PRE-TOJT Catching Away

[InSeasonOut]

  The "7 year time period" is NOT called THE TRIBULATION and it is NOT called THE GREAT TRIBULATION anywhere in scripture.
> tribulation is a description - not a title < (Matthew 24 does say "For then shall be great tribulation..."
and "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..." - of those days - "the tribulation" is not the title. Those in it will go thru tribulation.
Christians have tribulation in their lives, - thats not God's wrath. Noah Websters 1828 dictionary defines tribulation as:

TRIBULA'TION, noun [Latin tribulo, to thrash, to beat.] Severe affliction; distresses of life; vexations. In Scripture, it often denotes the troubles and distresses which proceed from persecution.
When tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, he is offended. Matthew 13:21.
In the world ye shall have tribulation John 16:33.
*NOTE: there is not one Christian BEFORE the Cross*

 

  People get confused when others are shown - look here the Bible says we'll have tribulation, that means we will go thru THE tribulation. Nope. Christians will have tribulation in life no doubt... but don't confuse Daniels 70th week as:

 

THE GREAT TRIBULATION!

 

The Bible doesn't say that.....
We might suffer "mans wrath" as there is much evil - but never God's wrath, as we're not appointed to wrath and sealed unto the day of redemption (1Thess 5:9 ; Eph. 1:13-14 ; 4:30 etc.) Christians are chastened of the Lord at times but but God does not pour out his wrath on the Body of Christ. That only happened once - on the Cross. Jesus paid for our sins in full. There is no exception as to why the children of God would go thru His wrath, which is what the 7 year tribulation time period is. The FULL 7 years..

The focus is on the lost sinners in the world, and primarily about Israel and the Jewish people.

 

12 quick reasons for a Pre-Time of Jacobs Trouble (TOJT) Catching Away. (Jeremiah 30:7)

Jacob = Israel. The focus is on the Jews, not the church

 

#1 The Jews require a sign. 1 Cor. 1:22

The nation of Israel began with signs and will end with signs. (Exodus & Revelation)

Rev. ch. 11 - 2 witnesses I believe are Moses & Elijah

#2 The holy place - rebuilt temple ETC

 

Matthew 24:13 - But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Verse 13- As Christians we ARE saved - 14 - THIS GOSPEL of the kingdom, is not the gospel Paul preached which Christians today are saved by. - 15 There is no temple today... the holy place is the body of the believer 1 Cor 6:19-20 - Verse 16- This is specifically written to Jews - Verse 17-19.................... 20 - Are you praying verse 20? The sabbath day is a sign for Israel.

#3 Matthew 24 is doctrinally in the Old Testament. The New Testament did not begin until Jesus died on the cross Hebrews 9

#4 The rapture is a "mystery" 1 Cor 15:51-58.

The post tribulation resurrection was clearly promised to Israel. The Second Coming was not a mystery- revealed in OT

But the mystery of the rapture was not revealed until Paul as with other doctrines for the body of Christ. ....

#5 The resurrection of dead saints is not in Matthew 24
#6 There are blood redeemed Gentiles in heaven before the Antichrist is revealed Revelation 5:9

#7 The Body/Bride of Christ is in heaven before the Second Coming Revelation 19:7-10

#8 God has always removed the righteous before His wrath is poured out. Enoch , Noah , Lot

Man is not appointed to God's wrath 1 Thess 5:9-10

 

#9 There is a distiction between Jews and Gentiles Revelation 7:3-17

There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile now, we are one, in Christ - Galations 3:28

And the Gentiles in Rev 7:14 "....have washed their robes and made them white..... " = Trib saints

But the raptured saints are way back in Rev 1:5 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,"

We don't wash our robes - thats works - We ARE washed, praise God.

#10 After the rapture begins a new dispensation.... Salvation is dispensed thru faith AND works

The born again believer nowadays has the promise of eternal security, but after the rapture - those in Daniels 70th week will need faith and works for personal salvation Matt 24:13  ; Hebrews 6:4-6 ; 10:38-39 ; Rev 13 - 14:9-12

The 69 weeks operated under the Mosaic covenant so must the 70th,

 

**and is amended in the book of Hebrews since its post crucifixion

(written to Hebrews) (James 1:1 clearly states the book is written to the twelve tribes, tho there is much a Christian can take from it)**

 

#11 The trump of God is sounded at the rapture (not trumpet - not the seventh trumpet - it's the "trump")

Rev 4:1-2. Jesus is the door - John 10:1-18

#12 The rapture is a purifying hope 1 John 3:1-3

I believe Jesus can come back at anytime now.... It is awful I'll admit when people set dates for the rapture.. it only plants doubt

when it doesn't happen.... so many false prophets out there that are trying to take your crown from you 2 Timothy 4:8

given to those who love his appearing.... Are you ready for the Lord Jesus Christ to come back?

