If salvation is the gift of God..

[Khristeeanos]

As far as the aortic sense goes it does apply to the continuality (if that's a word, LOL) of the state of believing and salvation. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

lol. I don't know. Maybe continuity or something.

As for your post directed towards me, I just say that we must assume that the warnings given in the NT that are directed at Christians are there for a reason.

Like in the following passage:

Galatians 5:19-21; 6:7-10

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions, and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like.  I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God...Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked.  A man reaps what he sows.  The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.  Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.  Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

[JLW001]

Calvin, I'm going to ask you a few questions to make sure I understand what you are saying.

1.) What did Jesus mean when He said that none can come to Him unless the Father draws them? Who are these elect of whom Paul speaks in 2 Timothy 2?

2.) Do you believe that a human being would choose to follow Jesus of their own free will? Remember that before we receive the spirit of God that we are 100% sin led and totally living in the flesh.

3.) What did Paul mean when he spoke of bearing one anothers burdens and helping a brother who has sinned get back on track? (I think that's in 2nd Corinthians)

4.) Do you truly believe that 1 John is not talking about Christians? If so, then who is he talking to?

5.) Do you know of anyone who is completely free from his flesh and thus free from sin?

6.) Do you truly believe that you do not commit sin? Remember what Christ said sin was?

7.) If you believe that you are free from sin and that Christ did not die for ALL of your sins, then I caution you to read 1 John again with an open mind.

8.) So, you think that Paul was talking about wrestling with his flesh before Jesus brought him to conversion?

9.) If you answered yes to 8, then what was it in Paul that enabled him to say....

18I know I am rotten through and through so far as my old sinful nature is concerned. No matter which way I turn, I can

[JLW001]

I just read the link you showed, Calvin. Maybe I'm missing something here, but it appears that they are saying that the term "draw" as in ...unless the Father draws...should be translated as it was translated in some obscure book Cant. 1:3. I'm not sure. Maybe I'm misunderstanding this.

However, it is not just mentioned in John. Look at Romans 8:

28And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

(note: I think the word translated as predestined should be translated as foreordained).

Calvin, if we are able to say that I am saved because I chose to believe in Jesus, then it is not all the work of God. Then we played a part by choosing God. We could boast that, "yeah, Jesus died for me, but it was me choosing Him that brought His saving power to me." Do you really think that this is true?

How else can Romans 8:28-30 be interpreted?

[Khristeeanos]

How else can Romans 8:28-30 be interpreted?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Romans 8:28-30 needs to be intrepreted in light of the entire Bible, not just a few passages that are given more emphasis by a group of people.

Paul had just got through warning Christians that if they lived according to the sinful nature they would die spiritually.

So how can predetermined salvation be true if people can cast away their salvation?

[Guest wilburnh]

I apologize, this is the first time I've been on since my last post. Still in the process of getting out of the service... tomorrow is my last day thank God. Anyway I'm busy and will continue to be busy for a while so I don't know how in-depth I'll be able to get and how soon but don't worry I will get back lol.

Just want to make some quick points on some things that stood out. you said that if we believe then it is not all on Him but partly on us because we 'accepted'. This is the idea that I would like to address. The link that you read dealt with this and to my understanding it was the majority of interpretations that saw the translation as saying that God makes the way and not that we have to come (again I apologize if this is not clear, I'm in a hurry but I think you can understand what I'm saying since you read the link). The way that you view it, God made us this way so we have no choice and on the same note He made sinners the way that they are and they have no choice to accept christ and so have been made to be tortured in hell. I think that this flies in the face of, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Right here It says that the Spirit(Jesus) is working on our heart and we have the choice on whether or not to accept it. Do I think that this means that now it is not totally on Him? Of course not!(exclamation used for emphasis.... once more we're dealing with unheard possibly imagined tones lol) Christ made the way - this is the key. No one could do what He did and now He is the intercessor. All throughout the Bible we see that choice plays a huge part in God's plan. Many people ask why He put the tree in the garden. Wouldn't it have been more humane to have not 'tempted' man? While we know that God did not tempt the point is still valid and deserves to be answered. I believe that the tree was put there to show that man has free will. Without choices, you never truly know who's child someone is (walk in light - child of God -- walk in darkness - child of the devil). Your take on the scripture also disagrees with that of hebrews 6. Please pay this much head, I think this may be the most important part of the post (just trying to make this stand out so it doesn't get lost in the waves and waves of chatter). No matter how you take hebrews six, whether to those who are presented with the choice and don't accept or those who are saved and make lifestyle choices, the choice phenomenon is still present. Either the individuals that this is referring to have rejected the call (in other words we have the ability to accept or reject) or they have rejected their faith after being saved. No matter what your take is, you still have the same problem, choice. I am as firm believer in non-predestination/non-calvinism's tulip as I am a conditional securitist. I believe that they are both supported by scripture indirectly. Not one place in the Bible does it say that once you receive salvation that you can lose it just as it does not say that you can't lose it. No place in the Bible does it say that we are mindless (by mindless I am referring to the absence of choice) creations set on a fixed track and let lose so that God can watch the final crash just as the Bible does not say that we absolutely have free will. However I do absolutely believe that if the scriptures are taken as a whole we can see that God does give us free will (hebrews six) and that God has put limitations on just how much the Spirit can be grieved if the word is studied by reading in between the lines so to speak.

