Dying Words...

[Botz]

Hi Frog.

I been around watching and reading many threads...sometimes I can't get too involved even if I want to if I am writing at length on other things...it is pretty time consuming...and it seems you have your work cut out here anyway with the numerous responses to your comments.

Just one last mention about the 'gift thing' without flogging the analogy to death.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

In Ephesians the word for gift 'doron' means specifically a sacrifice.

G-d has freely and volutarily paid the price for the sins of each one of us through the sacrifice of His only Son...the 'free gift' is that the price for our freedom from sin,forgiveness and eternal life has been paid in full.

When someone gives you a gift in order to utilize it you need to unwrap it and put it to the use it was designed for....jewellery,bicycle coat etc...it is no good staring at the present and saying its not really a free gift because it demands something of you..unwrapping...wearing or riding the object etc.

It is a bit like being in prison and having someone unlock your door and tell you that you are free to leave....but unless you walk out of your cell whether it is locked or not will make little difference to you.

There is a story of a Russian young officer in the Czar's army having lost a small fortune gambling...and he determines to shoot himself because he is ruined...however he drinks and falls asleep with his pistol on the table on top of the receipt for the money he owes to which he has added the words....

'So great a debt...who can repay?'

During the night the Czar is encouraging his troops and walks up to the young officers table where is is fast asleep and glancing down at the receipt he takes out his pen and writes a few words.

When the officer wakes up in the early hours he picks up the pistol and then looks with amazement at the words added at the foot of the receipt.

PAID IN FULL...signed Czar Alexander.

The Good News is that the price has been paid by Jesus the Messiah for each of us to be saved from a godless existence and the wages of sin.

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Kind Regards. Botz.

[georgesbluegirl]

Dear UndecidedFrog,

His last words were "Love one another."

I like that.

Me too.

[UndecidedFrog]

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

Dear Budman,

I'm just curious UF, If you died tonight, and actually found yourself standing before God, what would be the first thing you would say to Him?

If I died and found myself standing before god, I would ask him why has he not made himself known to me previously if he wished me to know him? Then I would ask him if and why he wishes to be worshipped.

Dear Botz,

Thanks for your response. However, I do not agree with everything you posted. The defining point of whether something is a gift or an offer is in the intent of the one giving/offering. Here are some simple examples:

1) You've won a free gift! It's a toaster. You can get a free toaster when you open an account of at least $500. What is the intent of the bank? Is this a gift or an offer? Does your picking it up and unwrapping it make if less an gift or offer?

2) Buy one get one free! Is the intent of the manufacturer to give you something free? What is the requirement? Is this a gift or an offer?

3) You have won a free 3-day vacation to FL. Just attend the 4 hour seminar on time-share condos, and get two free airplane tickets to FL! What are the requirements of this free vacation? Is this a gift or an offer?

4) You can have free salvation for your soul. All you have to do is to believe that Jesus christ is your lord, saviour and god, and you also have to repent your sins. What are the requirements for obtaining salvation? Is this a gift or an offer?

IMO, the god of the bible intends to OFFER salvation to those who minimally:

1) Believe in god

2) Repent their sins

I do not think the god of the bible intends for unbelievers or unrepentants to receive salvation. You see, there are requirements. Hence, salvation is an offer.

Dear Kroschild,

First, by your own words you are agnostic. Just thought you might want to know the common label for your beliefs.

Even after I have defined atheism to you, you do not believe me. LOL. You can think of me anyway you like. The fact is that I have no beliefs in god, hence I consider myself an atheist.

I think one of us got our wires crossed.

Please clarify.

You said:

So far I have not read any trying to pursuade us all that we are crazy. Can it be that something in atheism rings false?

I said that this is irrational reasoning. Just because you have not been persuaded by something, it does not follow that the something rings false. That was my point.

The thing is, there is a God or there isn't one. It's not just a matter of opinions; there is a truth to one of these.

I agree with your first sentence. I will also add that no one knows either way. If no one knows, what is the use of arguing about it? I know some christians will claim that they "know." But I don't buy subjective experience. Subjective experience is not validatable, hence they are invalid reasons for me to be convinced. I think whoever said that if one had sure knowledge, faith would not be needed. For what is faith but the belief without evidence. Some atheists I know would even stipulate that faith is the will to believe despite the evidence to the contrary!

Regards,

UndecidedFrog

[kroschild]

I agree with your first sentence. I will also add that no one knows either way. If no one knows, what is the use of arguing about it? I know some christians will claim that they "know." But I don't buy subjective experience. Subjective experience is not validatable, hence they are invalid reasons for me to be convinced. I think whoever said that if one had sure knowledge, faith would not be needed. For what is faith but the belief without evidence. Some atheists I know would even stipulate that faith is the will to believe despite the evidence to the contrary!

