Guest LadyC Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Hey Kwik, Regarding salvation: I wonder if the original poster was asking, is it possible for a Jew, who trusts in God, BUT DOES NOT ACCEPT Yeshua as the Messiah, for that person to be saved. I suppose one could make a case that salvation according to the OT was more than believing in Yeshua as Messiah since it was not clear who Yeshua was other than prophecies about his coming. I suppose a saved Jew before CHRIST was one who believed in God, apart from CHRIST. We know Yeshua is God the son so how can you believe in God today but not believe in God the son? It seems unlikely today you could believe in God without also believing in his son. But I wonder if he is asking this. Can there be devout Jews today who follow Torah religiously but have been blinded to the truth, can they be saved like it was in OT times? salvation was ALWAYS based on the messiah. in the OT days, it was based on the belief in the coming messiah. in the NT days, it is based on the knowledge that the messiah has come. non-messianic jews who do not believe that Jesus is the messiah are as yet unsaved... because belief that Jesus is who He says He is is imperitive for salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesj Posted January 1, 2015 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 97 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 16 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted January 1, 2015 (edited) Hello Shiloh: Paul deals with the Gentiles in Romans 1 and tells them they are sinners. Paul then deals with the Jews in Romans 2 and tells them they are sinners. In Romans 3:9 Paul says both "Jew and Gentile" are under sin and in verse 23 Paul concludes and tells them "ALL HAVE SINNED", that is, both Jew and Gentile are sinners. In Romans 2:28,29: "Four things, Paul says, will allow us to recognize a true Jew in God's sight: 1. He does not emphasize outward and external signs (v.28) 2. His heart has been circumcised (revealed before God) (v.29) 3. The Spirit's knife ("the word of God"; Heb 4:12) has performed the circumcision on the heart (v. 29) 4. God's praise drowns out the "praise" of men (v.29) Continuing the diatribe format which he began in 2:1, Paul now moves to raise and answer the objections which he knew would flow from his Jewish readers in Rome. After all, he has just dismantled the superstructure of the Jewish religion -- in the name of the gospel." Boa, K., & Kruidenier, W. (2000) Romans (Vol. 6, p.85), Nashville, Tn:Broadman & Holman Publishers. Edited January 1, 2015 by charlesj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Hello Shiloh: Paul deals with the Gentiles in Romans 1 and tells them they are sinners. Paul then deals with the Jews in Romans 2 and tells them they are sinners. In Romans 3:9 Paul says both "Jew and Gentile" are under sin and in verse 23 Paul concludes and tells them "ALL HAVE SINNED", that is, both Jew and Gentile are sinners. In Romans 2:28,29: "Four things, Paul says, will allow us to recognize a true Jew in God's sight: 1. He does not emphasize outward and external signs (v.28) 2. His heart has been circumcised (revealed before God) (v.29) 3. The Spirit's knife ("the word of God"; Heb 4:12) has performed the circumcision on the heart (v. 29) 4. God's praise drowns out the "praise" of men (v.29) Continuing the diatribe format which he began in 2:1, Paul now moves to raise and answer the objections which he knew would flow from his Jewish readers in Rome. After all, he has just dismantled the superstructure of the Jewish religion -- in the name of the gospel." Boa, K., & Kruidenier, W. (2000) Romans (Vol. 6, p.85), Nashville, Tn:Broadman & Holman Publishers. I understand and agree with all of that. My point is that Paul is not redefining "Jew." He is anticipating how a Jew would object to his argument and he is essentially telling Jews what it really means to be a Jew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted January 1, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.70 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted January 1, 2015 Hello Shiloh: Paul deals with the Gentiles in Romans 1 and tells them they are sinners. Paul then deals with the Jews in Romans 2 and tells them they are sinners. In Romans 3:9 Paul says both "Jew and Gentile" are under sin and in verse 23 Paul concludes and tells them "ALL HAVE SINNED", that is, both Jew and Gentile are sinners. In Romans 2:28,29: "Four things, Paul says, will allow us to recognize a true Jew in God's sight: 1. He does not emphasize outward and external signs (v.28) 2. His heart has been circumcised (revealed before God) (v.29) 3. The Spirit's knife ("the word of God"; Heb 4:12) has performed the circumcision on the heart (v. 29) 4. God's praise drowns out the "praise" of men (v.29) Continuing the diatribe format which he began in 2:1, Paul now moves to raise and answer the objections which he knew would flow from his Jewish readers in Rome. After all, he has just dismantled the superstructure of the Jewish religion -- in the name of the gospel." Boa, K., & Kruidenier, W. (2000) Romans (Vol. 6, p.85), Nashville, Tn:Broadman & Holman Publishers. It is really so simple, but so many miss the idea that the book of Romans is written alternately to Gentile believers and Jewish believers, who are having a conflict. Who is a true Jew? A Jewish person who believes on Yeshua/Jesus. True Jew is another way of saying a saved Jew by faith in the Jewish Messiah, Jesus. Paul is explaining the difference between an unsaved Jew and a saved Jew. In scripture, and unsaved Jew is still called a Jew. And no where in scripture is a Gentile ever called a Jew. So, your reference fails to understand the discussion in Romans. No where are the unsaved Jews addressed directly. This is a letter to the church, dealing with a misunderstanding of believing Gentiles concerning the place of Jews and differences between unsaved Jews and saved Jews. (Romans is answering question after the Jewish people both saved and unsaved were expelled from Rome, and later allowed to return. Upon return, the Gentile believers were not allowing the Jewish believers an equal place in the church) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted January 1, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.85 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted January 1, 2015 Hey Kwik, Regarding salvation: I wonder if the original poster was asking, is it possible for a Jew, who trusts in God, BUT DOES NOT ACCEPT Yeshua as the Messiah, for that person to be saved. I suppose one could make a case that salvation according to the OT was more than believing in Yeshua as Messiah since it was not clear who Yeshua was other than prophecies about his coming. I suppose a saved Jew before CHRIST was one who believed in God, apart from CHRIST. We know Yeshua is God the son so how can you believe in God today but not believe in God the son? It seems unlikely today you could believe in God without also believing in his son. But I wonder if he is asking this. Can there be devout Jews today who follow Torah religiously but have been blinded to the truth, can they be saved like it was in OT times? salvation was ALWAYS based on the messiah. in the OT days, it was based on the belief in the coming messiah. in the NT days, it is based on the knowledge that the messiah has come. non-messianic jews who do not believe that Jesus is the messiah are as yet unsaved... because belief that Jesus is who He says He is is imperitive for salvation. Greetings LadyC, Hmmmmm. Passages like these seem to contradict what you said-Genesis 15:6: 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. 7 And he said unto him, I [am] the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it. Because what you said doesn't stick with me, you are going to have to persuade me that what you said is the truth. So, If you don't mind at your convenience I would like to read some references in the OT that alludes to what you said- salvation in the ot is based on believing in the coming messiah rather than on believing in God as I cited from Genesis. Thanks, Spock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 it will have to wait a day or two most likely, because it's hard to focus long enough to give this the attention it deserves while i've got a house full of kids and grandkids. but if you'd like to start with a little digging on your own, what you need to be looking for in scripture is where to find Jesus in the OT. He is there, not mentioned by name, but He is throughout the OT if you look for Him. the prophecies of the coming of Christ were central to hebrew faith. always. israel's hope was in the coming messiah. when a believer died, they were in sheol until Christ's death. He spent three days in Hades, remember? had Christ not defeated death during those three days, the believers prior to Christ would still be waiting. i wish i had more time to dedicate to this right now, really. but i literally have too many distractions ranging from ages 3 to 28. maybe if you're not interested in doing a little digging on your own, someone else could step in and expound a bit between now and sunday evening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesj Posted January 1, 2015 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 97 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 16 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted January 1, 2015 (edited) Hello Qnts2: I think we can agree on most of what you said. I don't find anywhere in the Book of Romans that Paul said there was a conflict between the returning Jews and the Christians in a church assembly. I do know that in 49 A.D. Claudius expelled the Jews (and of course not knowing there was a difference, he expelled the Christians also. We see this with Aquila with his wife Priscilla in Acts 18:2.) The return of the Jews to Rome was around 54 A.D. and Paul wrote Romans around 57 A.D. Do you think this "strife" was going on for three years there in Rome between the Christians and the returning Jews? We find the "theme" of Romans in Ro.1:16,17-- The gospel is God's Power for salvation. The letter to the Romans above everything else is an explanation of how God justifies the sinner. The verb in Greek for "justify" is dikanoo. In Romans it is used 14 times and in Galatians 8 times. In the rest of the N.T. it is only used 14 times. So, this is what we are dealing with in Romans. I am not sure what you mean "that Gentiles wouldn't let the Jews have an 'equal' place in the church." You may be correct in the divisions upon the return, but I can't find it in Paul's writing(s). thanks for your input, In Christ, charlesj Edited January 2, 2015 by charlesj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted January 1, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.85 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted January 1, 2015 No rush and I have no desire to research this topic (not in my priority list of topics to research). I feel secure in what I think, so unless someone persuades me otherwise, I'm okay with what I think is accurate. I also have no problem saying these words- "we will have to agree to disagree...." Enjoy your family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 ok, i'll agree to disagree too. maybe someday you'll want to research it, but if it's not something you're interested in, i probably won't come back to the topic to try to explain. i'd rather save things like that for those who are interested in learning more. (that's not a slight, by the way, i just respect the fact that this is not on your list of priorities to learn about.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 what do you think i was talking about? the entire hebrew faith was based on prophecy of..... the coming of the messiah. those who died prior to Christ's coming were held in sheol until after Christ died on the cross and defeated death. i'll make a basket. like i said it will have to be after sunday afternoon before i can get to it, but you really just don't sound interested. i don't really feel like putting a whole lot of time and effort into "persuading" someone who just wants to debate for the sake of debate. so let me ask you before i commit to such an endeavor. do you believe Jesus was present in the OT scriptures, and was central to the hebrew faith? or do you think Jesus only came to exist at the time of the miraculous conception? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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