The Indwelling Holy Spirit VS Other Spirits

[Guest Pariah]

Hi Botz,

I think there is a fine line between constant glorification of the Holy Ghost and the occasional thanks or unfettered joy that the Holy Ghost fills us with.

I believe scriptures says that we are not to glorify the Holy Spirit at all so it should not even reach being a constant thing. The moment we stop honoring the Son, we are not honoring the Father. You cannot honor the Father by honoring the Holy Spirit. And as far as giving thanks...

Ephesians 5: 19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; 20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

That last verse again says where the thanks should be going to and in whose name.

It seems though that when one recognizes the work of the Holy Ghost one is at the same time recognizing the presence of the Father and the Son.

Let's seperate that .. shall we?

The work of the Holy Ghost is this as far as people recognizing it...

1 Corinthians 12: 4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Do note verse seven as the end result of any manifestation of the Spirit.

Ephesians 1: 17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Colossians 2: 4And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. 5For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

There is no more continual filling. We are filled for we are complete in Christ Jesus. The moment one looks to more.. that goes against Jesus promise ..

35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

There is a rest for the people of God and Jesus is that rest. The Lord ministering through the Holy Spirit within us to one another with the manifestations above is to profit the body of believers withal in fellowship in the knowledge of Him, Jesus Christ the Lord.

Recognizing the three is by this alone...

2 Corinthians 13:5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 6But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

John 14: 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jesus' commandments are still His invitations to Himself. One recognize that fact in regarsd to the three being in us as promised for those that come to Jesus: NOT to the Holy Ghost. There are no invitations to the Holy Ghost.

John 10: 1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.....7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. 11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

There is an obvious danger of calling the presence of the Holy Ghost as being not from G-d or a deceiving spirit that is seducing the Church...now I know we must be aware of the possibility...but that is a huge and dangerous leap..from people going a bit over the top with the presence of G-d and the laughter and all...and some trying to manufacture the presence of G-d or to create a systematic method that will introduce us into His presence.

No.. the obvious danger for calling for the presence of God is the hypocrisey and the false witness of the Gospel by doing that when He is in us.

The test for a spirit that is other than the Holy Spirit is given here...

1John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

I believe here John is talking about the motivating factor in a persons life.

A Believer will love Jesus and his whole emphasis will be on the L-rd and the Kingdom...a person who says he is a Believer will not be able to disguise the true nature of his heart because he will be unable to acknowledge Jesus from the heart and this is the anti-Christ spirit (worldly spirit).

No. John is talking about how to discern or test the spirits. He drew the line.. greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world. When a person confess that the spirit of christ is here or there as in a place and not in a believer.. that is what John is talking about as the spirit of anti-christ which is IN the world as opposed to the Holy Spirit whom abides in us.

However unusual some of the emphasis might be...I do not think this is applicable to the vast majority of faith preachers...whereas it is certainly evident amongst the ecumenical movement that you mentioned in an earlier post...where compromise with the world and other religions is predominant.

What you are practising and defending is also evident in the catholic church. Amazing how this presence of God is so powerful and yet no one is there convicted to leave catholicism when His Word clearly says so.

The reference I made to drunkenness was no so much to do with lack of self control but more to do with being overwhelmed with joy...being filled to overflowing with the living waters...enjoying the lovely presence of G-d...which at times might appear similar to a person being uninhibited through alcohol.

Matthew 9: 14Then came to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but thy disciples fast not? 15And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast. 16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse. 17Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

In verse 15, the analogy is that Jesus was taken from us. Now that we are a new creation in Christ... this wine.. the Holy Spirit is not running over lest we .. the bottles ...perish. We are preserved.. sealed.. bought.. saved. We are His. To suggest that we need a constant refilling would suggest a loss. That is not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is preaching another spirit... calling it the Holy Spirit when we have receivED the Holy Spirit. It is hypocrisey and goes against the Good News.

When at Pentecost the disciples were extolling G-d in various languages I believe they were also unbelievably joyful..pushing and shoving each other as they laughed and extolled the King of Glory..it was a glorious time....so I believe some of the crowd were mocking more than just the unusual phenomena of glossalalia...It was a noisy,joyous wonderful moment...with much shouting and jostling...amazing. ( This is how I picture the scene ).

