iamlamad

Just who is Revelation's "Mystery Babylon" in your thinking?

You are still missing it. 17 Then we, the living ones who remain [on the earth], shall simultaneously be caught up along with [the resurrected dead] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so always (through the eternity of the eternities) we shall be with the Lord! (AmpC) We the living ones: have not passed yet. Heart still pumping. "shall simultaneously be caught up along with [the resurrected dead] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." Is that clear enough? The living will be caught up WITH THE DEAD who were raised first. There may be only microseconds between the dead and the living. Do other translations agree? shall together with them be caught up in the clouds (ASV) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds (BRG) will be caught up together with them in the clouds (CSB) will be taken up into the clouds together with them (CEV) will be gathered up with those who have died (ERV) I could repeat something the same or very similar many more times. Who is "them" that the living are caught up with? The amplified put it best: The rusurrected dead. We are all caught up to Jesus together from just above the ground (30, 40, 100 feet?) up to where Jesus is. "Together" means the resurrected dead who were raised first, to those who are alive and are changed: TOGETHER we are caught up to Jesus. IF there is going to be much time at all between their resurrection and our being caught up, it will be measured in split seconds, seconds or minutes. My guess is, it will all be done at light speed, so all done in less that one second. This is only my opinion. I think you need to study this again.

Hebrews Chapter 6 is also true.

People get "sealed" by an act of their own will. (Whosoever will may come.) Does it not make sense that someone can LEAVE by an act of their own will? The Hebrew's 6 verse is talking about a mature Christian. I agree with you about baby Christians. God will not let go of them. If a mature saint chooses to get out from under the umbrella of Jesus's blood by an act of their own will (the same way they got in) (meaning, they no longer WANT to spend their eternity in heaven), I believe the Hebrew passage fits: God will let them go. Here is a conundrum: God is clear that He cannot and will not allow a thief into heaven. What is a born again person has a lifestyle of stealing? Will God go against His word and allow them in? Or will He stick with His written word? What if that thief just stole something, and then died instantly in a car wreck? They had no time to repent, and it was not their habit to repent anyway? Here is another conundrum: suppose a born again pastor got slapped by His wife, and got angry with her, jumped into his mercedes and sped off, lost control of his car, crashed and died? While he was driving, he was planning on how to get even, so repentance was NOT on his mind. (This really happened!) What is God to do? The Word is very clear that if we won't forgive, then HE won't forgive. What if a pastor was caught in an affair, and His wife refused to forgive....both being born again and sealed with the Holy Spirit. On the 2nd or 3rd day after, she got a gun and killed herself, still with unforgiveness. (This really happened.) God had to send her to hell, because of her unforgiveness. There are almost always exceptions to every story.

I'm going to stick close to what Paul wrote: ...the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds... Then WHEN? I think the answer is obvious: it is immediately. The dead fly up into the air, then those alive and in Christ fly up into the air, and "together" we are caught up to meet Jesus. The point? The dead in Christ are not going to be hanging around in the air waiting for days of those who are alive to be caught up.

Sorry, but it is impossible to fall away when you have never arrived. Do you really think God would force someone to live with Him when they don't WANT to ?

Every scripture must be taken in light of every other. Of course no one can come unless they are drawn by the Holy Spirit. A very short sermon: Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. God wills EVERYONE to come. He does not one to perish. There is a flip side to this verse: whosoever won't come, won't get what Jesus offers: eternal life.

Heb. 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. I did not write this.

I grew up with one older brother that was baptist, and another that was Wesleyan - so each was on opposite sides of this argument. It took me many years to sort it out, but now I have it: God would NEVER force someone to live in heaven with Him of they decide they don't WANT to. We get born again by an act of our will. But also by an act of our will, we can CHOOSE to leave. It is as simple as that. A well known preacher once had a vision. He saw a married couple that he knew. He saw a demon keep sitting on the woman's shoulder whispering to her, "you're very beautiful. You are wasting your life here in this church. You are a great singer. I can make you rich! Blah blah blah." As the preacher watched in the vision, the woman began to desire what the demon was offering. He saw the demon move inside the woman. God then spoke in the vision and said that before she was being oppressed, but now she was obsessed. The preacher ask God if He wanted him to cast out the demon. God said, just watch. As the preacher kept watching the vision, the woman left her husband, and got into sin. But her conscience was bothering her. That was the Holy Spirit trying to woo her back. Finally one day she screamed at God and said, "leave me alone!" He saw that the demon went from her soul into her spirit. God said, now she is not obsessed, she is now possessed. Then God said she was lost forever. The preacher said that he would not believe this unless God could prove it with scripture. God took him to Hebrews 6. God explained, if she had been being obsessed by the demon at the moment she screamed for God to leave her alone, HE, God, would have forgiven her. But God said, she was not being oppressed by the demon at that moment. It was ALL HER decision. Read the first few verses of Hebrews 6. IF they turn away....what happens then?

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Many verses have an unwritten "flip side." This verse tells us for His second coming, that He is coming for those looking for Him. It leaves unsaid what will happen to those NOT looking for Him or looking for His coming. 14 times (if I counted right) He told us to WATCH for His coming. Question: What if someone is confused in doctrine and is watching for the Antichrist Beast to come first? I hope you right.

You write myths.

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. Which did Paul write first: the rapture or the Day of the Lord? 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Which did Paul write first: the rapture or wrath? Is the great crowd in Revelation chapter 7 written before chapter 19, or after chapter 19 (Christ's coming to Armageddon.)

