The Indwelling Holy Spirit VS Other Spirits

[Botz]

Hi Pariah.

Once again thanks for responding and giving me some thoughtful and provocative comments that are actually forcing me to go over many things again and to double-check on my understanding and experience of the work of the Holy Ghost.

I will give you a decent reply over the week-end after reading and refreshing myself in the Scriptures,praying and considering all we have been talking about.

By the way I am not of the Catholic persuasion.

May the L-rd of Glory encourage you,strengthen you and give you His shalom.

Botz.

[Guest Pariah]

The verse I qouted there Pariah is Ephesians 2:18, and it doesn't agree wtih your statements.

Now then, no need to "withdraw".  I asked you a simple question--are you a cessassionist, yes or no.  This is a convenient time fro you to attempt to "withdraw"!  What are you trying to hide--your doctrinal presuppositions you bring to the Word?

Lastly, I am no preaching another gospel or spirit.  You don't know what you are talking about.  You keep making that false accusation, as if saying itover and over makes it true.  You couldn't prove that accusation anymore than you could prove the moon is made of Swiss cheese.

Now then, are you a cessassionist?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sola...

To you, I would be considered a cessassionist.

Ephesians 2: 13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Seems to me you are ignoring the "through him" part and that is Jesus Christ. You see it as disagreeing with my statements only because you do not want to take a step back from your practise and your way of worship to re-examine your faith by discerning the experiences by His Word. You point out one verse and make the Spirit the focus point of that verse, ignoring the "through him" part referring to Jesus Christ. I acknowledge the verse, but you are ignoring all the verses I have given unto you, and so you emphasize that one part of the verse as if it made void and null the others... all the while, ignoring the "through him" reference to Jesus Christ as if He is not the main focus of the verses in context.

Now I will reiterate my point as it will be making me look like a cessassionist only because you are ignoring the verses given for discernment. The invitations has been given.. they are to Jesus Christ... none to the Spirit because all those that come to Him as their Saviour... receive the spirit of promise by faith.

You made the reference to the part in Acts about believers that had to have hands laid on them to receive the Holy Spirit. Simon .. a former scorceror , and new convert was among them. Simon was popular as a scorceror and as much as there were other parts in Acts where they preach the Gospel and the Holy Spirit fell on new believers, this happened differently... and I say in discernment in regards to the way their lives were in that part of Samaria... for if you had noticed, they gave testimony of the fear of Simon as a scorceror, so then it would only be to their benefit of the new believers that the disciples act as official representatives of the christian faith to lay hands on them to baptize them with the Holy Spirit so that the new believers would not think it to be something else that Simon had conjured up... or to have any doubts that it was the Holy Spirit. Do note that it was written that they did not have the Holy Spirit until the two disciples laid hands on them.

And do note that you will not find where people that had the Holy Spirit.. had the Holy Spirit fell on them again. The reference in Acts.. did not say the believers as it just say "them". You reda on.. you will note the verse where it spoke of new believers and those were the ones the Holy Spirit fell on.. and if you note again... the incident happened while they were presching the Gospel... not praying to the Holy Spirit to come.

I heard this once... "No man can make the Holy Spirit move, but man must get out of the way for the Holy Spirit to move." Sounds like a rudiment of the world where new age channelers condition themselves to receive their spirit guide.

Look, Sola. The Gospel is simple. You either have the Holy Spirit or you don't. The moment the Holy Spirit becomes the spotlight... that is doing what the Holy Spirit in you would never do for He seeks to testify of Jesus Christ and glorify Him. The Holy Spirit will not speak of himself, but yet too many people are far more willing to make the Holy Spirit the focal part of worship when it coes to these "visitations" and manifestations that only glorifies these spirits when they visit. The world receive them for they see it, but what did Jesus say?

John 14:16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Now by the grace of God.. you look at verse 17 and how the world does receive because they see it, and how they do not receive the Holy Ghost because they do not see it. Note the line drawn on HOW YOU WILL KNOW Him.

The verses in the Bible are not supposed to turn your worship of Jesus into "Spirit" worship... especially since the indwelling Holy Ghost seeks to points to Jesus and by Him the Father. You are to worship Him (Jesus) IN Spirit and IN Truth... not out of Spirit by calling for it to come again and again as the world receive it.

