree that Satan is currently in heavenly places. Yet Rev 12 clearly says that in the future he will be removed from that place by the church, for 3.5 years of wrath on earth. So I am in no manner whatsoever contradicting Ephesians 6. But you seem to be contradicting Rev 12 , when you insisted in an earlier post that Satan goes directly from heavenly places to the bottomless pit at the second coming. 

 

The correct order of events are:

1) currently in heavenly places (as per your Ephesians 6 quote)

2) the church overcomes him, and the archangel Michael throws him down to earth, he loses his heavenly place (Rev 12)

3)  3.5 years of wrath on earth (Rev 12)

4) the second coming and Satan is thrown into the pit for 1000 years.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

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Even if the antichrist does confirm a covenant, this isn't the event described in 2 Thessalonians 2.

 

That's correct, it's described in Daniel 9:27.  He has to confirm the covenant First to break it.

 

Rev 13 says he has authority for 42 months. (3.5 years). It just so happens that the descriptions of the abomination in Daniel 9, and Daniel 12 also are followed by 3.5 years until the end.

also the "little horn" of Daniel 7:25-27 also has power for only 3.5 years until the end.

 

Yes because it's the same "guy" and same event.

 

 

So there is consistency in the bible, the appearance of the abomination in Jerusalem occurs at the same moment as the appearance of the antichrist

 

Well he has to "appear" to then confirm the covenant to be able to break it and stand in the Holy Place 3 1/2 years later.

 

 

(maybe he signs a peace treaty, but no-one is sure who  the antichrist is, or which peace treaty is the biblical one, he only has 42 months of power according to Rev 13,

 

So you're saying the AC signs kinda of a Clandestine Hush Hush Peace Treaty or Covenant for 7 years (that nobody knows about in the Powder Keg Capitol of the World) then everybody worships him post Abomination of Desolation?

 

 

I don't follow this point.I'm referring to the last 3.5 years, you seem to be referring to a time before the 7 year tribulation, I'm not sure why.

 

Let me explain it to you....

 

(Daniel 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

 

See the "and he"?  That means "he" will.  That means "he's" not gonna pop out of thin air and then Confirm a Covenant.  When "he" Confirms the Covenant that starts the 70th Week of Daniel.  He would have to be someone of some importance/relevance on the World Stage @ that point....not just any Joe Shmoe.

 

 

It's also a good possibility that this event (Covenant) is in response or post Gog/Magog Invasion (Ez 38).  But that's another story.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

 

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Even if the antichrist does confirm a covenant, this isn't the event described in 2 Thessalonians 2.

 

That's correct, it's described in Daniel 9:27.  He has to confirm the covenant First to break it.

 

Rev 13 says he has authority for 42 months. (3.5 years). It just so happens that the descriptions of the abomination in Daniel 9, and Daniel 12 also are followed by 3.5 years until the end.

also the "little horn" of Daniel 7:25-27 also has power for only 3.5 years until the end.

 

Yes because it's the same "guy" and same event.

 

 

So there is consistency in the bible, the appearance of the abomination in Jerusalem occurs at the same moment as the appearance of the antichrist

 

Well he has to "appear" to then confirm the covenant to be able to break it and stand in the Holy Place 3 1/2 years later.

 

 

(maybe he signs a peace treaty, but no-one is sure who  the antichrist is, or which peace treaty is the biblical one, he only has 42 months of power according to Rev 13,

 

So you're saying the AC signs kinda of a Clandestine Hush Hush Peace Treaty or Covenant for 7 years (that nobody knows about in the Powder Keg Capitol of the World) then everybody worships him post Abomination of Desolation?

 

 

I don't follow this point.I'm referring to the last 3.5 years, you seem to be referring to a time before the 7 year tribulation, I'm not sure why.

 

Let me explain it to you....

 

(Daniel 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

 

See the "and he"?  That means "he" will.  That means "he's" not gonna pop out of thin air and then Confirm a Covenant.  When "he" Confirms the Covenant that starts the 70th Week of Daniel.  He would have to be someone of some importance/relevance on the World Stage @ that point....not just any Joe Shmoe.

 

 

It's also a good possibility that this event (Covenant) is in response or post Gog/Magog Invasion (Ez 38).  But that's another story.

 

 

 

Ok I see what you are saying. What I am saying is that the "appearance" of the antichrist in context in 2 Thess 2 is clearly mid-trib.  Its a dramtic event where he declares himself God and there are deceiving signs and wonders. If you place the rapture there, just before that public  appearance, then that is a mid-trib rapture. If you have a futuristic view of the peace treaty of Daniel 9:27 I respect that, but then the parties involved or the peace treaty cannot be clear enough to definitely identify the antichrist, because the antichrist is only revealed 3.5 years later at this massive "deceiving wonders" event according to 2 Thess 2. So your view has to incorporate both concepts, a peace treaty, then 3.5 years later a revealing. If you confuse the revealing with the peace treaty this will make your view inconsistent with the bible. So he wont exactly "pop up out of thin air" but its entirely possible that he wont be clearly identified during the peace treaty.