I definitely think that is enough for now. I'll be checking back periodically for your reply and to make more posts concerning various points so be patient if it has been a while.

God bless you all and thank you for being so tolerant to beliefs that have to irk you. I really enjoy these talks.

[Guest passionforministry]

I know someone who has returned totally to the world out of woundedness - he feels guilt and sorry for what he's done and is doing. David in the Bible, commited adultery yet the Bible says that he was a man after God's own heart. Only God knows the hearts of man. I look at this individual and see sorrow over what he has done yet he is driven by his addictions. On the other hand he loves his Savior and is grateful for his salvation at a level that I have never experienced. This is a difficult issue because it has so many sides to it. So much that only God knows. If you know a person in this type of situation, all I know is that prayer can move mountains. Nagging does no good, but prayer can remove people from their lives, can make things happen that is amazining. Taking things into my own hands doesn't do any good, it only messes things up. A difficult lesson for me to learn. God is waiting for the prodical son/daughter to return and when he does he showers him with everything. Remember the son that remained faithful and served his father was

jealous at how the father reacted to the prodical son. Lets not be jealous. Let us

rejoice when one returns to the fold.

[Guest wilburnh]

I'm now going to answer some of your questions now that I'm feeling refreshed. My last day at work was april fifteenth which was followed up by a week in myrtle beach. I tell you, work has got to be bad for your health lol. Let's start this.

First there are some things that I would like to say to set the mood. First there is the matter of the aortic tense. Now that I am starting a new career, I think I may start studying greek and hebrew so that I can come as more of an authority vs someone who heard someone. Research is research however confidence is something that can not be gotten from someone else's words. Second is the prodigal son. Many times individuals have said that this is proof that we are sons and can never be cut off. However these individuals miss some very important verses and thus some very dramatic conclusions. First the son realized that what he was doing was wrong - can be seen as the wooing of the spirit or chastisement of God when we've gone far enough to have denied him. And second the scripture says that when he was rebelling, he was dead. If his son would never have had the change of heart then he would have died in this dead state and would never have been reconciled. I believe that this is also a good example of how we are drawn to Christ. Christ/Spirit works on our spirit (Behold I stand at the door and knock) but leaves the decision up to us on whether to accept (I'll talk about this later when the number comes up). This is similar to the son in that he was being shown that what he was doing was wrong and then it was his choice whether or not to come back. The main emphasis is that he was dead. This means an absence of any sort of relationship. Ok now let's get to doing this by the numbers:

1) None can come unless the father draw... You can't come to my house until I invite you. Once I do invite you then you have the choice to accept or deny. as for 2 timothy, I'm looking at it now and I'm going to need to do a post devoted just to that. I don't want people to stop reading my post because it's 5 pages.

2) I do believe that a human will decide of his or her own free will only after the Spirit has drawn him or her. Remember the scripture about Jesus standing at the door and knocking. He leaves it to us to open or to reject.

3) I don't know the exact scripture you're using but I think it has to do with accountability. The brethren are supposed to hold one another accountable so that positive peer pressure can be used. I think that this also goes along with James 5:19 & 20. These voice of James five is to believers and the last to verses seems to be of a brother who has made a lifestyle of sin.

4) You're going to have to be a bit more specific if you want more than a generalized response.

5) None of us are free from flesh. Our flesh will always be a slave to sin. What I'm trying to say is that we do not have to live to the flesh but we can live in the spirit. I can not say where anyone else's walk is at with Christ. I can say that there are some people whose 'outward' walk seems bereft of sin but then we can get into their thoughts and I have no way of knowing. A quick side note, I don't believe that when bad thoughts come in our mind that we have sinned. I believe that this is the flesh giving us an opportunity to decide to sin and it becomes a sin once we entertain it. I hope this clears up any confusion on this.

6) There are a couple of issues that I still struggle with. Do I think that I, speaking for myself, will ever be able to live completely in the Spirit apart from the flesh... I don't want to take the ability away from the Spirit... I just don't see it in my immediate future.

7) There's not one scripture that says that Jesus died for all sins that I will ever commit. What it does say, correct me if I'm wrong, is that He died once for all which means that He made the sacrifice once for all people who are to come so that people in the future, us for example, do not need Christ to come back and die again. I also have a question as to what Romans 3:25. I know that I'm not the first person to have read this scripture, so I know that I'm missing something. Why has this been taken to be referring to people before the death of Christ? Remember I'm not giving this in evidence for anything, just since we're on the subject figured I would ask. I may start a new post with this question. I think/hope that it could get in depth.