 

That purifying hope encourages sanctification and getting sin out of my life, and be prepared for the Judgement seat of Christ.

If you belive anything other than ""pre-trib"" then you can wait........ **(how many will be left at the time? Not much of a rapture is it?)**

Where does it say in the Bible to store up food for 7 years ? .. or 3 1/2 years? You can't take the mark, what are you gonna do?

especially in the winter? do you know how to survive? Can you start a fire? Do you know how to purify water? Build a shelter?

What are you doing to prepare for this time>? ME? NOTHING... Because i truly believe im going up...I trust God

Plus if you'll be here for 3-7 years you got plenty of time there to be sanctified,

ya see those beliefs lead to carnality and worldliness....

Are you ready for the Lord Jesus Christ to come back tomorrow? Are you ready for the Judgement seat of Christ?

 

Who are you looking for? The Antichrist? Don't you believe God is faithful? Do you trust Him?

God doesn't provide false hopes. I'm looking for Jesus Christ, He is faithful and if you don't believe the "pre trib rapture"

He is still faithful and you are going up... if you're saved of course.....If any nonbeliever reads this, now is the time to get saved.

If you miss it, study the new dispensation and learn what ya need to do. You'll need to know....

Edited August 1, 2015 by InSeasonOut

[InSeasonOut]

Sorry, I edited some stuff in.... This could be way more detailed, and indeed should be but theres much to cover so i brace myself for impact on the questions.

Oh boy im in trouble now..

[Serving]

Hi InSeasonOut,

 

The wrath is not the same as the tribulation of the saints

 

The wrath is from God & directed at all those who took the mark of the beast & worship his image :

 

Revalation 16:1-2
    And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

 

The tribulation (persecution / killing) of the saints is from Satan through his man the false prophet :

 

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

 

What will you do if you find that no rapture had occurred and were being told to take this mark & worship that image or die?

 

Being a Christian, you would have read to not take that mark even at pain of death .. you would know this because you would have read it in the bible, you would have read it in the bible because you were likely a Christian & Christians read the bible .. so the message was directed at Christians, and the message was do not take it even though they will kill you for it ..

 

So how exactly do the last day saints in your reckoning escape tribulation when we are told to expect tribulation unto death even?

 

So the real problem is this .. most have not been able to discern between the wrath of God towards the marked & unbelieving world .. (whose wrath / vengeance is expressly for His murdered saints sakes, which vengeance / wrath contains the smoke of the prayers of said murdered saints .. can't revenge those who are whisked away now can we)

 

.. and ..

 

Those who have not yet discerned the wrath opposed to the tribulation of the saints,  which tribulation event is from Satan of whose true purpose is to sift / single out God's people who Satan knows are the one & ONLY group on earth who are commanded not to take that mark.

 

 

So, Tribulation / murder of the saints is from Satan towards Christians who refuse to yield .. which leads to :

 

The resulting vengeance (on behalf of said murdered saints) / wrath of God against the marked world from God Himself

 

Two distinct cause / effects taking place here.

 

There is no confusion within this understanding nor contradiction with any other scripture whatsoever .. the misunderstanding is only in the beholder, not the scriptures.

 

Regards.

[Sister]

In SeasonOut

 

The "7 year time period" is NOT called THE TRIBULATION and it is NOT called THE GREAT TRIBULATION anywhere in scripture.

 

The Great tribulation as has never happened before will be only for 3 1/2 years, then Jesus shall come.

The Great tribulation means it has never happened before on such a world wide scale.

The Great tribulation comes and is a time of testing.

 

Matthew 24:21   For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

The great tribulation starts with the saints being persecuted for refusing the Mark of the Beast.

 

Revelation 7:14   And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

To refuse the Mark of the beast is to not accept his new system.  To refuse this new system one cannot buy nor sell.  If one cannot buy nor sell he will go hungry, be homeless, and become hated by the world.  He will be seen as a trouble-maker, making the streets look bad, when all he has to do is accept the Mark of the beast (the microchip) and he will have instant credit and can live and blend in society like everyone else.

 

What are you going to do?  Are you saying that Christians will not have to make this choice?

That they are exempt?

Will they not stand out, and be counted as the sheep for the slaughter?

 

God has used this false prophet for his own purpose.  He is using him to test the Christians, and forcing them to make a choice.

Now it's time to walk the talk.

 

What if we were not prepared for what is coming?,

then Christ has not shown us everything because we did not seek his word, but trusted in men to teach us instead and put us at ease with no thought for tomorrow. 

 

No body living escapes this test coming.  Not one single person.