 

Just think of Daniel's "decree". Daniel wrote about the decree a few years before the decree was issued. Now a few kings issued decrees , possibly 3 decrees were issued. We don't know if any of Daniel's peers ever accepted a certain decree as the one spoken of by Daniel, even now there is debate on when Daniel's decree was issued to start the 70 sevens period of Daniel 9. Sp its possible that a prophesied event occurs, but is only subsequently identified. The important aspect of the end-times is the "great display" of the appearance of the antichrist, there is absolutely no emphasis on the "peace treaty" in the NT and its therefore not an event that is important to identify.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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What I am saying is that the "appearance" of the antichrist in context in 2 Thess 2 is clearly mid-trib.

 

Yes, that's why you compare Scripture with Scripture for detail, GOD is very Precise.  In this specific case, we compare Daniel 9:27.....especially after the LORD said to do so....

 

(Matthew 24:15) " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,  (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"

 

If you place the rapture there, just before that public  appearance, then that is a mid-trib rapture.

 

Yes, I do not....no Scripture Support for this view; and in fact, it violates the Doctrine of Imminence.

 

 

but then the parties involved or the peace treaty cannot be clear enough to definitely identify the antichrist, because the antichrist is only revealed 3.5 years later at this massive "deceiving wonders" event according to 2 Thess 2.

 

What Parties?  Who said it can't be clear enough to identify the antichrist?  Daniel says "he".....

 

(Daniel 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

 

 

If you have a futuristic view of the peace treaty of Daniel 9:27

 

Well yes it's Prophecy.  Is there another view?

 

So your view has to incorporate both concepts, a peace treaty, then 3.5 years later a revealing.

 

Yes, it matches perfectly with GOD'S View....

 

(Daniel 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

 

 

Just think of Daniel's "decree". Daniel wrote about the decree a few years before the decree was issued. Now a few kings issued decrees , possibly 3 decrees were issued. We don't know if any of Daniel's peers ever accepted a certain decree as the one spoken of by Daniel

 

You're confused, This has nothing to do with 70th Week or Daniel 9:27.  The decrees you're speaking of have to do with the 69 Weeks which is Christ's Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem (Specifically Daniel 9:25)....

 

(Daniel 9:25) "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

 

The confusion with the "decrees" lack attention to detail.  As highlighted above, this decree said to: "restore and to build Jerusalem", "the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

 

All the "decrees" that you are speaking of talk about building Re-Building "The Temple"  not the **City**.  There is only ONE decree that said to do exactly that....

 

The decree to rebuild Jerusalem was ordered by Artaxerses Longimanus 14 March, 445 BC.  See: The Coming Prince by Sir Walter Anderson (Knighted and Head of Scotland Yard).

 

 

Daniel's peers

 

Who are Daniel's Peers?

 

The important aspect of the end-times is the "great display" of the appearance of the antichrist, there is absolutely no emphasis on the "peace treaty" in the NT and its therefore not an event that is important to identify.

 

Ahhh, I think I see what you are doing.  You try to cast doubt on Daniels Prophecy, Arguably the Greatest Prophetic Book Ever Written, to then accomplish your goal.

 

The key to end time Prophecy is......

 

(Daniel 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

 

and Christ even pointed you to it....

 

(Matthew 24:15) " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,  (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"

[ARGOSY]

 

 

 

 

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What I am saying is that the "appearance" of the antichrist in context in 2 Thess 2 is clearly mid-trib.

 

Yes, that's why you compare Scripture with Scripture for detail, GOD is very Precise.  In this specific case, we compare Daniel 9:27.....especially after the LORD said to do so....

 

(Matthew 24:15) " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,  (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"

 

If you place the rapture there, just before that public  appearance, then that is a mid-trib rapture.

 

Yes, I do not....no Scripture Support for this view; and in fact, it violates the Doctrine of Imminence.

 

 

but then the parties involved or the peace treaty cannot be clear enough to definitely identify the antichrist, because the antichrist is only revealed 3.5 years later at this massive "deceiving wonders" event according to 2 Thess 2.

 

What Parties?  Who said it can't be clear enough to identify the antichrist?  Daniel says "he".....

 

(Daniel 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

 

 

If you have a futuristic view of the peace treaty of Daniel 9:27

 

Well yes it's Prophecy.  Is there another view?

 

So your view has to incorporate both concepts, a peace treaty, then 3.5 years later a revealing.

 

Yes, it matches perfectly with GOD'S View....

 

(Daniel 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

 

 

Just think of Daniel's "decree". Daniel wrote about the decree a few years before the decree was issued. Now a few kings issued decrees , possibly 3 decrees were issued. We don't know if any of Daniel's peers ever accepted a certain decree as the one spoken of by Daniel

 

You're confused, This has nothing to do with 70th Week or Daniel 9:27.  The decrees you're speaking of have to do with the 69 Weeks which is Christ's Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem (Specifically Daniel 9:25)....