I disagree with what you claim most Christians have told you too--you cannot "know" that there is a God...if you could, then faith would be a moot point. I also believe that it takes more faith and more guts (because OUCH! if you're wrong) to be an atheist. I find it easier to believe in a creator than an accident. I have taken several classes on proving Christian faith without the Bible--archaeology, science, and philosophy--and all that I have learned point to yes. And as I took two of those classes, my faith was shaky--at one point I would have told you flat out that I didn't think there was a God. After my studies, I had to conclude that there was....I wish there was some way to share the scientific evidence with you and better explain why I believe (that it isn't blind faith) but oh wow, would it be hard over posts! If you are interested, I could attempt to do so over e-mail, or better yet put you in contact with the teacher LOL--I am but the student, after all.

Still seeking,

KrosChild

[UndecidedFrog]

Dear Kroschild,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

I disagree with what you claim most Christians have told you too--you cannot "know" that there is a God...if you could, then faith would be a moot point.

First of all, please re-read my quote. I did not claim that MOST christians have told me....I claimed that there are SOME christians who hold the view that they absolutely KNOW that there is a god. I happen to agree with you that if one had that certain knowledge, it would be disingenuous for that one to claim faith as well.

I also believe that it takes more faith and more guts (because OUCH! if you're wrong) to be an atheist.

First of all, it takes no belief or faith to not believe in gods (definition of atheism). You are trying to say it takes more money not to buy a car. How much money do you need not to buy anything? The answer is none.

You are trying out Pascal's wager on me. Please see the following website for a thorough debunking of that argument:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/

The main points are:

1) What makes you so sure that you are worshipping the correct god? There are at least 10,000 different gods to choose from. So the chances that you are worshipping the correct one is 1 out of 10,000. And if you happen to worship the incorrect one, you end up in the same place as a non-worshipper of the real one.

2) Do you think god would reward someone whose sole reason for belief is to win in this kind of a bet? Do you think an omniscient god could be so easily fooled? If so, is this god worth worshipping?

I find it easier to believe in a creator than an accident.

You can believe anyway you wish, be it easy or hard. I find it hard to accept that an alleged creator exist (who, BTW should be more complex than any of his alleged creations), who wasn't created himself.

I wish there was some way to share the scientific evidence with you and better explain why I believe (that it isn't blind faith) but oh wow, would it be hard over posts!

If it is any easier, you are welcome to PM me to present the evidence that has you convinced.

Regards,

UndecidedFrog

[kroschild]

Ok, some.

I actually read your comments in the other board about Pascall's argument in the other forum. Which is why I didn't ask you about your concern on this point. My point was more directed at my opening sentence about faith--that faith is something even atheists have to have--because evolution, big bang theory, etc are as difficult to prove as Christianity. Wasn't trying to convince you that Christianity should be believed in order to avoid hell, should it exist.

If it is any easier, you are welcome to PM me to present the evidence that has you convinced.

Actually, my classes were partially online--I may be able to get my teachers to re-activate the links to the articles we had to read--some of which were pro-evolution, by the way. It is difficult to establish a base and grow on it (takes too long for posts) over messaging. After I get the links (if I can) then we could PM after you already know the base I am coming from. And we could of course argue the base! LOL

The main points are:

1) What makes you so sure that you are worshipping the correct god? There are at least 10,000 different gods to choose from. So the chances that you are worshipping the correct one is 1 out of 10,000. And if you happen to worship the incorrect one, you end up in the same place as a non-worshipper of the real one.

2) Do you think god would reward someone whose sole reason for belief is to win in this kind of a bet? Do you think an omniscient god could be so easily fooled? If so, is this god worth worshipping?

Although I didn't mean to open this discussion, I won't ignore your questions!

1. I have not (obviously) studied all of these religions (containing the 10,000 gods you mention), but I do have a basic grounding in the beliefs of Hinduism, Judaism, Islam, Greek and Roman mythology, Wiccan, a handful of Far Eastern religions (Buddaism, Confuscious, etc), and several pagan religions (other than Wiccan). Based on my studies, I find Christianity to be the closest as evidenced by science and my own obsesrvations. Plus, many of these teach that if you merely live a good life you are saved, or if you believe in a Creator you are saved...so even if one of these is correct, my percentage of "ending up in the same place" goes down considerably.

2. Um, no--I don't believe God can be fooled by this type of reasoning. Which is why I would never suggest someone believe based on an attempt to obtain a "get out of jail free card."

Looking forward to your reply,

KrosChild

Edited January 15, 2005 by kroschild

[UndecidedFrog]

Dear Kroschild,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

My point was more directed at my opening sentence about faith--that faith is something even atheists have to have--because evolution, big bang theory, etc are as difficult to prove as Christianity. Wasn't trying to convince you that Christianity should be believed in order to avoid hell, should it exist.

Please do not confuse atheism with being an evolutionist or a big-bangist. An atheist is one who does not have any beliefs in any god/s. An atheist does not need to also subscribe to evolution or big-bang. There are christians who subscribe to evolution and big bang as well. It is not as cut and dried as you are suggesting.