 

Matthew 16:25   For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

 

 

Why are most christians afraid to take this test?

Because in their hearts they are not prepared to make this sacrifice.

Therefore;

 

Matthew 7:14   Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

 

This is Christ speaking to the Christians;

Revelation 2:22   Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Revelation 2:23   And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

 

There are obviously many Christians who's works have not been perfect according to Christ.

If the saints make the right decision to refuse the mark of the beast and chose to suffer persecution for his name sake,  then they will not share in the plagues that come shortly after on the world, because they will not be here.  They will be purified with fire.  Made white through that one last important test.

 

There will be only a very small minority that will not suffer death, nor persecution.

These are the sealed 144,000, Not Jews but those who followed the Lamb.  They are numbered out of the 12 tribes of Israel only because they have received their inheritance first.

Not everybody can be included in this number, and if we claim the highest seat in the house, and Christ finds spots on our robes, then we will be brought low.

 

There will be a cut off time.  This time no man knows, but I know it's just before the great final tribulation.

When Christ closes the door of the ark, no man can get on board, but them that are chosen will be inside.  They are not going up anywhere, but they will not be harmed.

 

Matthew 22:14   For many are called, but few are chosen.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bible2]

InSeasonOut said in post 1:

 

12 quick reasons for a Pre-Time of Jacobs Trouble (TOJT) Catching Away. (Jeremiah 30:7)

 

Note that the time of Jacob's trouble which he will be saved out of (Jeremiah 30:7) won't be the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, but only the final pillaging of the Jews in Jerusalem at the very end of the tribulation, right before Jesus returns and saves them (Zechariah 14:2-5). The church, including both Jewish and Gentile believers (Revelation 7:9,14), will be in the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6).

 

InSeasonOut said in post 1:

 

Jacob = Israel. The focus is on the Jews, not the church

 

Note that just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

 

That is, all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

 

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they are genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews, if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

 

Also, note that the book of James is addressing "the twelve tribes" (James 1:1), which is the same as addressing people in the church (James 5:14), people with faith in Christ (James 2:1, James 1:3) (i.e. Christians), people who have been born again (James 1:18, cf. 1 Peter 1:23), who are waiting for Christ to return (James 5:7).

 

Also, the book of Hebrews is about the church (Hebrews 2:12, Hebrews 12:23), the body of Christ (Hebrews 13:3, cf. 1 Corinthians 12:25-27).

 

InSeasonOut said in post 1:

 

The Jews require a sign. 1 Cor. 1:22

 

It is possible for Jews to both require and seek miraculous signs, just as they did in the 1st century AD (John 2:18, Mark 8:11). But not all Jews of all times have to. There are a lot of Jews who have become saved in modern times (e.g. "Jews for Jesus") without them having to see miraculous signs performed. 1 Corinthians 1:22 was simply referring to the general tendencies of Jewish and Gentile unbelievers in the time of the apostle Paul in the 1st century AD. Also, 1 Corinthians 1:22 doesn't mean signs can't be given to Gentiles. For when Paul preached to the Corinthians, who were Gentiles (1 Corinthians 12:2), he gave them signs (2 Corinthians 12:12). Also, the Corinthians themselves, after they got saved, operated in the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 14:26-32; 1 Corinthians 12:8-10). Similarly, 1 Corinthians 1:22 doesn't mean wisdom can't be given to Jewish believers, for both Jewish and Gentile believers can receive wisdom (1 Corinthians 1:23,24,30, James 1:5).

 

InSeasonOut said in post 1:

 

The sabbath day is a sign for Israel.

 

Note that Matthew 24:20 doesn't require that the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath will be in effect (as far as God is concerned) at the future time Matthew 24:20 is fulfilled. And the parallel verse in Mark 13:18 doesn't mention the sabbath. For some Christians choose to keep the sabbath, while others choose not to keep it (Romans 14:5). The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath hasn't been in effect since Jesus' crucifixion, when, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

 

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

 

-

 

Also, Matthew 24:19-20 means it will be more difficult for pregnant women and women carrying infants to flee (Matthew 24:16), just as will be more difficult to flee in the winter or on a sabbath. This would apply in cases where those fleeing don't have cars (or gasoline), and so will have to walk a long way to their place of refuge. For walking a long way will be more difficult for pregnant women and women carrying infants, and for anyone at a time of wintry cold and wind, rain, or snow, and for any Christian on the sabbath who believes that to walk a long way on the sabbath is a sin. Also, by the time Matthew 24:15-20 is fulfilled in our future, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Judaea (southern Israel) could have reestablished sabbath police there, who could attack with sticks anyone trying to walk a long way on the sabbath.