Bottomline.... that practise.. that way of worship... is of the world and calling these spirits as they visit, the "Holy Spirit", when He is in you is utter hypocrisey. You blur that line of discernment... and no one can test the spirits whethor they be of God or not. That is the error that you are missing when you blur that line.

Why am I making a big deal about this? Because it is a false witness of the Gospel. If the Gospel is Jesus Christ... how is it that you are preaching "another" spirit other than the one you had already RECEIVED because of the Gospel....... and yet calling these visiting spirits, the Holy Spirit, is hypocrisey when He is in you? We are warned about adding to God's Words, and yet if we get drunken in His presence, we think it is the Lord, ignoring.. all these warnings....

1 John 4: 3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1 Timothy 4: 1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Matthew 24: 23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before. 26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Luke 13: 23Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Note verse 26. Think that way of worship is worth defending more than the faith is?

2 Corinthians 13: 5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 6But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

I know you said He is in you, but you are also saying something else that is not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is one or the other. You cannot get closer to God "if" He is in the worship place. Your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit... thus you cannot get any closer to God than that and by using the Ephesians 2:18 in context.. you can rest in Christ Jesus. Amen.

[Guest Pariah]

Hi Pariah.

Once again thanks for responding and giving me some thoughtful and provocative comments that are actually forcing me to go over many things again and to double-check on my understanding and experience of the work of the Holy Ghost.

I will give you a decent reply over the week-end after reading and refreshing myself in the Scriptures,praying and considering all we have been talking about.

By the way I am not of the Catholic persuasion.

May the L-rd of Glory encourage you,strengthen you and give you His shalom.

Botz.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Botz,

I am glad you are not of the Catholic persuasion as I pray that the Lord Jesus shall direct your footsteps through the Holy Spirit within you that honors the Son thus honoring the Father. Amen.

Pariah

[Sola Scriptora]

No, you are wrong. You qoute verses that have absolutely nothing to do with what I said or believe. I gave you a Scriptural synopsis of NT teaching on the Spirit of God and his workings in this, His Dispensation.

Cessassionism is unScriptural. It is a denial of a fundamental and obvious teaching of the Scirptures. It is a doctrine based on experince--or the lack thereof. You are following a man-made doctrine, and guess who the originator of cessassionism was? John Calvin.

The Bible teaches a Pentecostal, Charismatic theology. You are followng your own doctrines--the doctrines of death.

The Bible clearly teaches that the Baptism of the Spirit is separate from salvation, just as water baptism is. You refuse to believe this.

I follow the gospel of Jesus Christ, all of the fundamental and cardinal doctrines in relation to the Godhead and soteriology. I ALSO believe the doctrines we are taught about the Holy Spirit, and His workings in this dispensation through the life of a believer andf the corporate body. You reject much of this NT teaching. Its really that simple.

Edited January 16, 2005 by Sola Scriptora

[Avodah]

Pariah - I didn't really have time to read all of the posts but one that I did read caused me a little grief.

You were talking about drunkenness (laughing, falling, and other manifestations in churches)

In Jeremiah 23:9 - My heart within me is broken because of the prophets; All my bones shake. I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine has overcome, because of the Lord, and because of His holy words.

John 18: 6 - Now when He said to them, "I am He", they drew back and fell to the ground.

I believe that sometimes the anointing of the Lord is so strong on a person they may shake or rest (fall) in Him. As an intercessor I have experienced heaviness or a burden so strong it takes you to the floor because you can't stand. Discernment IS very important, but you don't want to discount things of GOD because they are "different".

John 21:11 - And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

We don't know it all. I will be the first to admit that.

Bless you abundantly!

[Botz]

Hi Pariah. You are not forgotten...this is just taking a lot of time to cover decently and I would like to give a more informed answer...so I am still reading and praying. All the best. Botz.

[Botz]

Ooops just pressed the wrong button and deleted my reply...it took ages and it was not saved......(screeeaaammmms inwardly). Will have to do it later. sorry.

[Guest Pariah]

No, you are wrong.  You qoute verses that have absolutely nothing to do with what I said or believe.  I gave you a Scriptural synopsis of NT teaching on the Spirit of God and his workings in this, His Dispensation. 

Cessassionism is unScriptural.  It is a denial of a fundamental and obvious teaching of the Scirptures.  It is a doctrine based on experince--or the lack thereof.  You are following a man-made doctrine, and guess who the originator of cessassionism was?  John Calvin.