 

(Daniel 9:25) "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

 

The confusion with the "decrees" lack attention to detail.  As highlighted above, this decree said to: "restore and to build Jerusalem", "the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

 

All the "decrees" that you are speaking of talk about building Re-Building "The Temple"  not the **City**.  There is only ONE decree that said to do exactly that....

 

The decree to rebuild Jerusalem was ordered by Artaxerses Longimanus 14 March, 445 BC.  See: The Coming Prince by Sir Walter Anderson (Knighted and Head of Scotland Yard).

 

 

Daniel's peers

 

Who are Daniel's Peers?

 

The important aspect of the end-times is the "great display" of the appearance of the antichrist, there is absolutely no emphasis on the "peace treaty" in the NT and its therefore not an event that is important to identify.

 

Ahhh, I think I see what you are doing.  You try to cast doubt on Daniels Prophecy, Arguably the Greatest Prophetic Book Ever Written, to then accomplish your goal.

 

The key to end time Prophecy is......

 

(Daniel 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

 

and Christ even pointed you to it....

 

(Matthew 24:15) " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,  (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"

 

 

 

Hi Enoch.

 

I can assure you I'm not trying to cast doubt on Daniel's prophecy. I love that prophecy, I just don't want to derail this thread with that issue, but would love to discuss this with you on another thread one day. Only when these current discussions quieten down a bit. But I do see the relevance to this discussion about the restrainer.

 

Yes for sure, the first half of Daniel 9:27 is very important, about a peace treaty.  That verse does not clearly state that the one who confirms the treaty will be publicly identified.

 

Yet 2 Thess 2  referring to the antichrist's appearance, is very clear that is when he is identified. This is the reason I can more easily associate his public exposure with the abomination of Daniel 9:27, and not the peace treaty.  

 

My whole point about the decree was just another biblical example of a prophesied event that is difficult to identify after it has occurred. I agree the decree has no bearing on the 70th week. My mention of the decree is not essential to this discussion.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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That verse does not clearly state that the one who confirms the treaty will be publicly identified.

 

Well Scripture doesn't state the The LORD exists in @ Least 5 Dimensions but when HE "In The Flesh", can enter and leave a 6 sided room without anyone noticing....it's quite clear.

 

Same concept here.....it's intuitive.

 

 

My whole point about the decree was just another biblical example of a prophesied event that is difficult to identify after it has occurred.

 

Difficult to identify for who?  People living @ the time?  It was 445 BC Argosy....about 700 years before paper, not exactly the pinnacle of "just in time" inventory or mass communication.

 

Nehemiah knew it...... since the decree was given to him.  Did The Jewish Hierarchy put it together after Daniel's Prophecy?  Don't know, but the LORD held them accountable for it.  See Destruction of Jerusalem 70 AD and Reason for it in Luke.

[Matt36]

I beleive the restrainer is Michael the archangel as described in Daniel 12:1-2

 

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

² And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

 

 

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That verse does not clearly state that the one who confirms the treaty will be publicly identified.

 

Well Scripture doesn't state the The LORD exists in @ Least 5 Dimensions but when HE "In The Flesh", can enter and leave a 6 sided room without anyone noticing....it's quite clear.

 

Same concept here.....it's intuitive.

 

 

My whole point about the decree was just another biblical example of a prophesied event that is difficult to identify after it has occurred.

 

Difficult to identify for who?  People living @ the time?  It was 445 BC Argosy....about 700 years before paper, not exactly the pinnacle of "just in time" inventory or mass communication.

 

Nehemiah knew it...... since the decree was given to him.  Did The Jewish Hierarchy put it together after Daniel's Prophecy?  Don't know, but the LORD held them accountable for it.  See Destruction of Jerusalem 70 AD and Reason for it in Luke.

 

 

 

So you are arguing from "intuition" that the antichrist is revealed 3.5 years earlier at the peace treaty, when 2 Thess 2 says he is revealed when he declares himself a god, amidst signs and deceiving wonders.    This is the reason I find it difficult to discuss these biblical issues with you. You seem to regard your preconceived/taught doctrine as superior to the actual word of God.

 

As for the decree, some regard the decree as that of Artaxerxes in 458BC. So there is no consensus in the church regarding the decree that starts the 70 sevens. the same may occur when the peace treaty is signed, the bible does not indicate how obvious this event will be.

 

And yet regarding the appearance of the antichrist 3.5 years later, this event is the most obvious event and the bible is clear this event accompanied by signs and deceiving wonders, so it is an unmissable event. So I will still have to agree to disagree with you that the antichrist is revealed 3.5 years before the bible says he will be revealed. Let the scriptures take preference, not our personal doctrines.