 

Also, the ultra-Orthodox Jews believe it is a sin to even turn on a light switch on the sabbath, as they see this as breaking the commandment not to kindle a fire on the sabbath (Exodus 35:3). So they could similarly forbid people to start a car on the sabbath, as this would be kindling a fire within its combustion engine. Also, the ultra-Orthodox Jews could set up roadblocks to prevent anyone from driving a car anywhere on the sabbath.

 

InSeasonOut said in post 1:

 

Matthew 24 is doctrinally in the Old Testament.

 

Actually, Matthew 24 is doctrinally in the New Testament. For note that Jesus spoke specifically of his "church" (Matthew 16:18, Matthew 18:17) before he spoke Matthew 24. And Matthew 24 refers to the future tribulation, by which time the church will have existed for some 2,000 years. The saints who will be in the tribulation will be the church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the church who will be in the tribulation could include most of the believers alive today (whether Jewish or Gentile), for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

 

Also, Matthew 24 was addressed privately only to believers (Matthew 24:3,4,9), and in Jesus' mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed only to believers (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the (mistaken) pre-tribulation rapture view admits that, for example, John 14, Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21, and Matthew 28 can apply to those in the church today (e.g. Luke 21:36, John 14:3, Matthew 28:18-19), so the pre-tribulation rapture view should be able to admit that Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to those in the church today.

 

Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Christians, whether genetic Jews or Gentiles, those who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), and/or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that he is letting them and their little ones suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13, Matthew 10:37-39).

 

--

 

The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous, because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them, and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

 

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking the rapture was supposed to be pre-tribulation. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers completely unprepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

 

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything they are going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

 

InSeasonOut said in post 1:

 

The rapture is a "mystery" 1 Cor 15:51-58.

 

Note that Paul didn't call the rapture itself a mystery in 1 Corinthians 15:51, for Jesus had already taught the rapture in the Gospels (John 14:3b, Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1). Instead, the mystery shown in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (cf. John 11:26) was the instantaneous changing of living believers into immortal physical bodies at the time dead believers will be resurrected into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-54). It is only after this that the rapture (the catching up together/gathering together) of all believers will occur (1 Thessalonians 4:16b-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3b).

 

InSeasonOut said in post 1:

 

The resurrection of dead saints is not in Matthew 24

 

Note that Matthew 24:29-31 refers to the same, 2nd coming of Jesus as Revelation 19:7 to 20:6. And the 2nd-coming resurrected church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16) is mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6, just as the 2nd-coming married church is mentioned in Revelation 19:7.

 

InSeasonOut said in post 1:

 

There are blood redeemed Gentiles in heaven before the Antichrist is revealed Revelation 5:9

 

Regarding Revelation 5:9, the 24 elders (Revelation 4:4) could be 24 chief angels who, along with the 4 beasts/seraphims, have been worshipping God continually (as in 24 hours a day) for untold ages (Revelation 4:8-11, Isaiah 6:2-3). Just as the ancient Jewish temple on earth was modeled after the temple in heaven (Hebrews 9:23-24, Hebrews 8:5), so the 24 courses of the ancient Jewish chief priests on earth (1 Chronicles 24:7-18) could have been modeled after the 24 elders in heaven. God could have also patterned the 24 hours of the day on earth after the 24 elders in heaven. And he could have also patterned the church's 12 tribes of Israel and its 12 apostles (Revelation 21:9,12,14), together forming the number 24, after the 24 elders in heaven.

 

At the time of Revelation 5:8-9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims could be singing before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 5:8c), just as subsequently we see an angel offering up before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 8:4). So in Revelation 5:9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims can be singing words which don't apply to themselves, just as humans on earth can sing words which don't apply to themselves (e.g. James Taylor singing the words of the song "Millworker", which is the lament of a female millworker in the 19th century).

 

The 24 elders wearing crowns (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels. For if even the weird locust-like beings and the devil can wear crowns (Revelation 9:7, Revelation 12:3,9), then some angels can wear crowns.

 

Also, the 24 elders wearing white clothing (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, for angels can wear white clothing (Revelation 15:6, John 20:12).

 

InSeasonOut said in post 1:

 

The Body/Bride of Christ is in heaven before the Second Coming Revelation 19:7-10

 

In Revelation 19:7, the church is in the 1st heaven, the sky, for the wedding, and it got there at the post-tribulation rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31).

 

For the 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

 

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated by Jesus' at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

 

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

 

InSeasonOut said in post 1:

 

God has always removed the righteous before His wrath is poured out. Enoch , Noah , Lot

 

Note that Enoch wasn't translated into the 3rd heaven so that he wouldn't have to go through the Flood (along with righteous Noah and his family in the ark: 2 Peter 2:5; 1 Peter 3:20). For Enoch (Noah's great grandfather) was translated 669 years before the Flood. The way that we can know this is first by knowing when Noah's flood happened:

 

Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. This is based on verses in the Bible which make it possible to work back from the year BC that Solomon's temple began to be built.

