JimR-OCDS

A wise and holy man once told me, " when the reason not to sin, becomes stronger than the desire, we will over come the temptation." Love for God will make the reason strong, and it is through his grace that we grow in love. "God can not be grasped, except through love." Author of the "Cloud of Unknowing." Prayer is the path of love. Without prayer, you can not know, love and serve God.

Constantine was the first Roman Emperor who was a Christian. Is that what you meant? As far as Christians thinking Jesus was born on the 25th, like youreself, most of us are fully aware that there is no record of the exact day, or even month Jesus was born, yet we do celebrate it anyway. If we celebrated on July 25th instead, you likely would have said the same thing, no? The important thing isn't what day he was born, or what day we celebrate his birth, but that he was, in fact, born. Actually Constantine didn't become a Christian until he was on his death-bed and it is believed that he did so, "just in case the Christians are right." Constantine's "Edict of Religious Tolerance," which gave Christianity the right to exist, but didn't end persecution. Arians persecuted Christians as well as his brother, the Emperor of the East, who wanted to return Roman Paganism to the official religion. There were many varying beliefs among Christians, gnosticism was still around and Arianism, was growing. The end the conflicts, Constantine called for the Bishops of the Church, to call the Council of Necea, in order for the Church to set down, the beliefs of the Christian Church. Constantine had no part in writing doctrine, or theological opinion. He left that up to the Biships themselves. These would be the core belief's the Church has held for the past 1700 years.

I just read the story about the Gospel of Judas, this morning. The date is 4th century and validated by carbon-14 dating. It was written in Coptic and some believe if may have been copied from Greek. It is Gnostic writing and the account is that Jesus asked Judas, to help him to get rid of his physical body, so that he could live in his spiritual body. Jesus asked Judas to turn him over to the Jewish leaders, so that they would in turn, have him put to death by the Romans. This fits right in with Gnostic heresy, in that they believe that the flesh was evil. The accepted suicide as a noble act, which is probably why the gospel of Judas, doesn't mention his suicide. They also beleived that only those who had been given special secrets by Jesus, would be saved. They had other wiered beliefs, which is why nothing they wrote was ever included in the canon or accepted by the early Church fathers. The gospel of Thomas was also a Gnostic writing.

Well I can buy the professor's theory on the parting of the Red Sea, in fact, it's probably what actually happened. However, Jesus walking on Ice thing begs too many questions, even if you accepted that there might be a possibility that this is what actually happened. First of course is the gospel accounts of the conditions at the time, i.e. wind rain etc. 2nd, Jesus calls Peter forth, and as Peter begins to sink, yells for the Lord to save him. Was Jesus standing on ice next to where Peter was sinking in water, without Peter knowing ice was there? Highly unlikely. Also, we're not talking about a pond or a lake here, but a sea. Even if Jesus walked across a section on ice, how would he have known where the boat the apostles were in, was? Who would dare walk out across the sea on a section of ice, in the middle of a storm? Also, didn't this happen at night? BTW, the Professor is an oceanographer, not a Biblical Scholar. That all being said, I find it interesting the anger that this has generated in the Christian world, even in this forum. These same Christians are quick to condemn the Catholic Church's confrontation with Galileo, even though that confrontation had to do with theology, not science.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 [baynes] Further more we talk about the Muslims being a "warring bunch" but lets take a look at the history of the Christian world. WW I - started and fought by Christians WW II - Started and fought by Christians Two of the biggest wars in the history of humanity! Yet the Muslims are a warring bunch? Even if we look at the history of medivial Europe we see much war all the time. France, Britain, Germany, Spain all looted the countries and cultures around the world making war on them! We only need to look at the Spanish and how they looted the Aztecs to see the reality of that! Furthermore in the medivial ages we look at the Muslim world vs the Christian world we see that the Muslim world was the light of the world - Baghdad was the scientific capital of the world! And that was during the peak of Islamic empire. Then came the downfall of Islamic empire after nearly a 1000 years when Muslim nations become fragmented and disunited (which you see in todays world) - When you talk about Saddam Hussein and such people dont even refer to Islam because Saddam hussein was a communist and Islam and communism do not mix! And finally in conclusion I would say simply one thing. Please watch the PBS documentary: Islam Empire of Faith And you will see exactly how insignificant the crusades truly were against the Muslim Empire. While the Muslim empire spread across 3 continents the Crucades were being faught over Jeuresulem? 1 Place? And that was the might of the Christian empire that it could not topple one Islamic City! Amazing! The fact is and will remain (hopefully unless they change history books around) that the Crusades were actually Barbaric and totally unholy to defend a Church and doctrine which supported the killing of innocent women as witches, scientists as heritics and apostates as blasphemers! So much false information here, I can't address it all. But on just a few points; Hitler rejected Christianity when he was a teen. He later joined the Masons, which in those days, was automatic ex-communication from the Catholic Church. He later joined the Illuminati, a sect of the Free-Masons, and also dabled in the occult. Nazis were required to reject religious beliefs, especially Catholic beliefs. The Church didn't condemn people for the study of science, but in fact, all the great learning centers of Western Europe, were created by the Church. In the case of Galileo, Galileo got into trouble with the church, not over science, but theology. When he pushed Copernicus theory on the solar system, he was going not against the Church, but belief's held by scientist of the time. He then went to challenge the Church on theological issues, which he had no credentials in. Witch burnings, in primative and midevil cultures, belief in the power of witchcraft was real, and people feared them. Hence, persecution of witches wasn't limited to Christianity, but just about every other culture in history. In Europe, the greatest persecution of witches was by Henry XIII and the Church of England. The Church didn't bring war on the Muslims, but as the orginal post of this thread acurately shows, Islam had attacked non-muslim nations from it's early beginings. They conquered Spain and were within 200 miles of Paris, in the 9th century. Having experienced the assaulty and brutality of Muslims, Christianity vowed to stop them from spreading into the Europe. Consider what would happen if Christians conguered Saudi Arabia, shut down Mecca and forced the conversion to Christianity, of all Muslims,... what would the Islamic responce be? This is essentially the thing that Muslims did to Christianity, which brought the Crusades. According to the historian and former anglican nun, Karen Armstrong, who has been a consultent for PBS programs concerning Christianity, the producers have a definate bias against Christianity, and sway away from evidence that suppots traditional Chrisitan belief's, and lean heavily on anything that goes against traditional Christian beliefs. I wouldn't put too much faith in PBS documentaries on religion, regardless of which religion, but especially Christianity.