8) I believe that we are all under the power of the flesh, or at least to a greater degree, when we don't give our lives to God i.e. live in the Spirit. If you'll notice at the end of the passage it shows that we have a deliverance.

9) And here's the passage. You can see here how he was talking about how apart from God we can do no good thing. I ask the question again, did he ever do anything good in the Bible? If he did then this passage does not mean that we can never do any good. We can only ever do good when we let the Spirit have complete control of our lives. When we start taking back control, then once again we start living according the flesh.

10) In the Bible it says that the jews tried to obtain righteousness through works but the Gentiles obtained righteousness through faith by the law of works. I believe that I am righteous. I think this will let you know exactly this may let you know better what I believe so this is important lol. I believe that if an individual gives his/her life completely over to the Spirit then they can live a perfect life from then on. Does this mean that there are now two perfect people to have ever lived? Of course not because this figurative individual has had a sinful life before being saved and still has a sinful nature (I don't know if Christ had a sinful nature or not Don't think that He did). My point is I don't think that living sinless after being saved is the same as living a perfect life. So, someone who has been saved for a split second and then is killed has not lived a perfect live even though they did not sin after coming to know Christ.

11) He still had a sinful nature. If an individual were to completely live to the Spirit he/she would still have a sinful nature. We won't be without a fleshly nature until we are resurrected with out bodies.

12) That with his mind He followed after the spirit - he made the decision to give his life completely to the Spirit but still had the temptation from the flesh. Our flesh can never serve the Spirit because it is what brings the opportunity of sin in our life.

13) According to this line of reasoning, why doesn't God save all of us, or why does He give us the opportunity to sin. He doesn't love us any more once we are His then when we were the devils. It's all about free will, whether or not we choose to worship Him. He wants nothing from us if it is not giving in a willing spirit -- takes tythes for example.

I don't see how your passages mean that when He died He covered future sins. What I mean by this is all sins after we receive Him (specifically someone who is saved and then takes osas to mean he can rape pillage and plunder). All I see these scriptures saying is that we have a sinful nature and will sin so need His mercy to save us.

As for your bold, by the above arguments and certain scriptures/tenses that I believe can not be refuted we must take the scripture to say that it is not what we can do - works that will save us but God calling us. It doesn't say here that we have to accept.

If there is just one scripture that says we have anything to do with accepting Him into our hearts, then the other scriptures which are vague must be taken in context.

Thank you for being patient with my reply.

God bless

[JLW001]

Indeed we must take the whole Bible for our compass, not just one scripture. In John6 and John 10, Jesus reveals that not one of those who were given to Him...by the Father..will be lost. How many ways can those scriptures be interpreted? What did Jesus mean when He said no one could snatch them from His hand? Does no one mean no one? Or does "no one" mean not other people, but the individual can choose to jump out? Or does "no one" mean "no one"?

Who are we humans to say to God that we have our freewill and we have chosen Him, when God knows all, sees all, and does all? It's arrogance. God is not limited by time. If he were then how could He give prophecy? Either He doesn't know and just manipulates people (there goes what we call freewill) so that prophecy is fulfilled or He is outside of time and knows every detail of every single persons life before they are born. That statement reminds me of a scripture in Psalms. As a matter of fact the whole of Psalm 139 is very telling on this subject.

13

Edited April 24, 2005 by JLW001

[Guest wilburnh]

No on can snatch... I think that I've already covered this. Snatch implies forceful removal as a result we can not conclude that this implies to our own choices removing us. We can see in revelations three that the church was going to have their names removed from the book of life because of their actions. The different types of ground shows that someone who is saved and then comes under tribulation because of the word will fall away. This person has not been snatched by anyone but rather they have made decisions that eventually kill their faith.

Who are we but christians getting scripture from the Bible. I believe that it clearly says that we are drawn but the final decision to accept is on us. As for free will, simply because He knows what choices we make does not make free will null and void. I personally believe that God limits what He knows of our actions, however this has no bearing on the concept of free will itself.

fulfillment of his will

We are to live in His will but we do not have to. Many of us do things that are not in His will because we choose not to let the Spirit have control.

As for the passage of scripture something:10-18 goes directly against the scripture, "Behold I stand at the door and knock..." and that it is his will that none should perish but that all should have everlasting life. If this is His will then it is not His will that any should perish so He will not make any to perish. So what does this scripture say since we have an obvious contradiction? The choices that I make can lead me down a path away from God. God perhaps sees that I will never turn so He hardens my heart and makes an example of me. This does not have to, and I believe can not be taken to mean that some are made for damnation and damnation only outside of our choice. By "outside our choice" I mean that we make choices that put us down a path toward hell so He hardens our hearts. I believe that this is the only direction (maybe not exactly correct interpretation) that can be taken considering other scriptures.