 

Historians say that it began to be built about 966 BC. And the scriptures show that it began to be built 480 years after Israel's Exodus from Egypt (1 Kings 6:1). And Israel had spent 430 years in Egypt before the Exodus (Exodus 12:40-41). And Israel entered Egypt when Jacob was 130 (Genesis 47:9). And Jacob was born when his father Isaac was 60 (Genesis 25:26). And Isaac was born when his father Abraham was 100 (Genesis 21:5). And Abraham was born when his father Terah was about 70 (Genesis 11:26). And Terah was born when his father Nahor was 29 (Genesis 11:24). And Nahor was born when his father Serug was 30 (Genesis 11:22). And Serug was born when his father Reu was 32 (Genesis 11:20). And Reu was born when his father Peleg was 30 (Genesis 11:18). And Peleg was born when his father Eber was 34 (Genesis 11:16). And Eber was born when his father Salah was 30 (Genesis 11:14). And Salah was born when his father Arphaxad was 35 (Genesis 11:12). And Arphaxad was born 2 years after the Flood (Genesis 11:10).

 

So all we have to do is add up the numbers of years above to see that Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. Then, to determine when Enoch was translated, we need to work farther back: If Arphaxad was born 2 years after the Flood, then Arphaxad was born about 2456 BC. And Arphaxad was born when his father Shem was 100 (Genesis 11:10). And Shem was born when his father Noah was 502 (Genesis 11:10, Genesis 7:6). And Noah was born when his father Lamech was 182 (Genesis 5:28-29). And Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). And Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21).

 

Adding up the numbers of years above, we see that Enoch was born about 3492 BC. He was translated when he was 365 (Genesis 5:23-24), so he was translated about 3127 BC, which was 669 years before the Flood. Adding these 669 years to Enoch's age of 365, we find that Enoch was 1,034 years old at the time of the Flood. This means that had he stayed on the earth, he would have almost certainly died from old age before the Flood came (cf. Isaiah 57:1). For Methuselah (Noah's grandfather) was the longest-living person who stayed on the earth, and he died at the age of 969 (Genesis 5:27), the same year as the Flood. For Enoch was born about 3492 BC, and Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21). So Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and he died 969 years later, which was about 2458 BC, the same year as the Flood.

 

Methuselah could have died of old age right before the Flood started. God could have waited to bring the Flood until after Methuselah died of old age and was buried. Lamech (Noah's father) had already died some 5 years before the Flood. For Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). So Lamech was born about 3240 BC, and he died 777 years later (Genesis 5:31), which was about 2463 BC, 5 years before the Flood.

 

InSeasonOut said in post 1:

 

Man is not appointed to God's wrath 1 Thess 5:9-10

 

Note that you said "Man". Do you mean no man will go through the tribulation? If you instead meant no one in the church: 1 Thessalonians 5:9 refers only to that wrath which is opposed to salvation, which is indeed God's wrath (John 3:36). But even obedient saved people can suffer the wrath of Satan, which doesn't affect their salvation (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 2:10). For even if they are killed by Satan, this is no loss for them, but gain, for it brings their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). Also, 1 Thessalonians 5:9a applies to anyone who obtains salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9b), and no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10).

 

Also, note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be only Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

 

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing of the seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

 

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before. The day of the Lord itself won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

 

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

 

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of strange locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

 

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

 

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

 

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and to give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

 

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

 

Jesus will return right after the 7th-and-last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

[Bible2]

InSeasonOut said in post 1:

 

There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile now, we are one, in Christ - Galations 3:28

 

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28).

 

Note that in Galatians 3:28, Paul can't possibly mean there are no believers who are Jews or Gentiles in any sense, because elsewhere he shows, for example, that believers remain either genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b). Similarly, Galatians 3:28 doesn't mean there are no believers who are males or females, for clearly we are still males or females with regard to our genitals, and with regard to other matters (1 Timothy 2:11-12; 1 Corinthians 14:34-37; 1 Corinthians 11:4-16; 1 Peter 3:7a).

 

So Galatians 3:28 can only mean there is no distinction between believing Jews and Gentiles, or between believing males and females, with regard to them being "one in Christ" (Galatians 3:28b), in the sense of them being one body in Christ (Ephesians 4:4-6), without distinction with regard to their salvation (Romans 10:12; 1 Corinthians 12:13; 1 Peter 3:7b).

 

InSeasonOut said in post 1:

 

The born again believer nowadays has the promise of eternal security . . .