That is adding to God's words what was written. What you did has nothing to do with applying or discerning. You added to what was written. What goes on today with what you described... no one could understand the wonderful works of God through their native tongue if what was happening today was happening back then. You are trying to fit your experience into the Word of God which happened to be the book of Acts.

Acts1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

Act 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

Act 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Acts1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

I would say that they cried out to G-d for the promise...they asked for the Holy Ghost to come....they believed what the L-rd had said to them and were obedient in asking for the Holy Ghost of promise...perhaps the words of the L-rd..

That is not what was written. They waited for the promise of the Holy Spirit as commanded by Jesus. They even casted lot to fill in Judas' place among the 12 while they were waiting. You have to realize that it is very easy to say they were waiting and praying, but that is not written.

Luke11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

...also encouraged them to be persistant and to wait expectantly.

I have to say that this is the most out of context grouping of verses here because..

#1. While Jesus was with them... they had to be constantly given the Holy Spirit while ministering with Him.

#2. He first starts out teaching them to pray in response to a request about how to pray.... the request was not for the Holy Ghost, but after seeing the results of prayer as being good from God, He concludes with the giving of the Holy Ghost also. We know that as promised, when Jesus leaves them.. that is when the Comforter will come and abides in them forever. While He was with them... I can see the repeated request for the Holy Ghost because... they were not saved.. thus old bottles whereas the new wine (the Holy Spirit) runs out.

You also wrote..

When people look for a sign of God's presence.. a touch.. or whatever... is this not a real danger of relating to another spirit, thinking it is the Holy Spirit when we know that we can't get closer to the Holy Spirit being outside of us than He is in us?

I think there are always dangers lurking for Believers...and many nowadays look for constant reassurance of the presence of G-d and become very 'feeling' orientated...I also believe you are correct in what you hinted at...that many run after signs and phenomena to validate their faith...or just to encourage them in their faith...there are indeed many pitfalls.

I also understand what you are getting at about how we can't have any more of the Holy Ghost than we already have...He dwells within us...amen. This does not however mean that there are not times when the presence of G-d is just so evident and overwhelming...or that you cannot be refreshed/encouraged/challenged with a fresh touch from heaven...even on a daily basis whether you get the doodabs or not.

Do remember what Jesus said... no good tree will produce an evil fruit. You say you understand and that you acknowledge the danger, but you are ignoring the root cause of that danger.. where the focus is on the Holy Ghost when the indwelling Holy Ghost does not seek it but place the spotlight on Jesus Christ.

Spirit of the Living God

[Sola Scriptora]

Pariah, you said:

The Scriptures have been given to discern by. To go by good feelings is not only dangerous, but unscriptural. You are blurring the line given by scriptures to discern by. You are voiding the faith.

Who said anything about going by feelings? Jesus said my sheep know my voice. Also, the Scriptures teach us about the presence of God, about prayer, worship etc. Where there is much prayer there is a tangible sensing of God's Presence. This is fact. God inhabits the praises of His people. As far a voiding faith??? That is nonsense. We establish faith. If you are an expert on faith, you should be able to move mountains--heal the sick and raise the dead. Don't preach to us about faith unless you have the goods to back it up, for Paul said the Kingdom of God is NOT in word only, but also in power. And he also said his preaching and teachings was not with enticing words of man's wisdom but IN DEMONSTRATION OF THE SPIRIT AND OF POWER, that our FAITH would not rest in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. The Power of God in our preaching and our meetings ESTABLISHES FAITH, according to Paul.

You seek after a sign but the Holy Spirit dwells in us by faith. Non christian can be in your service and still walk away from it not saved only because they were there for the experience. This is called glorifying something else in His name. To what edification is there when I get pushed from behind by an unseen force three times? What edification is there when a person is struck mute? What edification is there when a person is laughing without self control, voiding that fruit of the Spirit of temperance and yet believing joy to be drunkenness when drunkenness is a work of the flesh? What order is there when there is chaos in the worship place where no one is being edified for God is not the author of confusion but of peace as in ALL churches of the saints? What glory is it when gold specks fall from the ceiling? Or gold coins? What edification is there when a man suddenly has a gold tooth? What part of signs and wonders do you need to see before you realize they are not talking about Jesus Christ but glorifying signs and wonders of these "visiting presence"? If the Holy Spirit can only be known by dwelling in us, you can thus discern what is after the rudiments of the world when they receive this presence because they see it.

Nice questions! You can ask God about why he had a prophet preach naked, Why did he have one lay one his side for a year? Why did John fall down as a dead man when he saw the risen Lord? Why did Peter's shadow heal the sick? Why did Paul's handkerchiefs have healing virtue in them?

These signs are just that---signs and WONDERS. They make people WONDER. They draw p[eople to the Lord. They confirm the word. The Bible tells us the Lord CONFIRMED the preaching of the word WITH SIGNS FOLLOWING-Mark 16:20.

God is a sign and wonder God. You don't like that...but the Bible teaches this. Accept it. God is not bound to your box. He is only bound to His internal perfections and holiness. He can do signs as he pleases.

FYI.. do not use the book of Acts for creating doctrines when the letters to the churches speak plainly regarding doctrines in the faith.

Do not use Acts??? Really? The Bible says ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration and is PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE, reproof, instruction, etc. Yo are telling me to VOID 28 chapter of the Scriptures simply because they contradict your beliefs, AND they show that God does move in a supernatural way through His people---the church. The book of Acts is to be the NORM, not some dead form of church service where nothing happens except people singing from a hymnal--three and out, ands then they punt to the offering, and then the pastor preaches a sermon, gives a benediction, and Amen.

1Cor 14 tells us what fellowships are to look like---they are to have Bible teachings, AND the gifts of the Spirit in operation. Prophecy, tongues and interpretation, revelation, psalms, words. etc.

It is amazing that you would chide me about following the Bible and then tell me I can't use certain portions of it.

FYI, there is nothing in the epistles that revokes anything in Acts, it simply EXPLAINS IT. There is only ONE TYPE OF CHURCH in the New Testament, a Pentecostal/Charismatic group of Faith-people out in the streets evangelizing, healing the sick casting out devils, and loving one another. There are house fellowships where the gifts of the Spirit manifest to encourage and edify one another.

There is NO HINT in the New Testament that the church was to be ANY OTHER WAY. There is no hint that the church would cease to be that way and become powerless, giftless and dead. Some churches are like that, but its not God's fault.. They simply need the Lord to breath the life of Pentecost into them.

Example... I know about the verses in Acts where people are trying to say that the Holy Spirit fell on believers again, but... that is not what is written.. for while they were speaking the Gospel.. do note they did not call for the Spirit to come... then the Holy Spirit fell on "them" and if you read further, you would have noticed whom the Holy Spirit fell on... new believers... thus is according to the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Doctrine of faith declares only one baptism of the Holy Spirit. That is it. If there were more, then we could never preach Jesus Christ and him crucified because christianity would become spirituanity when people will figure out that they can get those spirits again and again withour preaching Jesus.

Now you are teaching from the book of Acts! A no-no. Simply read Acts two where 120 believers had been having quite a long prayer meeting and suddenly the Spirit fell. Or Acts 8 where Philip the evangelist had a Biblical evangelist ministry with signs wonders, healings, casting out devils and salvations. He got the new believers baptized in water. The the Apostles came and laid hands on them and the Holy Ghost FELL ON THEM. They came for the express purpose of having a Holy Ghost meeting with these believers. Same in Acts 19. Paul laid hands on the newly baptized believers so the Holy Ghost could come upon them and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

Hebrews 6:2 says there is a doctrine of baptisms--plural. There is only ONE BAPTISM FOR BELIEVERS--WATER BAPTISM, not one for jew and another for Gentile--like the Judaizers would have had the Ephesians believe. That was the context of Paul's "one" baptism statement. But there is a baptism of the Spirit, that Peter said was for all who are called by the Lord. He says it is a "gift".

Sola Scriptura.... discern the experience by the Word of God... not discern the Word of God by the experience. Mediums can sense a presence too.. so what? No matter how you slice it, this is preaching another spirit other than what you had already RECEIVED. May the Lord cause the increase.

Nonsense my friend. You are simply reading your Bible through denominational spectacles. The Holy Ghost lives in me, and I preach Christ crucified. You are making foolish accusations, because you are under men's tradition, which make the Word of God of none effect to you. You are rejecting the ministry of the Holy Spirit in this Dispensation. Your Pneumatology is not Scriptural. I hope you have ears to hear.

Edited January 13, 2005 by Sola Scriptora

[Botz]

Hi Pariah. (editing this with colours as the quotes ain't working) You red. Me purple.

Again thanks for your interesting comments.

I will try not to make this too long and pick up on some of the main points.

Starting with your second to last paragraph...but in sequence thereafter...

1 Timothy 4: 1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Seducing spirits in conjunction with doctrines of devils. That means what? The rudiment of the world I was talking about earlier. What is the hypocrisey other than calling for the Spirit of God to fall on us when He is in us? How can you not be concerned that your conscience is not seared as if with a hot iron to not see this? Seeking God's Presence.. calling for the Spirit to come... no matter how you slice it and make it softer and more palpable to digest... His Word does not validate this type of worship at all. The moment you stop honoring the Son in the worship place.. you are not honoring the Father. Those that worship God.. must worship Him (Jesus Christ & the Father) IN Spirit and in Truth... and what you are defending is not that. There is a rest for the people of God and those that have entered into that rest has ceased from all works as He did for we are His. Period. That is why there is no more hungering after more of God. We are filled.

By the way I constantly reassess the things that I believe against Scripture...and not everything is conclusive...I am always open to change that is in line with the word of G-d.

You said...

I believe scriptures says that we are not to glorify the Holy Spirit at all so it should not even reach being a constant thing. The moment we stop honoring the Son, we are not honoring the Father. You cannot honor the Father by honoring the Holy Spirit.

Where does it say this?

The assumption is that by honouring the Spirit one dishonours both the Father and the Son or somehow stops honouring the Father and the Son...this is incorrect.

Is it wrong to thank G-d the Holy Spirit for the work He does in revealing the Father and the Son to us...we are told to give G-d the glory due His name.

Psalm 29:2 Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name; worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness.

We actually honour the L-rd by honouring and acknowledging the work of the Holy Spirit...who ministers the unity of the G-dhead to us.

I was baptized in the name of the Father,Son and Holy Ghost. One G-d.

You could pray ...'Thank you Heavenly Father for sending us Your Son..thank you L-rd Jesus for dying for us...thank you Holy Spirit for revealing the Father and the Son to us' This does not deny or confound the nature and work of G-d but acknowledges the truth and gives glory to the L-rd...and to Him alone.

You say...

There is no more continual filling. We are filled for we are complete in Christ Jesus. The moment one looks to more.. that goes against Jesus promise

..

You seem to misunderstand something here.

When a person is initially baptized with the Holy Ghost...He is indwelt by the Father and the Son...they make their abode in him..the temple of the Holy Spirit.

By asking G-d to come afresh or fill us again we are not saying the Spirit does not dwell in us or has not sealed us or is not the foretaste of our inheritance...we are crying out to the L-rd for His presence which is revealed to us through the Holy Spirit.

Also in the Scripture from Ephesians 5:18 that says..." be filled with the Spirit..." the greek tense is.."be being filled." it is continuous. As we seek after the L-rd everyday with all of our hearts we can expect to be filled again and again and again and again etc....someone has described this as having a full glass of water and G-d constantly filling it to overflowing...the opposite would be to be dried up or to lose ones first love or to be motivated by the letter of the Law and not the Spirit...one kills the other makes alive.

You say...

No. John is talking about how to discern or test the spirits. He drew the line.. greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world. When a person confess that the spirit of christ is here or there as in a place and not in a believer.. that is what John is talking about as the spirit of anti-christ which is IN the world as opposed to the Holy Spirit whom abides in us.

I agree that the Spirit of Christ dwells in the body of Christ...His Church....and that anti-Christ is in the world...I was basically saying the same as you although I left out a couple of words .(which I have corrected in red)

What you are practising and defending is also evident in the catholic church. Amazing how this presence of God is so powerful and yet no one is there convicted to leave catholicism when His Word clearly says so

Not sure what you mean here .

Botz...