The words in Hebrews six mean what they say as well, but there are many a osas who will argue that they pertain only to the hebrews. What hogwash.

This is really important. 1 John 2:1-6 is my assurance that I am saved. I also believe that from this passage we can see cond sec implied. In verse one he says, "My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin." This is very profound here. He writes these things so that we won't sin.... which means we can sin unless we decide (by giving into the Spirit -- I hate writing this over and over but I know if I don't I'll get hammered on it) to heed his words and not sin. "3Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments" This is getting back to hebrews six again. So you're telling me that when this was written it wasn't to mean that "we can know that we know him if we look at our lives and see if we're following his commandments???" Since this is what he means, how are we coming to two complete opposite views? Because you believe that it is referring to any single sin while I believe that it goes along with Hebrews six and others in referring to a lifestyle. If we have no desire to keep His commandments then we know that we do not know Him. Can you see that we don't have to hop from one extreme to the other? If you still disagree with me, then how do you interpret this scripture? Specifically verse three?

I do believe that Christ died for all sins, but I believe that there are some things that are required before our sins are forgiven. For example, someone who has never received Christ, are their sins forgiven? Of course not but Christ did die for these sins. After we are saved we have an advocate with the Father if we do sin. This is only in place as long as we have a relationship with Him. Once we are dead in our faith we are no long covered because we do not have an advocate. Did Christ die for these sins too? Once again of course He did, but we have made ourselves exempt by the choices that we have made. Along the same lines I believe that you are limiting God by saying that since He died for all sins then everyone will be saved. Once again limiting God is not a bad thing if it can be found to be justified by scripture. Jesus limited Himself we He came to earth in human form.

I agree with you that we are in the Spirit... I'm trying to make myself clear here. Hmm ok, have you sinned since receiving Christ. I know you're going to say yes so now let me ask you if you think that it was the will of the Spirit. I again know what you're going to say... no. Where did this sinful nature come from.. the flesh right? Ok, we can see that this passage is saying that while we are in the Spirit we can succumb to the flesh. Verses twelve and thirteen show this

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do

mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

I do not disagree that we go through a change, I disagree that our actions are in the will of the Spirit 100% of the time which is what you are implying. If you are not implying this then we agree.

once again you get into someone who walked according to the spirit and now does not. It was a fad, it wasn't short lived and the didn't drop out at the drop of a hat, but rather turned from their faith. You do not allow this to happen with your beliefs. These scriptures show us that we are His by our fruits, this is what you said. What happens ten years down the road when we no longer have any fruit and this goes on for another ten years. Does this scripture still apply? Can we not now believe that we are not of Him since we do not have the fruit?

As for the prodigal son, does it not say that he was dead? Does this not imply a separation of relationship? Can we not then understand that it was a parable to show us that if we do fall away that He is faithful to be there when we return?

God bless

[JLW001]

Calvin, you said:

I personally believe that God limits what He knows of our actions, however this has no bearing on the concept of free will itself.

Where have you read in the Bible that says that God limits His knowledge of us? In Psalm 139 His Word clearly says that He "wrote" our days within His book before we were born.

What appears as freewilll to us, Calvin, is simply the will of God. When we become born again we are syaing to God that we relinquish our own will for our lives and accept His will.

Its my hope that you will realize the awesomeness of God and the greatness of His will for your life. He has chosen you for His own.

Many of us do things that are not in His will because we choose not to let the Spirit have control.

Yes, we sin. However, it is through all the steps within our life that His perfect will for us is brought to fruition. The trials and tribulations that we go through are simply used by God to mold us into the image of His son. Hebrews 5 clearly says that Jesus, who was without sin, learned obedience through chastizement.

Jesus was not born in the line of Adam and thus His flesh was not "infected" with sin.

We can see in revelations three that the church was going to have their names removed from the book of life because of their actions. The different types of ground shows that someone who is saved and then comes under tribulation because of the word will fall away. This person has not been snatched by anyone but rather they have made decisions that eventually kill their faith.

I'm not certain what verse you mean, but Jesus counsels them to "overcome" and to "buy" from Him gold refined in fire.

To me Revelation 3, when it is speaking of the Sardis church, is showing that there are a few who are truly saved and have not sullied their garments. He exhorts them to perservere and maintain His Word.

and that it is his will that none should perish but that all should have everlasting life

Let's examine scripture to see what this apparent contradiction is truly saying. The one appears to say that it is God's will that everyone on eath should be saved and the other that only those who God has appointed to eternal life will have eternal life.

1 Timothy 1:

16However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. 17Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

NKJV---note the word "are"

John 17: