Arthur Durnan Posted January 12, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,782 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 49 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/14/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 12, 2005 How can a divorced preacher teach biblical principles re holy matrimony as in Matthew 19 and personally set a Godly example for others? Wouldn't he, by his round-robin marital history, have to omit Jesus Christ on lifetime marriage? http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barracuda Posted January 12, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 36 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 174 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/12/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/08/1967 Share Posted January 12, 2005 How can a divorced preacher teach biblical principles re holy matrimony as in Matthew 19 and personally set a Godly example for others? Wouldn't he, by his round-robin marital history, have to omit Jesus Christ on lifetime marriage? http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How about a homosexual? How would they know about marriage? How about an adulterer who is still in his original marriage, but cheats on his wife with countless women? Is the adulterer still more worthy then a once-divorced man who has been faithful to his second wife since they met? What hypocritical standard would you like to pull out of the closet for this test? You cannot use Jesus as the standard, because we are all HUMAN!!! Jesus was not human, but God incarnate. If you are going to use Jesus as the standard then there is no one who is qualified for ministry. What hypocrisy!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barracuda Posted January 12, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 36 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 174 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/12/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/08/1967 Share Posted January 12, 2005 (edited) How can a divorced preacher teach biblical principles re holy matrimony as in Matthew 19 and personally set a Godly example for others? Wouldn't he, by his round-robin marital history, have to omit Jesus Christ on lifetime marriage? http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Also consider that there are countless number of divorced people in your congregation. Who would better minister to these people - some young pastor who was married at 19 and has never known the pain and agony of divorce, or someone who's been "through the ringer" at least once and knows what it's like to have to deal with something like this. That's why I laugh at the Catholic Church and their marital counseling by Priests who are bound by a vow of celibacy. How are they qualified to counsel me on marriage? What do they know about it personally? Reminds me of the example of the Uncle versus the father. The Uncle is single and has never had kids, but yet he comes over to my house and sees my children playing. The child does something wrong and the Uncle leaves my house with the impression that the child is a bad child, based on his hour long visit, and this one bad incident. Meanwhile, a month goes by and the child is extremely well behaved and eventually grows into a responsible adult and ends up becoming a leader in the community. His Uncle knows this child based on one bad experience and won't allow this child to gain the respect of the community based on one bad experience. So the child never runs for Mayor, never gets the chance to run for Congress, and eventually he misses out on his chance at the White House, all because his Uncle formed a bad opinion of this child, based on a one-hour visit and one bad experience when the child was very young. Meanwhile the Uncle is an adulterer who never married because he was too selfish to want to share his life with a woman. His idea of intimacy lasts an hour and then he's more the willing to "kick her to the curb". But yet the Uncle is a well respected member of the community and he actually is the Chairman of the City Council. He's got a spotless reputation, and the community adores and looks up to this guy. Sure, he sleeps around, but he's never been divorced, and he's never been married, therefore he has no wife to cheat on. He's a grand man. Meanwhile the father goes through life and ends up divorcing the childs mother because the woman cheated on him. The father remarries, and takes the child with him. The father remains extremely faithful to his second wife, and they have another child. The father works hard to make ends meet and struggle to get by on his income, even working two jobs to pay the bills. But he's faithful to his wife, and his children. The father never runs for public office because of the embarassment of his divorce and past history. He ends his life in poverty and his children go on to be well respected and adjusted members of the community. So in the eyes of the community we have the Uncle, who never married, and basically runs the town via the City Council. He's well respected and looked up to and even idolized by citizens far and wide, even though everyone knows he's got more mistresses then you can count on both hands. Then we have the father. The father is scorned by the community because of his mistake when he was young. He had a divorce so shame on him. Even though the father remarries and remains faithful to his new wife the community never forgives him and casts him out to be forced into a life of isolation and solitude where he barely gets by working several dead end jobs just to pay the bills. Yeah, the world views the Uncle as a great person. But the father - he's a pariah! Who would you rather have as your minister? The Uncle or the father? If you are the Catholic Church you choose the Uncle every day and twice on Sunday, especially if he is a homosexual. He's PERFECT!!!! No church would ever consider the father. Edited January 12, 2005 by barracuda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work in Progress Posted January 12, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 123 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,111 Content Per Day: 0.39 Reputation: 35 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/29/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted January 12, 2005 Yeah, except your forgot to address the fact that Convicted Murderers, Drug Dealers, Homosexuals, and the like are all in ministry now, but yet someone who gets divorced is a pariah in the church. Apples and Oranges. And, any church that considers a divorced person a "pariah" is seriously lacking. And, my comments about individual responsibility were general comments about the problem of divorce. No need to take them personally. And, any church that says you can't be a member because you are divorced is another church you want nothing to do with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IslandRose Posted January 12, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 476 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 5,266 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 63 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/21/1954 Share Posted January 12, 2005 1Timothy 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. 8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; 9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. 