When at Pentecost the disciples were extolling G-d in various languages I believe they were also unbelievably joyful..pushing and shoving each other as they laughed and extolled the King of Glory..it was a glorious time....so I believe some of the crowd were mocking more than just the unusual phenomena of glossalalia...It was a noisy,joyous wonderful moment...with much shouting and jostling...amazing. ( This is how I picture the scene ).

You replied....

That is adding to God's words what was written. What you did has nothing to do with applying or discerning. You added to what was written. What goes on today with what you described... no one could understand the wonderful works of God through their native tongue if what was happening today was happening back then. You are trying to fit your experience into the Word of God which happened to be the book of Acts.

My description of Pentecost was what I felt was going on...it had nothing whatsoever to do with adding to the word...or trying to fit my experience into the Acts of the Apostles....How do you picture this momentous time...everything thing done decently and in order...no exuberance...perhaps they were all Strict Baptists?

Botz...I would say that they cried out to G-d for the promise...they asked for the Holy Ghost to come....they believed what the L-rd had said to them and were obedient in asking for the Holy Ghost of promise...perhaps the words of the L-rd..

You replied...

That is not what was written. They waited for the promise of the Holy Spirit as commanded by Jesus. They even casted lot to fill in Judas' place among the 12 while they were waiting. You have to realize that it is very easy to say they were waiting and praying, but that is not written.

Do you think they twiddled their thumbs as they 'waited' ?...I know what I said is conjecture but I believe it reflects the nature of their waiting ...Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. ...you make it sound so unreasonable as though it is contrary to the spirit of the text!

Spirit of the Living God Fall afresh on me,

Spirit of the Living God Fall afresh on me;

Melt me, mold me, fill me, use me;

Spirit of the Living God Fall afresh on me.

I mean.. what is that above? This is not preaching Jesus Chrsit and him crucified. This is after the rudiments of the world and not after Christ Jesus. The American Indians call for the Great Spirit.. new age channelers call for their spirit guides... mediums call up ghosts.... this is the rudiment of the world ,and why Jesus gave the commandments of His invitations to Himself only because there are other spirits in the world and the ONLY way we can know Him is that He abides in us

No this is not preaching Christ crucified. It is a chorus not a gospel message!

This goes hand in hand with what I mentioned earlier..asking G-d to refresh us with the presence of His Holy Spirit is a perfectly legit prayer/chorus....to equate this with the dark arts is seriously over the top.

I know of those transformation and how they are more bold and so forth... but there was something I noticed as the motivating factor from all of that.. pride.

Here's why. I have heard when initiating this service of the Spirit falling on people that it is pride that keeps people from coming forward... but from what I see of all those going up and falling down and doing convulsions and stuff... it is pride that sends them up there. Why wouldn't it be? Here is something happening to someone that is not happening to someone else. Now.. the manifestations were given to profit the body withal? Where is the profit? Where is the edification in the knowledge of Jesus? And yet you understand that people go to the extreme, but at the same time, you ignore the root cause of this type of worship... the focus being on the Holy Ghost when He is in us. No good tree will produce an evil fruit.

You go on to make sweeping generalizations about those who have been mininstered to by the Holy Ghost and laugh or cry etc...suggesting that none of these things is initiated by His Spirit and that people who manifest are actually motivated from pride.

I find this pretty baffling...most people I know who go forward for ministry are motivated out of obedience to the leading of the Holy Ghost and the desire to allow G-d to change their hearts this is totally honouring to the L-rd and if it were unprofitable would be a complete waste of time.

I wonder what evil you think is produced in these peoples lives?

You say...

I have seen alot of evil fruits coming out of this. I see the "good" which is nothing but hype and sensationalism of one's experience, and although not everyone engages in it, the basis for the extreme and the errors comes from this easily for nothing of the basis of which you are defending of this practise or type of worship can stop the extreme from happening. A little leaven leavens a whole lump.

I have already said that I have seen the flesh at work...and the hype and the sensationalism...just turn on Christian TV to get a taste....or look at the Corinthian Church who were doing all sorts of things misusing the gifts of the Holy Ghost.

Paul never suggested they never again minister the gifts....he did not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

There are just as many sombre-minded Churches that never have their faith stretched...who never move in the power of the Holy Ghost...and who pride themselves on their adherence to biblical doctrine that are guilty of being in the flesh and accomplishing very little and being a poor witness of Christ-crucified.

I shall pray for you that the Lord may deliver you from the small leaven that has leaven into a whole lump from christianity to spirituanity. Either Jesus is the Door or you are climbing up another away... disobeying His commandments which are His invitations. That is why we are warned of false prophets so that we can narrow the gait back to Jesus... because false prophets are broadening the way to include what they claim to be the Holy Spirit for a little bit to the whole service when the indwelling Holy Spirit seeks to place the spotlight on Jesus Christ... period and so should we... on Jesus Christ and him crucified... period.. thus glorifying God the Father in Heaven.

I appreciate your prayers but the implication that the Saviour that I have believed in is not the L-rd and that I have been blinded to the truth by a deceiving spirit who masquerades under the guise of the Holy Ghost is untrue....you may strongly disagree with some of the things I believe...but I know in whom I have believed.

[Guest Pariah]

Hi Sola,

You are missing my point. I pray that the Lord will show you and cause the increase in the knowledge of Him.

Who said anything about going by feelings? Jesus said my sheep know my voice. Also, the Scriptures teach us about the presence of God, about prayer, worship etc. Where there is much prayer there is a tangible sensing of God's Presence. This is fact.

Sensing God's presence is what I am talking about in regards to going by feelings. Fact is.. the Holy Spirit dwells in us by faith. You cannot get closer to God by having the Holy Spirit in the worship place. There is no point to it other than taking the spotlight off of Jesus Christ which is what other spirits that are in the world would do, and why all invitations points to Jesus. But too many people are giving invitations to the Holy Spirit or what they believe to be the Holy Spirit.... that is climbing up another way.. and broadening the way.

I think I know what you are referring to about the prayer thing. It is a misconception so I shall address it by the grace of God.

Matthew 18: 19Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

If you go to the original Greek word.... midst... means inbetween in this verse. In applying with what Jesus was talking about... prayer.... one can know for sure that is what He meant as being the mediator between God and man.

1 Timothy 2: 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Of course... some people will argue that the Holy Spirit can mediate also.. which is not what is written above, but I shall go to that reference that was misapplied.

Romans 8: 25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Some people use verse 26 to validate prayer language, but note that groanings which cannot be uttered .. means what? Silence.

Back to what we are talking about, by the grace of God, we.. as saints make intercession for one another when we pray for one another... but that doesn't make us mediators. So it is with the Holy Spirit. He is the Comforter because He dwells in us thus we can have comfort in that because He dwells in us that Christ Jesus.. who knoweth the mind of the Spirit, He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God because there is only one mediator between God and man.. the man Christ Jesus. Some one will say that "he" is the Spirit that searcheth the hearts and knoweth the mind of the Spirit.... which is nothing more but ignoring that he has to be another Person.. and that is Christ Jesus that knoweth the mind of the Spirit because scriptures places Jesus as the ONLY mediator between God and man. So.. it is like this.... anyone out there don't feel the presence of God, can rest in those scriptures that He is in us as promised and as verse 25 says.. we hope for what we see not as faith is the evidence of things not seen... whereas we have been warned about how the world receive not the Holy Spirit for they seeth Him not.... thus what is after the rudiment of the world is that they receive the things they see. So as per example from my experience.... I got pushed from behind three times in one of those services... what was the edification for me in the knowledge of Him? What was it that profit the body of believers withal? And yet we read plainly in scriptures all the manifestations of the Spirit was given to profit the body withal.. so the miracles and the signs.... does not give us knowledge of Jesus Christ where our love will abound yet more and more if it takes our eyes off of Jesus to these "visiting spirits"... and worshipping them.. thinking it the Holy Spirit and ignoring the fact that the Holy Spirit can only be known IN us and He seeks to glorify Jesus Christ.... not steal the show and say.. here I am. So when you sense God's presence in the place of worship.. what would be the point if He is in you? Seducing spirits would make it a point in the worship place to steal that worship. The indwelling Holy Spirit would not.

Understand that I do not doubt your experience, but just because you had them in church does not mean that we are not to test them by the word of God just because we feel His presence thus... it must be okay to... what? Take our eyes off of seeking the face of Jesus? That is not the work of the Holy Spirit. Nope. All this does is establish another way of worship... which is OUT of spirit and out of Truth. To use these experiences to establish faith is to look to those visiting spirits which you think is the Holy Spirit... I say it is not.... is to void the faith that He is in us. What is hypocrisey other than calling for the Spirit of God to fall on us when He is in us? How can anyone say that they are not preaching another spirit other than what they have already received? If someone says.. This is Jesus Christ... people would be skeptical. But when someone says... this is the Holy Ghost... people are not so skeptical let alone discerning when the Holy Spirit will not speak of himself so why are people speaking of the Holy Spirit when the Holy Spirit seek to speak of Jesus Christ and glorify Him? This is why in the latter days, we are warned to strive ye to enter through the strait gate because...all invitations points to Jesus,,, never to the Holy Ghost.. for it is by Jesus.. we receive the spirit of adoption and the indwelling Holy Ghost still points to Jesus. All signs and wonders do so to profit the body withal in the knowledge of Jesus Christ: NOT glorify the so called "Holy Spirit" upon its "visitation"... and that is what is really going on if people will ever step back to remember their first love is Jesus Christ, for He is the Good News to man.. the Holy Spirit is a promise for all those that come to Him the Holy Spirit still puts the spotlight on Jesus Christ.

Now you are teaching from the book of Acts! A no-no.

When I said that you are not to make doctrines out of the book of Acts, I was referring to how people try to fit their experiences into God's Words... the book of Acts which is a recording of event of the early church... a historical account if you will... as opposed to when writers to the early churches speaking directly about the doctrines regarding our faith. Plainly speaking... what you are saying and practising goes against what is plainly stated in the epistles to the churches. Making up a doctrine by aligning what you believe is happening in the book of Acts with your experience which DOES NOT align with the letters to the churches when they speak of the doctrines regarding our faith..... is the no no. The only reason I referred to the book of Acts was to debunk the doctrines that you and others were making out of them and the rest of the New Testament backs me up. Yes.. Scriptures are given for inspiration... for doctrines... for correction.. for training in righteousness.... but as the catholics used scriptures to amke up doctrines that do not line up with the rest of scriptures.. so is making doctrines by fitting your experiences into God's Words.. reading between the lines and adding to God's words... all the while ignoring the rest of scriptures which debunks it as it does catholicism... one need to reassess themselves from this error...may the Lord help them so that they may be sound in the faith... and what is that?

2 Corinthians 13: 5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 6But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

1 John 4: 3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

There is a catholic church that calls for the Holy Spirit to come or to fall on them. They can attest to this "wonderful presence". So.. if that is the Holy Spirit, why isn't He correcting them to get out of catholicism? As you say.. these visitations establishes faith ... so they will remain in catholicism because of their experiences. No signs and wonders that does not glorify Jesus Christ but something else in his name.. even if it be as some claimed to be the Holy Spirit which the indwelling Holy Spirit would never do... profits NOTHING but establishes another way of worship which is nothing short but committing spiritual adultery for they are chasing after other gods.. denying the Lord that bought them when His seal of adoption declares according to the faith that He dwells in us.

In short... what you are defending is just a practise or another way of worship, but I shall tell you, brother.. by the grace of God... that is not the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Simply read Acts two where 120 believers had been having quite a long prayer meeting and suddenly the Spirit fell.

In Acts 1.. they were casting lot to fill Judas place. It did not say they were praying for a long time. They made a short prayer in regards to filling Judas' place and they casted Lot. They were not praying for the Holy Spirit. That is plainly written. They were waiting for the promise as commanded by Jesus. That is all that was written. What you declared was you trying to fit your experience into the book of Acts inbetween the lines...ONLY... and ignoring what is plainly written.

Or Acts 8 where Philip the evangelist had a Biblical evangelist ministry with signs wonders, healings, casting out devils and salvations. He got the new believers baptized in water. He got the new believers baptized in water. The the Apostles came and laid hands on them and the Holy Ghost FELL ON THEM. They came for the express purpose of having a Holy Ghost meeting with these believers

Acts 8 5Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.