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He didn't mention anything about other faiths, but what he did teach is that we are not to hate, period. Give me scriptures to prove that Jesus taught us we were not to hate anything. I know of none. I also disagree that it is wrong to hate false religions. I hate every false religion with all of my being. That is different than hating the poor deluded souls that are members of false religions. How can a Christian not hate false religions? That is like asking me not to hate the devil. All false religions are demonically inspired, to lead those that follow them into hell. You will have to provide scripture to back up your position before I will even consider your position in this matter. Can't prove a negative. How bout you showing me where Jesus taught us to hate other religions? On the contrary, Jesus was kind to the Samaritan woman at the well, and also gave us the story of the "Good Samaritan," to show that the Jews of Jerusalem, were wrong to hate them because they believed that the Samaritans were following a false Judaism. You say it's OK to hate the religion, but not it's members. However, it's the members which make up the religion, so you can't hate the religion without at the same time, offending the members. Hate only leads to more hate, regardless how you try to justify it.

He didn't mention anything about other faiths, but what he did teach is that we are not to hate, period.

Hatred of the religion will eventually be followed by hatred of the members of that religion, it's the progression of the evil of hate. Jesus taught us to forgive, not hate and that includes other religions, even if you are being persecuted by the members of that religion. I just finished reading an excellent book on the concept of forgiving enemies. It's called' "Left To Tell : Discovering God Amidst the Rwandan Holocaust" by Immaculee Ilibagiza. From Amazon.com write up on the book. Immaculee Ilibagiza grew up in a country she loved, surrounded by a family she cherished. But in 1994 her idyllic world was ripped apart as Rwanda descended into a bloody genocide. Immaculee

What about the Inquisition? Groups within every major religion has done dirt. Some Christians have been guilty of crimes as terrible as any Muslim's worst. Crimes of this sort can be used to make generalizations about all or most adherents to those faiths or to discredit any religion. But are sweeping generalizations and the prejudices formed as their result really that useful or helpful? The crimes are to be condemned--not the criminals' religious affiliations. The only difference between the Inquisition and Islam's "Fatwa" is that, at some point Christians decided that it was probably a bad thing to brutally slaughter innocents in the name of God. Islam has never come to that realization. It's propagation has always depended entirely upon conquest. It becomes a real issue when the the crime and the religious affiliation become inextricably intertwined.

I watched a story about the crusades on the History Chanel. The so called "Christians" slaughtered the Muslims and the Jews that were with them. It wasn't just the Muslims.

What about the Inquisition? Groups within every major religion has done dirt. Some Christians have been guilty of crimes as terrible as any Muslim's worst. Crimes of this sort can be used to make generalizations about all or most adherents to those faiths or to discredit any religion. But are sweeping generalizations and the prejudices formed as their result really that useful or helpful? The crimes are to be condemned--not the criminals' religious affiliations. The only difference between the Inquisition and Islam's "Fatwa" is that, at some point Christians decided that it was probably a bad thing to brutally slaughter innocents in the name of God. Islam has never come to that realization. It's propagation has always depended entirely upon conquest. It becomes a real issue when the the crime and the religious affiliation become inextricably intertwined. The Church didn't slaughter anyone during the Spanish Inquisition, they didn't have the authority to put anyone to death. They would make the accusation and inquisition, then hand the person over to the King and Queen for punishment, which for the most part meant, deportation. The Inquisition actually began as a result of Jews and Muslims, receiving the sacraments of the Church, despite never having been Baptised. Many faked their baptisms for economic and social status. Hence, the Inquisition sought to remove abuses that were going on as a result. However, individuals got carried away and abused their authority. No one knows the exact number of people who died during the Inquisition, but historians agree that the number was about 2200.

The Jews don't hate Christians because of the Crussades. The Crussades were against Muslims in the Holy Land. Jews don't hate Christians, but have learned to be concerned about issues Christains promote in world politics. After all, they suffered centuries of persecution by Christians.

There are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. All it takes is 10% to carry out their hatred against Christians and Jews, to make it significant. The majority of Germans did not hate Jews, but it only took a minority of Germans, to carry out the Holocaust.