11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. This is my understanding of the situation. After having grown up a pastor's daughter and now the wife of a pastor for almost 31 years, you know that I have seen some tragic stories in my life. I believe that a pastor or a deacon is suppose to have an exemplary life. There are very high standards set in the scriptures for one who is given the job of pastor or deacon. The Bible says they are to be blameless. A high standard indeed. It doesn't say perfect, but there should be nothing that sticks to their reputation that can be thrown in their face whenever they present the gospel. Even the behavior of their children can disqualify a person from the position. (One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;) I believe that there are many ministries that a person who has been divorced or has come from other sins that you, barracuda, mention, but I personally believe that God holds, and consequently WE should hold, those in leadership positions to the standard that the word sets. Now the sad part is , The Bible tells us that Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. I believe that when God put a call in your heart to preach, that calling is with you forever. But some have disqualified themselves from certain positions by bad decisions in their past. They can deal with this in two ways. They can become bitter, declaring that it is all so unfair and turn away, or they can find ways to use the talents God has given them in other areas of ministry other than pastor or deacon. Now I have been out of the States so long, I really don't know all the ways of churches in the States these days. When I left we had song leaders and they led the choir and congregation in praise. I don't understand how someone who has been divorced cannot hold that position. In fact waaaaaaay back in the late 60's our own music director was a young man you had been divorced and remarried. He had once felt the call to preach, but now used his gifts to serve the Lord and last I heard of him, he was still serving the Lord in the music ministry of a large church in Cincinnati. I believe that God honors us when we do things His way. The modern church makes lots of excuses for sin and tries to make everyone happy, but you must remember that God isn't necessarily out to make us "happy". His goal is that we might "be conformed to the image of his Son. " Sometimes that is a painful process. IR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR-OCDS Posted January 12, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 429 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted January 12, 2005 That's why I laugh at the Catholic Church and their marital counseling by Priests who are bound by a vow of celibacy. How are they qualified to counsel me on marriage? What do they know about it personally? First off, in counseling people who are about to get married, it doesn't require the counselor be married, because the counseling involves the couple talking and asking questions of each other. That being said, priest had parents, they know more about marriage than you suppose. Also, today it is mostly married couple's who help prepare couples for marriage. All the parishes I know of, have couple to couple ministries, where married couples meet with those couples seeking to get married. If you are the Catholic Church you choose the Uncle every day and twice on Sunday, especially if he is a homosexual. He's PERFECT!!!! False bogus statement. I think I see an agenda here, which is driven by bitterness and anger. You need to deal with this before you are able have a rational discussion on this matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barracuda Posted January 12, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 36 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 174 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/12/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/08/1967 Share Posted January 12, 2005 False bogus statement. I think I see an agenda here, which is driven by bitterness and anger. You need to deal with this before you are able have a rational discussion on this matter. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tell that to the Homosexual Bishop of the New Hampshire Episcopal Diocese. No agenda here. Merely pointing out the hypocrisy of the church in dealing with various situations. If I'm quiet and keep my sexual sin "in the closet", versus being public with my mistakes and holding myself accountable for all to see the church will take "in the closet" everytime, and choose never to forgive someone who made a mistake years ago, versus someone living in unrepentant sin on a daily basis. Thanks for your considerate false judgment upon me and my situation, of which you know nothing about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR-OCDS Posted January 12, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 429 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted January 12, 2005 Tell that to the Homosexual Bishop of the New Hampshire Episcopal Diocese. The Episcopal Church isn't part of the Catholic Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barracuda Posted January 12, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 36 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 174 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/12/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/08/1967 Share Posted January 12, 2005 Tell that to the Homosexual Bishop of the New Hampshire Episcopal Diocese. The Episcopal Church isn't part of the Catholic Church. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, but how many incidents of homosexual priests would you like me to exhibit for you? Well, at least the ones that admit to it anyway. How about the pedophiles? The church is in full denial on that one, even with all the lawsuits they've encountered. They still refuse to clean up their mess. Yet, their "celibate" homosexual priests are more qualified then a heterosexual divorced man who is forever branded an outcast by the church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR-OCDS Posted January 12, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 429 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted January 12, 2005 (edited) Tell that to the Homosexual Bishop of the New Hampshire Episcopal Diocese. The Episcopal Church isn't part of the Catholic Church. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, but how many incidents of homosexual priests would you like me to exhibit for you? Well, at least the ones that admit to it anyway. How about the pedophiles? The church is in full denial on that one, even with all the lawsuits they've encountered. They still refuse to clean up their mess. Yet, their "celibate" homosexual priests are more qualified then a heterosexual divorced man who is forever branded an outcast by the church. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The Catholic Church has never approved of homosexual acts or pedophilia. The fact that it happened is wrong, and is being handled in an agressive manor. Also, for the most part, the Catholic Church handled cases of sexual abuse of minors, the same way that other institutions, both secular and religious handled them. Twenty plus years ago, rape and molestation cases were always kept quiet, for the sake of the victim. The Catholic Church in the United States, only makes up 1/16 of the Catholic Church. So, you're painting with a broad brush here. Based on what you've been posting, my guess is there are other reasons than your divorce, as to why various churches have rejected your quest to become a minister. Edited January 12, 2005 by JimR-OCDS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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