Matthew 24, for Jews or for Christians?

[Salty]

 

 

 

For the so called early church fathers, we know, even from scripture that some were leaving the sound teachings of the apostles while the apostles were still alive. The so-called early church fathers were in the shift from a Jewish based church to a Gentile based church and theyhad a lot of issues, including a leaning towards anti-semitism which grew greater. Very early on, accusing the Jewish people of Deicide and claiming 'replacement theology/supersession', the church had replaced Israel.  

 

The Epistle of Barnabus was the first to accuse the Jews of Deicide. Justin Martyr accused the Jews of killing Christ, and by 150 ce, Replacement Theology was being embraced.

Origen taught that the Jews had permanently forfeited all their covenants, which now belonged to the church (at least the blessings belonged to the church)..

Tertullian said that divine judgement was upon Israel.

By the time of 341, church councils prohibited Christians from celebrating the Sabbath, festivals, and eating with the Jewish people with a focus of extracting anything to do with the Jewish people from any Church practices.

 

So, in my opinion, basing an end times theology on the teachings of the church fathers is highly precarious as these men for the most part, disliked to hated the Jews so would most likely teach that the Jews had lost all Gods promises.

 

 

Yep, that's the basic view the blind Pharisees who rejected Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ had about the early Christian Church, and it continued with unbelieving Jews into later centuries, and is still a lie of Judaism today.

 

 

Well, you just showed your view of Jews and Judaism, and it is not very pretty. So Jews and Judaism are liars.

 

But the truth is, what I wrote is historical, and is based on direct quotes of the people in question.

 

 

No, I showed you my LORD JESUS' view of the false scribes and Pharisees who followed Him around where He went teaching just to try and trap Him with something they could use to MURDER Him for. And I agree with my Lord Jesus Christ with what He taught against them! Clearly He did not give that rebuke to all Jews, for He had Apostles and many disciples of the Jews that heeded Him and believed on Him, as that still is today.

 

And today there still... are false Jews in that category who fight against Christ Jesus and His Church today! And YES, Judaism is a lie, as that is the religious system of those scribes and Pharisees Jesus rebuked, it was their religious system developed in the Babylonian captivity from which came their Babylonian Talmud, which is still their foundation of Judaism, even today.

[Salty]

 

 

Perhaps John saw military helicopters. Perhaps it was an angelic army. How would John have described a helicopter firing missiles? They were killed by FIRE, by SMOKE, and by BRIMSTONE. Trying to make these into words is extremely poor exegesis.

 

 

LAMAD

 

 

Black helicopters maybe? Seen any lately? Hal Lindsey likened those Rev.9 symbols to just about anything and everything military WITHOUT explaining the idea of coming out of their MOUTHS, just as you've done. You've actually mimed Lindsey.

 

You make yourself sound foolish when you say words coming out of mouths is extremely poor exegesis. It shows you've even lost common sense reasoning.

 

Some ignore  what it REALLY says; that the power to kill is in FIRE, BRIMSTONE, and SMOKE and these come from both the mouth AND the tail  . These are not words. It is foolish to ignore the plain and simple words written and attempt to make them say something different. Notice the word KILL. This is speaking of physical death. Seen any dragons lately? It seems they used to blow FIRE and SMOKE. Were they real?  What does John tell us? These "horses" had heads like LIONS. We have never seen such a horse. By the way, have you ever seen a lion talk? They just ROAR. Their roar is harmless. Lions don't try to deceive someone, they try to KILL. John goes on to say "out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone." This is not words, this is something that KILLS.  John goes on; "By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths." So these horses with lion's heads spit fire, smoke and brimstone. These horse are even MORE strange; they have heads in their tails! John writes, "their power is in their ...tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm. I am convinced this is a heavenly army. There are no horses like this on earth. Neither do I think they are helicopters. This is an army sent by God to KILL 1/3 of earth's population. Will they kill at random, or do they have specific targets? John does not tell us.

 

People with little sense try to make this say what it does NOT say, that this is not really physical death, it is deception leading to spiritual death. They are not really killed, they are deceived by WORDS. When anyone takes something written in a literal sense and puts some other meaning to it, it ends up being nonsense. I have no trouble believing this army comes to KILL 1/3 of mankind.

 

LAMAD

 

 

You'll never understand that Rev.9 Scripture during this world. It's not about black helicopters nor WWIII. The early part of Rev.9 already told you those locusts cannot hurt any green thing, nor kill anyone without God's sealing, but only 'sting' those for five months.