 

Note that the Bible doesn't teach once-saved-always-saved, but shows that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 3:12, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

 

Also, even if they do continue in the faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue to the end in obedience and good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

 

Also, even if they do continue in faith and good works of faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to the end to repent from every sin they commit (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to commit unrepentant sin, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Luke 12:45-46; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

 

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus' death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that (cf. Acts 22:16a).

 

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they partake of the divine flesh and blood of communion (John 6:53, Matthew 26:26-28; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:27-30). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that (cf. John 6:60,66).

 

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they forgive everyone for every wrong (Matthew 6:14-15). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that (Matthew 18:21-35).

 

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do all they can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom they have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26, cf. Acts 24:16). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that.

 

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that (3 John 1:10b).

 

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they provide for their families (1 Timothy 5:8). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that.

 

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying that an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit (e.g. Matthew 12:28) was performed by Satan (Mark 3:22-30). There is no assurance initially saved people will never choose to say that (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:39b; 1 Thessalonians 5:19).

 

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't remove words from the book of Revelation and then publish the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Revelation 22:19). There is no assurance they will never choose to do that (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:2).

 

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't worship the future Antichrist and his image, and willingly receive his mark on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 14:9-12, Revelation 13:16-18). There is no assurance they won't choose to do that (1 Timothy 4:1).

 

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:20-22). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46).

 

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8).

 

All this is said not to engender any unhealthy fear in believers, but the healthy fear which all believers are supposed to have (e.g. Romans 11:20-22).

 

And all this is said not to engender any despair in believers, but the healthy, close-clinging to the person of Jesus himself, which all believers must continue in (John 15:4-6). For while God makes it possible for initially saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13) toward their ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b, Matthew 7:21), this is possible only so long as they continue to abide in Jesus. For on their own, apart from Jesus, they can't do anything good (John 15:4-5).

 

Also, Jesus isn't a hard taskmaster. He will never give believers more work to do for him than they can easily bear (Matthew 11:28-30). So if believers ever get stressed out that Jesus is asking them to do too much, it is not Jesus asking them to do whatever is stressing them out (Luke 10:40-42). They need to take a step back and ask Jesus what particular spiritual work he is actually asking them as individuals to do (Mark 13:34, Romans 12:6-8).

 

InSeasonOut said in post 1:

 

The born again believer nowadays has the promise of eternal security, but after the rapture - those in Daniels 70th week will need faith and works for personal salvation Matt 24:13  ; Hebrews 6:4-6 ; 10:38-39 ; Rev 13 - 14:9-12

 

Regarding Hebrews 6, note that verses 4-8 show that even saved people today, who have repented and become partakers of the Holy Spirit, can ultimately lose their salvation because of subsequently wrongly employing their free will to "fall away", to commit apostasy, to stop believing (like in Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3), just as other scriptures show the same thing (John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

 

One way a saved person today could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he begins to listen to the lies of demons and latch onto them, to the point where he departs from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1). In a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, saved people can reach the point where they become no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and they instead seek out and latch onto other teachings which will help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

 

Another way a saved person today could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he has a terror of being tortured and killed during a persecution against Christians, so that during such a persecution he completely renounces his faith in Jesus Christ and the gospel in order to avoid being tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12). Some Christians will fall away in this sense during the future tribulation (2 Thessalonians 2:3, Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), when the Antichrist will take power over the earth, make war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding), and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

 

There will be no way to repent from committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8) and worshipping the Antichrist and his image and willingly receiving his mark on the forehead or right hand, even if this is done just to keep from getting killed (Revelation 13:15-18). Whoever does these things, even if they had become initially saved before, will end up suffering punishment in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-12). So Christians must be willing to be killed, even by getting beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6), before they would ever do these things (Revelation 14:12-13).

 

This ties in with the fact that a saved person can in the end have his name blotted out of the book of life if he doesn't overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). An example of saved people ultimately "overcoming" (Greek: nikao, G3528) or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2) is found later in the book of Revelation, in Revelation 15:2, which refers to those saved people who will be willing to be killed by the Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their mortal lives during the coming worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). Christians will be able to spiritually "overcome" the Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Revelation 12:11).

 

InSeasonOut said in post 1:

 

The 69 weeks operated under the Mosaic covenant so must the 70th . . .

 

Note that no scripture says or requires that the 70 weeks (Daniel 9:24) are for the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18).

 

InSeasonOut said in post 1:

 

The trump of God is sounded at the rapture (not trumpet - not the seventh trumpet - it's the "trump")

 

Rev 4:1-2 . . .