The Bible teaches a Pentecostal, Charismatic theology.  You are followng your own doctrines--the doctrines of death.

The Bible clearly teaches that the Baptism of the Spirit is separate from salvation, just as water baptism is.  You refuse to believe this.

I follow the gospel of Jesus Christ, all of the fundamental and cardinal doctrines in relation to the Godhead and soteriology.  I ALSO believe the doctrines we are taught about the Holy Spirit, and His workings in this dispensation through the life of a believer andf the corporate body.  You reject much of this NT teaching.  Its really that simple.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sola,

Again... you are the one seeing me as a cessationist. Don't even bother bringing in John Calvin cause I had never mentioned him.

Dictionary definition: Cessation. Noun.. A Ceasing; stop; pause. If you are referring to me saying that once you have the Holy Spirit... that is it. Then yes... that is what I am saying, but because cessationist can be a label that applies to other usage, I suggest you stop at the name calling and just address the point you are trying to make.

How this relates to John Calvin.. I know not, cause I am not preaching him.

To avoid the man-made trap you have set about calling what I am preaching a cessassion theology, try and tell me that what I have been preaching is unscriptural.

Ephesians 1

12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Now that does this say?

And yet you say this... "The Bible clearly teaches that the Baptism of the Spirit is separate from salvation, just as water baptism is. "

Oh really? You reading inbetween the lines and adding to God's words to justify the worship of these visiting spirits in their manifestations that only glorifies them when they visit..... calling them the Holy Ghost..... the Bible clearly teaches this?

Ephesians 4

4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7

I had quoted more scriptures for discernment whereas you quoted scriptures, emphasizing one part and not the whole content of the message given.

This is the faith.

2 Corinthians 13

5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 6But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

But what you are preaching is another spirit other than you have already received. So do not tell me that you are "just" preaching spirit baptism is seperate from salvation. You are using that as a springboard to say that you can have the Holy Ghost falling on you again and again.. whethor you say it like that or in different ways.... you are not changing the subject cause that is what you are saying. The Holy Ghost is either in you or He is not. To say that He is falling on you again is to say He was not in you, and Jesus lied that He would abide in us forever. THAT is the full ramification of what you are preaching and that is you error whethor you say the whole ramification or not.. YOU IMPLIED IT!

How can it not be hypocrisey if the Holy Spirit is falling on you if He is already in you again and again and again?

And getting back to why those people in Samaria did not get the Holy Ghost right away.. I explained that to you, but you ignored it as you ignored other places in Acts in that while they were preaching about Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost fell on new believers among them. They received the spirit of adoption the moment they had believed. They did not call for the Spirit to come like the world would do... they heard the gospel and believed, thus receiving the spirit of promise. But the people in Samaria were experienced with the supernatural because of Simon. To receive the Holy Spirit then due to their past experience, may have cause some to commit the unpardonable sin. Thus an official representative of the Gospel like two of the desciples of Jesus were needed to laid hands on then as the two went to them so that there would be no doubt of the xperience at that time of being batptized with the Spirit. This is pure discernement as one would give why Jewish believers had to be baptized with water first in order to get the Holy Spirit... to signify to the public that they were dying to the Law in being representative of the old system of obtaining righteousness or dying to self as water baptism implies as one is raised out of the water as a symbolic gesture of a new creation in Christ as it is His righteousness they represent thus receiving the Holy Ghost because of the act of public witness of denouncing the old system while in getting the Holy Ghost through Christ Jesus.

But if you want to preach the Holy Spirit or what you think is the Holy Spirit in its manifestations of theses visits that only glorifies the visits and glorifies that way of worship... go ahead. You will not have my blessings because that is not defending the faith that He is in us.

Now you can dance around the issue all you want, trying to bring it to the line and back again, but you are preaching another spirit other than the one you had already received. Either He is in you.. OR YOU are telling the world that He is not and that He has to keep coming again and again... as if the Holy Spirit is a bully that comes and goes, knocking people over flat on their backs or pulling signs and wonders as if they are parlor tricks for the amusements that ... LO.. He is here.

Matthew 24

23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before. 26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

1 John 3

22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Chapter 4

1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

So you decide this day whom you are going to serve... the Lord Jesus Christ or something esle in His name.. and believe me, brother.. I had to ask Jesus to help me do this.. so you better too.

[Guest Pariah]

Pariah - I didn't really have time to read all of the posts but one that I did read caused me a little grief.