 

The time of their main attack upon the world is when that 'king' which is the angel of the bottomless pit appears on earth, the Antichrist, which that shows will be Satan himself, just like the Rev.12:7 forward Scripture also showed us. That timing is on the 6 Trumpet - 2 Woe period, which is TRIBULATION timing, not Armageddon timing.

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

Perhaps John saw military helicopters. Perhaps it was an angelic army. How would John have described a helicopter firing missiles? They were killed by FIRE, by SMOKE, and by BRIMSTONE. Trying to make these into words is extremely poor exegesis.

 

 

LAMAD

 

 

Black helicopters maybe? Seen any lately? Hal Lindsey likened those Rev.9 symbols to just about anything and everything military WITHOUT explaining the idea of coming out of their MOUTHS, just as you've done. You've actually mimed Lindsey.

 

You make yourself sound foolish when you say words coming out of mouths is extremely poor exegesis. It shows you've even lost common sense reasoning.

 

Some ignore  what it REALLY says; that the power to kill is in FIRE, BRIMSTONE, and SMOKE and these come from both the mouth AND the tail  . These are not words. It is foolish to ignore the plain and simple words written and attempt to make them say something different. Notice the word KILL. This is speaking of physical death. Seen any dragons lately? It seems they used to blow FIRE and SMOKE. Were they real?  What does John tell us? These "horses" had heads like LIONS. We have never seen such a horse. By the way, have you ever seen a lion talk? They just ROAR. Their roar is harmless. Lions don't try to deceive someone, they try to KILL. John goes on to say "out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone." This is not words, this is something that KILLS.  John goes on; "By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths." So these horses with lion's heads spit fire, smoke and brimstone. These horse are even MORE strange; they have heads in their tails! John writes, "their power is in their ...tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm. I am convinced this is a heavenly army. There are no horses like this on earth. Neither do I think they are helicopters. This is an army sent by God to KILL 1/3 of earth's population. Will they kill at random, or do they have specific targets? John does not tell us.

 

People with little sense try to make this say what it does NOT say, that this is not really physical death, it is deception leading to spiritual death. They are not really killed, they are deceived by WORDS. When anyone takes something written in a literal sense and puts some other meaning to it, it ends up being nonsense. I have no trouble believing this army comes to KILL 1/3 of mankind.

 

LAMAD

 

 

You'll never understand that Rev.9 Scripture during this world. It's not about black helicopters nor WWIII. The early part of Rev.9 already told you those locusts cannot hurt any green thing, nor kill anyone without God's sealing, but only 'sting' those for five months.

 

The time of their main attack upon the world is when that 'king' which is the angel of the bottomless pit appears on earth, the Antichrist, which that shows will be Satan himself, just like the Rev.12:7 forward Scripture also showed us. That timing is on the 6 Trumpet - 2 Woe period, which is TRIBULATION timing, not Armageddon timing.

 

When these events come to pass, you will see FIRST HAND what John's true meaning was, for you will be left behind. The fifth trumpet is a JUDGMENT from God to torture humans that refuse to repent. Sadly, because it is a worldwide judgment, those left behind will suffer also. These stings are VERY BAD. People will hurt so bad they will want to die - but they cannot. These locusts have ONE PURPOSE: to sting and torture humans. In spite of what others on this forum think, the are NOT the army of the 6th trumpet. Neither do they come when the Antichrist has been revealed. These little beasties show up perhaps a few months to a year before the abomination event, so they come BEFORE the antichrist is revealed.

 

Truthfully, your timing is all mixed up. But then, anyone that thinks John's book must be rearranged has mixed up theory, so of course their timing is mixed up.

 

In the end, I understand these things well, and I find NO NEED to rearrange John's God given chronology.

 

LAMAD

[Salty]

 

 

 

 

Perhaps John saw military helicopters. Perhaps it was an angelic army. How would John have described a helicopter firing missiles? They were killed by FIRE, by SMOKE, and by BRIMSTONE. Trying to make these into words is extremely poor exegesis.

 

 

LAMAD

 

 

Black helicopters maybe? Seen any lately? Hal Lindsey likened those Rev.9 symbols to just about anything and everything military WITHOUT explaining the idea of coming out of their MOUTHS, just as you've done. You've actually mimed Lindsey.

 

You make yourself sound foolish when you say words coming out of mouths is extremely poor exegesis. It shows you've even lost common sense reasoning.

 

Some ignore  what it REALLY says; that the power to kill is in FIRE, BRIMSTONE, and SMOKE and these come from both the mouth AND the tail  . These are not words. It is foolish to ignore the plain and simple words written and attempt to make them say something different. Notice the word KILL. This is speaking of physical death. Seen any dragons lately? It seems they used to blow FIRE and SMOKE. Were they real?  What does John tell us? These "horses" had heads like LIONS. We have never seen such a horse. By the way, have you ever seen a lion talk? They just ROAR. Their roar is harmless. Lions don't try to deceive someone, they try to KILL. John goes on to say "out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone." This is not words, this is something that KILLS.  John goes on; "By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths." So these horses with lion's heads spit fire, smoke and brimstone. These horse are even MORE strange; they have heads in their tails! John writes, "their power is in their ...tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm. I am convinced this is a heavenly army. There are no horses like this on earth. Neither do I think they are helicopters. This is an army sent by God to KILL 1/3 of earth's population. Will they kill at random, or do they have specific targets? John does not tell us.

 

People with little sense try to make this say what it does NOT say, that this is not really physical death, it is deception leading to spiritual death. They are not really killed, they are deceived by WORDS. When anyone takes something written in a literal sense and puts some other meaning to it, it ends up being nonsense. I have no trouble believing this army comes to KILL 1/3 of mankind.

 

LAMAD

 

 

You'll never understand that Rev.9 Scripture during this world. It's not about black helicopters nor WWIII. The early part of Rev.9 already told you those locusts cannot hurt any green thing, nor kill anyone without God's sealing, but only 'sting' those for five months.

 

The time of their main attack upon the world is when that 'king' which is the angel of the bottomless pit appears on earth, the Antichrist, which that shows will be Satan himself, just like the Rev.12:7 forward Scripture also showed us. That timing is on the 6 Trumpet - 2 Woe period, which is TRIBULATION timing, not Armageddon timing.

 

When these events come to pass, you will see FIRST HAND what John's true meaning was, for you will be left behind. The fifth trumpet is a JUDGMENT from God to torture humans that refuse to repent. Sadly, because it is a worldwide judgment, those left behind will suffer also. These stings are VERY BAD. People will hurt so bad they will want to die - but they cannot. These locusts have ONE PURPOSE: to sting and torture humans. In spite of what others on this forum think, the are NOT the army of the 6th trumpet. Neither do they come when the Antichrist has been revealed. These little beasties show up perhaps a few months to a year before the abomination event, so they come BEFORE the antichrist is revealed.

 

Truthfully, your timing is all mixed up. But then, anyone that thinks John's book must be rearranged has mixed up theory, so of course their timing is mixed up.

 

In the end, I understand these things well, and I find NO NEED to rearrange John's God given chronology.

 

LAMAD

 

 

When those events come to pass, you are right, I will... see them, and I will also KNOW what they represent and WHO that Antichrist is when he shows up. But you... will NOT know, because you have not kept to our Lord's Word of Patience.

[Stormcrow]

14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

7) Would you say that is a good hint as to when the end will come?

 

 

Actually, given the context of the entire passage you cited, it does.  The disciples heard Christ tell the religious leaders only hours before that their "house would be left desolate" (Matthew 23:38) and that the "house" to which He was referring was, in fact, the Temple (Matthew 24:1-2).  They clearly associated the end of the age with the destruction of the Temple in their private questioning of Him (Matthew 24:3) and He did not correct them.  Instead, He gave them signs as to when they could expect to see His coming at the end of the age, the last of which is cited above.

 

By the time Paul had written his letters to the Romans and Colossians, Paul wrote that Christ's words in Matthew 24:14 had, indeed, been fulfilled, and he wrote it not once or twice but several times.

 

First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. Romans 1:8 (NIV2011)

 

But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.” Romans 10:18 (NIV2011)

 

but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; Romans 16:26 (NASB)

 

because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel  which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth; Colossians 1:5-6 (NASB)

 

if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. Colossians 1:23 (NASB)

 

The "end" of the Mosaic Age (or covenant, if you will) came in 70 AD with the destruction of the Temple and the city, when the "power of the Holy people was shattered." (Daniel 12:7).  That is what the Olivet Discourse was all about and that is what the entire letter to the seven churches in Asia (Revelation) was all about: the end of one age and the beginning of another.

[Stormcrow]

2 Thessalonians 2:1   Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

 

We are gathered together, at the same time.

 

We are not part of the "we" to whom Paul wrote.  Unless you are a member of that Thessalonian church that lived 2,000 years ago, Paul didn't write this to you, me, or anyone else living now. 

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

 

 

Perhaps John saw military helicopters. Perhaps it was an angelic army. How would John have described a helicopter firing missiles? They were killed by FIRE, by SMOKE, and by BRIMSTONE. Trying to make these into words is extremely poor exegesis.