I still disagree with you that atheism needs faith. Faith is the will to believe without evidence. In this case, we are talking about the belief in god/s. Since, by definition atheists have no beliefs in god/s, how can you derive that atheists need faith? Again, please address my analogy:

You are trying to say it takes more money not to buy a car. How much money do you need not to buy anything? The answer is none.

Atheists do not buy into god-beliefs. Atheists need no faith.

but I do have a basic grounding in the beliefs of Hinduism, Judaism, Islam, Greek and Roman mythology, Wiccan, a handful of Far Eastern religions (Buddaism, Confuscious, etc

You have only touched on the current religions. You have not mentioned any of the older religions.

Regards,

UndecidedFrog

[kroschild]

Frog,

According to the dictionary:

Atheist: One who denies the existence of God or gods.

Agnostic: One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.

One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

An agnostic is the one who fits your analogy! A true atheist does not "buy nothing"--they claim that there is NO God, and prescribe to some other theory of existence--otherwise they are merely denying religion based on their desire to deny religion, I would assume that they have some other theory. Agnostics sit back and "buy nothing". I tried to explain this before, but perhaps the dictionary can define where I cannot?

I know it is not that clean-cut. My Christian science teacher personally believes in some "atheist" beliefs, and does not think they go against Christianity. I was generalizing for the sake of space

Also, how are pagan religions and Greek and Roman mythologies modern? The definition of "pagan" religions I was using was ancient religions. Those practiced by the Mesopotamians, Egyptians, etc.

Eagerly awaiting the next phase in our discussion of minds,

KrosChild

PS This is a great discussion!

[Botz]

Hi Frog.

You obviously want to uphold your definition of a gift...but in doing so I think you miss the whole thrust of the message in Romans 6:23...(by the way I am glad you have read the Bible through several times...although I notice you never seem to remark about the Scriptures that are laid before you).

The point is that the actual thing needed to be done to give you me or anyone forgiveness of sins and eternal life has been done...it has been accomplished...there is nothing else that can be done...G-ds own Son is the gift and the price has been paid....and it has been done even when we didn't want it or didn't think we needed it and were actually far off from G-d and even enemies that struggled against Him in one way or another.

By the way I am one of them Christians that are 100% convinced that they know G-d and have been forgiven...I was also an evangelical atheist of sorts before I was converted..utterly convinced of the non-existence of G-d...it was an immense surprise when He broke into my life....may you too get the surprise of your life.

Best. Botz.

[UndecidedFrog]

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

Dear kroschild:

The Dictionary definitions are not accurate in my opinion. I have already posted the latin roots of the word atheism:

A = without

theism = belief in god/s.

Atheism = without belief in god/s.

Hence, those you call agnostics are atheists (my definition above) and those that you call atheists (dictionary definition) are also atheists (my definition above). They both are without beliefs in god/s. In atheist circles that I have seen, my definition is the accepted one.

So, according to my definition of atheism, how does an atheist require more faith than a christian? How does no belief turn into great belief?

Also, how are pagan religions and Greek and Roman mythologies modern? The definition of "pagan" religions I was using was ancient religions. Those practiced by the Mesopotamians, Egyptians, etc

Where did the concept of limiting god-beliefs to "modern" beliefs come from? Are you discounting older beliefs just because they aren't modern? Do you think modernity equates with potential truth?

Dear Botz,

By the way I am one of them Christians that are 100% convinced that they know G-d and have been forgiven

Hmm. I don't know how to take this. Do you mean to say that you are CONVINCED that you know god, or that you KNOW god? There is a difference, you know?

The point is that the actual thing needed to be done to give you me or anyone forgiveness of sins and eternal life has been done...it has been accomplished...there is nothing else that can be done...G-ds own Son is the gift and the price has been paid....and it has been done even when we didn't want it or didn't think we needed it and were actually far off from G-d and even enemies that struggled against Him in one way or another.

Everything has been done? There is nothing required for me to do to obtain christian salvation? Are you telling me that I don't have to do the following to obtain salvation:

1) Believe Jesus christ is lord, saviour and god

2) Repent my sins

If I don't have to do the above items, then I retract my statement that salvation is an offer, and I am willing to say that it is indeed a free gift. However, if you tell me that I am indeed required to do at least the above 2 items, then I stand by my original position that it is an offer, and not a gift.

...I was also an evangelical atheist of sorts before I was converted..utterly convinced of the non-existence of G-d...it was an immense surprise when He broke into my life....may you too get the surprise of your life.

I was never an evangelical atheist. I really don't care if others disbelieve as I do. Also, I am not utterly convinced that there is no god. I do not know if there is a god. Well, I certainly hope god (if he exists) will break into my life and make himself known to me so that I may believe. Until that time, I shall remain without beliefs in any god/s.

Regards,

UndecidedFrog