You were talking about drunkenness (laughing, falling, and other manifestations in churches)

In Jeremiah 23:9 - My heart within me is broken because of the prophets; All my bones shake.  I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine has overcome, because of the Lord, and because of His holy words.

John 18: 6 - Now when He said to them, "I am He", they drew back and fell to the ground.

I believe that sometimes the anointing of the Lord is so strong on a person they may shake or rest (fall) in Him.  As an intercessor I have experienced heaviness or a burden so strong it takes you to the floor because you can't stand.  Discernment IS very important, but you don't want to discount things of GOD because they are "different". 

John 21:11 - And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

We don't know it all.  I will be the first to admit that. 

Bless you abundantly!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi kraz4gsus,

"In Jeremiah 23:9 - My heart within me is broken because of the prophets; All my bones shake. I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine has overcome, because of the Lord, and because of His holy words."

Jeremiah was referring to His holy words as being the cause of his being broken to where all his bones shake, thus giving the analogy of the drunken man. Let us not refer to this verse as a justification for being drunk in the presence of the Lord for that is not so.

There was a practise among the American Indians in calling for the Great Spirit. The reason they resorted to alcohol so much was because they had lost the commune with that Great Spirit and they were enjoying the similar effects that the alcohol brought when they were calling for the Great Spirit to come. Same dance, chating.. drum beats.. and here we are.. same music.. blanking out our thoughts.. focussing on the coming of this spirit.... thinking it to be the Holy Spirut.

One thing you are foregetting is the cal for testing the spirits which nobody is doing. They are just taking it as they come. No questions asked.. no discernement given. Just a bunch of people ignoring what is plainly written for discernement and looking ofr scriptures here and there to justify the experience and the way of worship which is nothing short but spirit worship.

Now unto the other verse.

John 18: 6 - Now when He said to them, "I am He", they drew back and fell to the ground.

They fell down on their faces... not on their backs. Taking a step back or two or how many steps.. does not mean they fell on their backs.

John 18

4Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye? 5They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. 6As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. 7Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. 8Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:

The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

Went backwards and then fell to the ground can give the false image for those seeking to use scriptures to justify their experience of being bowled over and pinned down on their backs. But that is not the same thing. Look at the context of the message given in John. This was the time when Jesus was being arrested. There would be no reason for what was happening to what you experienced to be happening to them. Indeed, if they had gotten up, they would have run for it. In worship, it is always written and to those that read scriptures to know what worship is.. is to fall face down on the ground on their knees. This was in reference to the Jewish belief that if anyone looked upon God, they would die, but in this case, by saying I am He, even God's creatures had to recognize the significance of His Words by drawing back and fall down just out of reflex. Do note.. on your backs.. looking up.. one could still see God. That is why in worship.. it is kneeling and face down.

One more thing to note.

1 Corinthians 14: 32And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

You stated "I believe that sometimes the anointing of the Lord is so strong on a person they may shake or rest (fall) in Him. As an intercessor I have experienced heaviness or a burden so strong it takes you to the floor because you can't stand. Discernment IS very important, but you don't want to discount things of GOD because they are "different". "

Scriptures are given for discernment to know what is different. It would be best of you did read all that I was posting so that you may know my stance clearly. Bottomline, the indwelling Holy Spirit would never take the spotlight off of Jesus Christ just to knock people down on their backs to announce He is there. That is not an anointing or another baptism or power or fire or all the other declaration that people give to this experience because they really do not know what it is or why it is done. 1 Corinthians 14: 32,33 declares that it is not of God.

I do not doubt your experience, but that is why you need to discern. If you listen to how other people that have the same experienced, they would call it differently rather than an anointing. Why is that? If the Holy Spirit is going to bother doing a manifestations like that, He would have someoen speak in tongues and another to interpret it as to what was going on.. but nope. Not a one. Everybody is saying different things and we do have His Words that clearly sets it apart as not being of God for all it does is change the way believers worship.. from worshipping Him (Jesus Christ) IN Spirit and IN truth to ......spirit worship. How many seducing spirits would love to steal the spotlight off of Jesus Christ in the worship place? I know that the real INDWELLING Holy Ghost would never do that.

Something to think about and pray about. Amen.

[Guest Pariah]

Ooops just pressed the wrong button and deleted my reply...it took ages and it was not saved......(screeeaaammmms inwardly).

Edited January 21, 2005 by Pariah