.....14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Do note that Philip preached Christ to them... not the Holy Spirit as the focal point. The people gave heed to the Gospel from which miracles and healings took place. Now.. whom did it glorify? Jesus Christ whom he preached.. or the Holy Spirit whom is not what is written that he was preaching?

The Holy Ghost fell on these new believers because they had not received him yet as verse 16 says. Note as soon as they laid hands on them.. they received the Holy Ghost. It was not a long prayer because if you read on.. a new believer by the name of Simon was so impressed by this action of the laying on of hands.. he thought he could buy this power of laying on of hands to give the Holy Ghost. If it was a long prayer, Simon would not think it had to do with the laying on of hands as it would be to long prayers then. ...and do note.. that is the type of worship you are defending.. long prayers to receive what you calim to be the Holy Ghost... is it not? And do note.. Peter and John came to them when they got word that Samaria had received the Word of God...to pray for them by laying on of hands. From the perspective of the new believers in Samaria.. we see nothing that they were waiting for them or to have a meeting with them regarding this action. This was written from Peter and John perspective to go to them. That is all that is written.

Same in Acts 19. Paul laid hands on the newly baptized believers so the Holy Ghost could come upon them and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

Acts 19 1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John

[Yahsway]

The gifts of God are without repentance.

[Sola Scriptora]

Pariah:

You are confused. In don't know exactly what you believe, and you sure don't know what I believe. Are you a cessassionist, yes or no?

18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

[Guest Pariah]

Hi Botz,

By the way I constantly reassess the things that I believe against Scripture...and not everything is conclusive...I am always open to change that is in line with the word of G-d.

You said...

I believe scriptures says that we are not to glorify the Holy Spirit at all so it should not even reach being a constant thing. The moment we stop honoring the Son, we are not honoring the Father. You cannot honor the Father by honoring the Holy Spirit.

Where does it say this?

John 5: 22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

When you honor the Holy Spirit... guess what? That is not honoring the Son... thus that is not honoring the Father.

Exclusive of the Holy Spirit being God? No. Exclusive because of the role of the Holy Ghost as the Divine Witness? Yes.

How is God glorified?

John 13: 31Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

No Holy Spirit here either.

John 17: 1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Again... no Holy Spirit here? The only way God the Father can be glorified is through the Son. The role of the Holy Ghost as the Divine Witness means he that dwells in us must decrease as far as speaking of himself part, so that Jesus Christ may increase.

Where does the words of the Holy Spirit comes from?

John 16: 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

So if the Holy Spirit will not speak of himself.... why are people speaking of the Holy Spirit as if he is running the show or the head of the Church? What is the sole purpose of whatever the Holy Spirit does?

John 16: 14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Where does the fruits and the gifts of the Spirit come from?

Philippians 1: 6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: ....

9And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ; 11Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

What is the witness factor between a false witness and a true witness?

John 5: 31If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. 32There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. 33Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.

What did John the Baptist do?

John 3: 28Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. 29He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom

[Guest Pariah]

The gifts of God are without repentance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Matthew 24 :23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before. 26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

[Guest Pariah]

Pariah:

You are confused.  In don't know exactly what you believe, and you sure don't know what I believe.  Are you a cessassionist, yes or no?

18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sola,

2 Thessalonians 3: 1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

6Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

14And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

I shall withdraw for obviously you are preaching something else in His name and gorifying something else in His name.... and I know that the Indwelling Holy Spirit would not do that. This is the end of edification between you and me. I turn you over to the Lord by the grace of God. Amen.

[Sola Scriptora]

The verse I qouted there Pariah is Ephesians 2:18, and it doesn't agree wtih your statements.

Now then, no need to "withdraw". I asked you a simple question--are you a cessassionist, yes or no. This is a convenient time fro you to attempt to "withdraw"! What are you trying to hide--your doctrinal presuppositions you bring to the Word?

Lastly, I am no preaching another gospel or spirit. You don't know what you are talking about. You keep making that false accusation, as if saying itover and over makes it true. You couldn't prove that accusation anymore than you could prove the moon is made of Swiss cheese.

Now then, are you a cessassionist?

Edited January 14, 2005 by Sola Scriptora