 

Note that Revelation 4:1 refers only to John the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the first century AD, just as 2 Corinthians 12:2 refers only to Paul the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the first century AD. Neither verse refers to the future rapture of the church only as high as the clouds of the sky (the first heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

Also, no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3, but not mentioned again until Revelation 22, just as no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Romans 16, but not mentioned in Romans chapters 1 to 15. The reason the word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3 is because those chapters refer to 7 literal, first century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11).

 

The church in the general sense will definitely be in the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For believers will definitely be in it (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Also, just as the mistaken, pre-tribulation rapture view admits that Revelation chapters 19 to 22 include references to the church without using the specific word "church", so it should be able to admit that Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can include references to the church without using the specific word "church".

 

InSeasonOut said in post 1:

 

Are you ready for the Lord Jesus Christ to come back?

 

Do you mean there will be only a partial rapture of the church, sometime before the 2nd coming, of only those in the church who are ready for the rapture by simply believing it is pre-tribulation, and/or by living holy lives? If so, note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture, that the entire church won't be raptured (gathered together) at the time of Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which is the time of Jesus' 2nd coming, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). For the need for believers to be ready for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:44, Matthew 25:10) doesn't have to do with whether or not they will be raptured at that time, but with whether or not they will lose their salvation at that time (e.g. Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

 

For some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

 

InSeasonOut said in post 1:

 

That purifying hope encourages sanctification and getting sin out of my life, and be prepared for the Judgement seat of Christ.

 

If you belive anything other than ""pre-trib"" then you can wait........

 

Note that in Matthew 24:48-51, the evil servant became evil and was surprised by the Lord's return, because when the Lord didn't return sometime before or during the tribulation, the evil servant thought the Lord was indefinitely "delaying" his return (Matthew 24:48). But in fact, the Lord's return won't be delayed at all, but will occur "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31). Also, even when believers know this truth, they still need to live each day knowing that any of them could die at any time (Luke 12:20, James 4:14).

 

InSeasonOut said in post 1:

 

Who are you looking for? The Antichrist? Don't you believe God is faithful? Do you trust Him?

 

God doesn't provide false hopes.

 

Amen.

 

And note that the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) is the hope of eternal life: "In hope of eternal life" (Titus 1:2), "that blessed hope" (Titus 2:13), "the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:7), by which is meant the hope of obtaining an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Also, Jesus himself is the hope of believers (1 Timothy 1:1b), for he himself is eternal life (John 14:6), and only by believing in him can people have eternal life (John 3:36).

 

No Christians are hoping for the tribulation instead of Jesus' 2nd coming, even though those Christians who (rightly) hold to the post-tribulation rapture view know the tribulation must come first (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13). For a Christian (whether male or female) who holds to the post-tribulation rapture view is like a pregnant woman nearing the end of her term. She isn't hoping for birthing pains instead of the birth of her child, but she knows birthing pains must come first (John 16:21-22, Isaiah 26:17-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23).

 

For note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That is why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

 

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

 

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

 

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

[Bible2]

Sister said in post 4:

 

There will be only a very small minority that will not suffer death, nor persecution.

 

These are the sealed 144,000, Not Jews but those who followed the Lamb.

 

The 144,000 will indeed all be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so they will all be part of the church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could all already be part of the church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8, during the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will have entered the tribulation along with the rest of the church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

Also, note that the 144,000, who are of the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:4-8), can include both Jews and Gentiles in the church. For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

 

The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19) because the Israel they are from isn't genetic Israel with its 12 genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

 

Sister said in post 4:

 

There will be only a very small minority that will not suffer death, nor persecution.

 

These are the sealed 144,000, Not Jews but those who followed the Lamb.

 

Note that while at the future point in time of Revelation 7:2-4, only the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:1,4) will be sealed for physical protection, all obedient people in the church will still be spiritually protected during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, no matter what happens to them physically (Romans 8:35-37). Also, before Revelation 7:2-4 happens, the 144,000, along with some others, will be physically protected so that they will survive the tribulation's first stage (in Revelation 6), while others will die and their souls will enter heaven (Revelation 7:9,14). It is near the end of this first stage that the 144,000 will be sealed (Revelation 7:3-4) for physical protection before the unsealing of the 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). The first 6 trumpets' events, up to Revelation 9:19, will be the tribulation's 2nd stage. The seal which the 144,000 will receive (which will be different from and in addition to the seal of the Holy Spirit himself which they and all others in the church receive: Ephesians 1:13) will physically protect them during this 2nd stage (Revelation 9:4).

 

After the 2nd stage, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up in their mortal bodies as the "man child" to God's throne in heaven (Revelation 12:5, Revelation 14:4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:1). Right after the 144,000 are caught up, the tribulation's 3rd stage, the literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will begin (Revelation 12:5-6). This time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 14:9-13).