 

 

LAMAD

 

 

Black helicopters maybe? Seen any lately? Hal Lindsey likened those Rev.9 symbols to just about anything and everything military WITHOUT explaining the idea of coming out of their MOUTHS, just as you've done. You've actually mimed Lindsey.

 

You make yourself sound foolish when you say words coming out of mouths is extremely poor exegesis. It shows you've even lost common sense reasoning.

 

Some ignore  what it REALLY says; that the power to kill is in FIRE, BRIMSTONE, and SMOKE and these come from both the mouth AND the tail  . These are not words. It is foolish to ignore the plain and simple words written and attempt to make them say something different. Notice the word KILL. This is speaking of physical death. Seen any dragons lately? It seems they used to blow FIRE and SMOKE. Were they real?  What does John tell us? These "horses" had heads like LIONS. We have never seen such a horse. By the way, have you ever seen a lion talk? They just ROAR. Their roar is harmless. Lions don't try to deceive someone, they try to KILL. John goes on to say "out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone." This is not words, this is something that KILLS.  John goes on; "By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths." So these horses with lion's heads spit fire, smoke and brimstone. These horse are even MORE strange; they have heads in their tails! John writes, "their power is in their ...tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm. I am convinced this is a heavenly army. There are no horses like this on earth. Neither do I think they are helicopters. This is an army sent by God to KILL 1/3 of earth's population. Will they kill at random, or do they have specific targets? John does not tell us.

 

People with little sense try to make this say what it does NOT say, that this is not really physical death, it is deception leading to spiritual death. They are not really killed, they are deceived by WORDS. When anyone takes something written in a literal sense and puts some other meaning to it, it ends up being nonsense. I have no trouble believing this army comes to KILL 1/3 of mankind.

 

LAMAD

 

 

You'll never understand that Rev.9 Scripture during this world. It's not about black helicopters nor WWIII. The early part of Rev.9 already told you those locusts cannot hurt any green thing, nor kill anyone without God's sealing, but only 'sting' those for five months.

 

The time of their main attack upon the world is when that 'king' which is the angel of the bottomless pit appears on earth, the Antichrist, which that shows will be Satan himself, just like the Rev.12:7 forward Scripture also showed us. That timing is on the 6 Trumpet - 2 Woe period, which is TRIBULATION timing, not Armageddon timing.

 

When these events come to pass, you will see FIRST HAND what John's true meaning was, for you will be left behind. The fifth trumpet is a JUDGMENT from God to torture humans that refuse to repent. Sadly, because it is a worldwide judgment, those left behind will suffer also. These stings are VERY BAD. People will hurt so bad they will want to die - but they cannot. These locusts have ONE PURPOSE: to sting and torture humans. In spite of what others on this forum think, the are NOT the army of the 6th trumpet. Neither do they come when the Antichrist has been revealed. These little beasties show up perhaps a few months to a year before the abomination event, so they come BEFORE the antichrist is revealed.

 

Truthfully, your timing is all mixed up. But then, anyone that thinks John's book must be rearranged has mixed up theory, so of course their timing is mixed up.

 

In the end, I understand these things well, and I find NO NEED to rearrange John's God given chronology.

 

LAMAD

 

 

When those events come to pass, you are right, I will... see them, and I will also KNOW what they represent and WHO that Antichrist is when he shows up. But you... will NOT know, because you have not kept to our Lord's Word of Patience.

 

You are mistaken: I will be in heaven enjoying my mansion and rejoicing over God's amazing plan of salvation. God has not and will not set an appointment for you with His wrath. Why then do you insist on setting your OWN appointment? Is that wise?

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

 

2 Thessalonians 2:1   Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

 

We are gathered together, at the same time.

 

We are not part of the "we" to whom Paul wrote.  Unless you are a member of that Thessalonian church that lived 2,000 years ago, Paul didn't write this to you, me, or anyone else living now. 

 

Good try, but it won't work. Paul's gathering is still in our future, so Paul's "we" and the "brethren" and the "our" is referencing the entire body of Christ on earth. It should be plain that the fulness of the Gentiles has not yet come in.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

 

14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

7) Would you say that is a good hint as to when the end will come?

 

 

Actually, given the context of the entire passage you cited, it does.  The disciples heard Christ tell the religious leaders only hours before that their "house would be left desolate" (Matthew 23:38) and that the "house" to which He was referring was, in fact, the Temple (Matthew 24:1-2).  They clearly associated the end of the age with the destruction of the Temple in their private questioning of Him (Matthew 24:3) and He did not correct them.  Instead, He gave them signs as to when they could expect to see His coming at the end of the age, the last of which is cited above.

 

By the time Paul had written his letters to the Romans and Colossians, Paul wrote that Christ's words in Matthew 24:14 had, indeed, been fulfilled, and he wrote it not once or twice but several times.

 

First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. Romans 1:8 (NIV2011)

 

But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.” Romans 10:18 (NIV2011)

 

but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; Romans 16:26 (NASB)

 

because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel  which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth; Colossians 1:5-6 (NASB)

 

if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. Colossians 1:23 (NASB)

 

The "end" of the Mosaic Age (or covenant, if you will) came in 70 AD with the destruction of the Temple and the city, when the "power of the Holy people was shattered." (Daniel 12:7).  That is what the Olivet Discourse was all about and that is what the entire letter to the seven churches in Asia (Revelation) was all about: the end of one age and the beginning of another.

 

That theory sounds good to people that do not know the scriptures. For those that DO know, there is yet remaining the FINAL or 70th week of Daniel's 70 weeks. What happened in 70 AD did not fulfill the prophecies of the end. You mentioned "the end." What exactly is "the end?" It is when Jesus returns to earth. However, there are other "ends" before that. For example, the end of the church age will come at the pretrib rapture of the church. That ends the parenthesis of the Gentile church that God inserted between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel. At the 7th trumpet the 1000 year period we are living in ENDS, and the new Millennial begins. Then, at the 7th vial poured out, the 70th week ends. Yet Jesus remains in heaven for the marriage and supper. Finally, after the marriage and supper Jesus returns to earth WITH His bride, and armies of angels to the battle of Armageddon. That is the END Jesus was speaking of.

 

LAMAD

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

 

For the so called early church fathers, we know, even from scripture that some were leaving the sound teachings of the apostles while the apostles were still alive. The so-called early church fathers were in the shift from a Jewish based church to a Gentile based church and theyhad a lot of issues, including a leaning towards anti-semitism which grew greater. Very early on, accusing the Jewish people of Deicide and claiming 'replacement theology/supersession', the church had replaced Israel.  

 

The Epistle of Barnabus was the first to accuse the Jews of Deicide. Justin Martyr accused the Jews of killing Christ, and by 150 ce, Replacement Theology was being embraced.

Origen taught that the Jews had permanently forfeited all their covenants, which now belonged to the church (at least the blessings belonged to the church)..

Tertullian said that divine judgement was upon Israel.

By the time of 341, church councils prohibited Christians from celebrating the Sabbath, festivals, and eating with the Jewish people with a focus of extracting anything to do with the Jewish people from any Church practices.

 

So, in my opinion, basing an end times theology on the teachings of the church fathers is highly precarious as these men for the most part, disliked to hated the Jews so would most likely teach that the Jews had lost all Gods promises.

 

 

Yep, that's the basic view the blind Pharisees who rejected Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ had about the early Christian Church, and it continued with unbelieving Jews into later centuries, and is still a lie of Judaism today.

 

 

Well, you just showed your view of Jews and Judaism, and it is not very pretty. So Jews and Judaism are liars.

 

But the truth is, what I wrote is historical, and is based on direct quotes of the people in question.

 

 

No, I showed you my LORD JESUS' view of the false scribes and Pharisees who followed Him around where He went teaching just to try and trap Him with something they could use to MURDER Him for. And I agree with my Lord Jesus Christ with what He taught against them! Clearly He did not give that rebuke to all Jews, for He had Apostles and many disciples of the Jews that heeded Him and believed on Him, as that still is today.

 

And today there still... are false Jews in that category who fight against Christ Jesus and His Church today! And YES, Judaism is a lie, as that is the religious system of those scribes and Pharisees Jesus rebuked, it was their religious system developed in the Babylonian captivity from which came their Babylonian Talmud, which is still their foundation of Judaism, even today.

 

 

Once again, an anti-Jewish understanding. You fail to recognize that the NT mentions Pharisees who believed on Jesus, but instead group them all with a misunderstanding. You neglect or do not know that Jesus agreed with some of the writings of the Pharisees, and even quoted some of the Pharasaical writings. It was only some of the fence around the law which neglected or contradicted some of scripture which Jesus came against strongly.

 

Judaism is not entirely a lie, as it is based on the OT, which is the words of God. So if you make the blanket statement that Judaism is a lie, then you are calling God a liar too since He gave the OT.

 

What you are showing are much the same prejudices as some of the church fathers. Christianity became to anti-Jewish during the times of the church fathers, too many false statements became a part of some segments of Christianity, including Replacement Theology and demonizing Jews and Judaism.