OSAS argument has to do with whether or not one is always born again, of after being born again they can somehow become NOT born again. This is a different subject. We are not talking about whether or not someone is or will remain born again. We are talking about whether or not all born again people will be eligible for the rapture. I think you will agree that someone that is born again can be a born again THIEF. Then can have sticky fingers. They could also be a born again LIAR. Do you agree? Now we have a different question: will someone that is a LIAR (having lies they have not repented of) be eligible for the rapture? Will someone that is a THIEF (they stole without repenting) be elibible? Will a luke warm born again person be eligible? Will someone NOT LOOKING FOR Jesus when He comes be eligible? I am guessing there are going to be born again people LEFT BEHIND. It is only a guess.

You are only 1900 and some odd years off!

I disagree. I think it is possible.

You are free to believe anything. God allows us that freedom. Paul, the only writer of the NT that had revealed knowledge of the rapture, wrote that the church would be raptured before God begins His wrath. That would be just before the 6th seal start of the Day of His wrath. John confirms that in Revelation 7. God will NOT ALLOW any "hurt" on the earth until He sees the 144,000 sealed and sees the church safely in heaven.

You are attempting to apply a scripture pointed to the Jews, to the church. Sorry, but that does not work. Always remember, it is the 70th Week OF DANIEL, not the 70th week of Paul or Peter.

You only think John does not say this. He doesn't—in so many words. But when one studies the seals, trumpets and bowls, the 7th seal is the only place that makes sense for the start of the 70th week. Where do you propose to begin the week?

You are just ignorant of pre-trib scriptures. Paul teaches us that the rapture comes just before Wrath. That would be at the 6th seal. John teaches us that the "tribulation" will not begin until the 7th seal. Since 6 always comes before 7 in counting, millions believe in a pre-trib rapture. My guess is, you don't know where the rapture or where the "tribulation" begins in Revelation. If you knew, you would be pre-trib.

Saved as in "born again?" Then the big question is this: is it possible for someone born again to be left behind? Some people say no. I hope they are right. It seems that scripture hints otherwise.

If your definition of "saved" means to be born again, I could not agree more. I don't think that is what is in question here. You added something: "save to heaven..." You mean, it is not their rapture theories that will determine whether or not they are raptured. I really hope you are right. But there are troubling scriptures. Can a born again believe be "lukewarm?" Can a born again believer be watching for the Antichrist rather than watching for Christ? What if they are "looking for" the appearance of the Antichrist, rather than the appearance of our Lord? Heb. 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Yes, it does in 5:6, but there He has JUST ARRIVED. Go ahead, TRY and find Him in Chapter 4. If you find Him there, so me the verse. ( I noticed that you did not even try to answer the questions Jesus asked me.) Jesus asked me about that: "If you read ahead, I was found worthy. Why was I not found worthy in that first search John watched?" I hope you will try and answer this question. Get the whole picture. John just watched a search for one worthy to take the book and open the seals, but NO MAN WAS FOUND. That search ended. There was no where else to search. This angel search in heaven, on earth and under the earth. You must include TIME and TIMING when you read this. TIME PASSES as John weeps. Why do you think God included that John wept MUCH? It is to show us that TIME was passing. It is not written word for word, but God is telling us that ANOTHER SEARCH was started, after that first search failed. I suspect that this search for one worthy began when Jesus died. No one knows how many times this angel searched. 5:5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.” What did Jesus triumph over that caused Him to then be found worthy to open the seals, when BEFORE He triumphed, He was NOT found worthy? The answer is simple: He rose from the dead—He triumphed over death. And then He was found worthy. It seems apparent that written on the outside of this book was instructions as to WHO would be qualified to open the seals. My guess is, it had to be someone who could conquer death with His own power. Don't miss this truth: at one point in time Jesus was NOT found worthy to open the seals, but later WAS found worthy. Sorry, I should have used John's words, He was "under the earth." The truth is, hell is FAR "under" the earth. But it is not in the center. True, after He was NOT SEEN in the throne room, and after He was NOT FOUND in that first search, and after He WAS FOUND in a subsequent search, and after He ascended. Then He was back in the throne room. This is a myth. John does not see the raptured church in heaven until chapter 7, as that crowd too large to number. Your timing is WAY off. John GIVES US the timing by understanding chapters 4 & 5. Jesus got the book and began opening the seals the MOMENT after He ascended. Here are the clues: 1. Jesus NOT SEEN in the throne room in chapter 4. 2. The Holy Spirit STILL in the throne room in chapter 4. 3. Jesus NOT FOUND in a search for someone to open the seals. 4: Jesus THEN found in another search after time had passed. 5. Jesus ascended and entered the throne room where He had not been seen for the past 32 or 33 years. 6. Jesus took the book as soon as He ascended. 7: Jesus begin right then, opening the seals. So at that time, the church was JUST STARTED. You imagine the rapture of the church, but John and the Holy Spirit are way back around 32 AD. If you wish to see heaven AFTER the rapture, read about the great crowd, too large to number.

In John chapter 6, WHO was Jesus talking to? He was talking to JEWS. This was long before God put blindness in part upon the Jews and sent Paul to start the Gentile church of today. In Revelation, "at the last day" will be at the 7th bowl that will finish the week. That is when God will raise up all the OLD TESTAMENT saints. The Gentile church of today, on the other hand, was seen safely in heaven before the 70th week began in John's timeline of Revelation. That was the great crowd, too large to number.

You are free to believe as you do. Let's just wait and see how your beliefs work out for you. For me, I am praying to be found worthy to ESCAPE all these things (the days of tribulation) and to stand before Him. (So shall we ever be with the Lord.) I WILL escape, for I will be found LOOKING for His coming when He will come PRETRIB (just before the start of the Day of the Lord) for His Bride. It will be very easy to be left behind. Just refuse to believe His will come pretrib. Then see what happens.

You pulled verses out of context to give this answer.