 

The 144,000 will remain in heaven before God's throne (Revelation 14:5, Textus Receptus) during the time of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 14:9-13, Revelation 13:5-18), while 2 other parts of the church will still be on the earth: the figurative "woman" who represents those in the church who will flee into prepared wilderness places and be physically protected (Revelation 12:6,14); and the remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17), those in the church who will remain in the cities and not be physically protected, but will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

 

After the Antichrist's reign is declared legally over at the sounding of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). These vials (Revelation 16) will be the tribulation's 4th and final stage. Because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of these vials will be directed at those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). So some in the church will survive the entire future tribulation on the earth. They are those who will still be "alive and remain" at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). These survivors will have experienced God's miraculous physical protection (Psalms 91) without having to have been part of the 144,000.

[InSeasonOut]

The 1st thing I would like for all to answer (if you disagree with pre-tojt) is what are you doing to prepare for "the tribulation" as you call it?

What about winter? can you start a fire? build a shelter? purify water? are you storing up food?

If not, why are you wasting your time answering me, you got alot of work to do...

Please answer that first ^

 

In response to " Serving" , I think you were still confused about tribulation and wrath

 

When God opens the first seal, unleashing the Antichrist, bringing war and famine, - thats the wrath of God,

There will be many people that believe, and become "trib saints" but they have to do something (resist the mark) to be saved. Rev 14:9-12

They are washing their robes Rev 7:14 (they themselves are not washed)
 

Not all the Bible is " for you " ... the OT is written for our learning.. its not for us... There is a lot of instruction in righteousness in the OT for Christians

but be careful getting doctrine out of it. Theres still pleanty that crosses dispensatonal lines tho....

The book of Hebrews is written to HEBREWS - God inspired and preserved it, thats why its in the Bible

and God preserved the Bible and now there is millions of perfect copies that will be preserved in the Bible that will be in 70th week.

Its just logical... All the inspired books are together in 66 books, but not everything is personally for you, sorry

 

Again we can get things out of Hebrews and James but the book as a whole is NOT written to Christians in this time period

of what is commonly called the church age = the Cross to the Rapture, is how i define it.

I'm not a hyperdispensationalist but Paul mainly has all the doctrines for Christians in the "church age"

There's a difference between the spirit of antichrist and the final literal antichrist.

When God allows the final literal antichrist to come forth that IS God's wrath upon all who rejected Jesus Christ,

some people become believers and thus "trib saints" and must endure to the end to be saved.

And when the mark to buy or sell is there, avoiding it is works salvation, you have to avoid it to be saved, thats breaking eternal security.

Obviously a different dispensation that this church age won't be in, the first 31/2 years is no cake walk

I hope I explained that well enough...

[InSeasonOut]

Matthew 24:21   For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

NOTE* - The word " THE " is nowhere in that verse... so what you meant to say is:

 

 

 Great tribulation has never happened before and will be 7 years, then the Second Coming occurs

Great tribulation means it has never happened before on such a world wide scale.

Great tribulation comes and is a time of testing.

 

There

 

Revelation 7:14   And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

Again the word  "THE" is not before " great tribulation" > its a description, not a title....

and THEY themselves wash their robes and THEY made them white in the blood of the Lamb = that is works , and they themselves are not washed (See Rev 1:5)

 

 

Sorry i forget how to do the little quote boxes... lol trying to conserve space...  " Sister " quotes in green

 

What are you going to do?  Are you saying that Christians will not have to make this choice?

That they are exempt?

Will they not stand out, and be counted as the sheep for the slaughter?

 

Christians in that time period will make a choice. Just not "church age" Christians as we've gone up already...

 

God has used this false prophet for his own purpose.  He is using him to test the Christians, and forcing them to make a choice.

Now it's time to walk the talk.

 

Thats works salvation. I've already made a choice that day i got saved and sealed.

 

What if we were not prepared for what is coming?,

then Christ has not shown us everything because we did not seek his word, but trusted in men to teach us instead and put us at ease with no thought for tomorrow. 

 

Be prepared for the Judgment seat of Christ... Not "the tribulation"

[InSeasonOut]

Response to  " Bible2 "

 

I will need a lot of little quote boxes to respond... but what would you like a reply to first?

Obviously i don't have much time to respond to everything, unless its one or two at a time.

But then you would try to refute my response and it goes nowhere..........

So what are you doing to prepare for this time? What about Winter?

do you know how to survive? Can you start a fire? Do you know how to purify water? Build a shelter? What are you doing to prepare for this time>?

If nothing or little, then why waste time trying to refute anyone who believes a "pre-trib" rapture?

I'd like a chapter and verse for that one too. Got one?

Edited August 2, 2015 by InSeasonOut