PRE-TOJT Catching Away

[InSeasonOut]

 

I agree... After i walked away, i realized that was a fleshy response. As you can tell i was very frustrated. I shouldn't have let that get under my skin.

Sorry Sister.

 

InseasonOut

 

Thank you for the apology and I forgive you.

If we are going to come on here and have dialogue with one an other we have to be pretty thick skinned!

 

We should not take anything personal for we are only discussing doctrines.

I only speak about things I am confident about and can always back up what I say.

Now this is not a personal attack on you or anyone, because I love everyone here,

But we should always defend with scriptures and with reasoning.

 

but I do testify that the 70th week doctrine, and it is a NEW DOCTRINE, that placing it in the end times, holds no water.

I see everybody speaking about it and I always shake my head. 

There is a "falling away" happening right now, and the truth is being distorted.  Everyone is going along with this doctrine not even studying carefully what Daniel is speaking about.

 

That prophecy in Daniel was concerning the building of the second temple to it's destruction (70AD) - That's it.  The 70 weeks is over.  The prophecy was for that period of 490 yrs or so.

The missing week is from when the angel gave the commandment to rebuild the temple, to the actual starting date of rebuilding.  One week passed here, and it's not pointed out plainly but we can work it out, that this is that missing week. 

 

Since the destruction of the temple, desolations are determined until the consummation (the coming).

70AD was the cut off point for Israel.  If they were not going to believe all the witness accounts of Christ by then, when it was still fresh, which they did not as a nation, then they will be included in the curse.  This curse is a spiritual desolation, being blinded until Christ returns, then he will open their eyes.

Not only will Israel be desolate, but the whole world, including the christian world where the falling away takes place.

 

 

okay, i read your response....... well thanks for explaining your reasoning with scripture, if thats your doctrinal conviction, ..great.

I'm not gonna respond to "debunk" that idea.. ill let this one go.

I hope it's helping to bear fruit in your life in some way....

[Sister]

How long have you been studying the Bible? Do you study? or parrot what you've been told?

 

InSeasonOut

 

I just want to add, ...I believe Christ when he said he could teach us directly by going through his Word.  Us, and his Word only. If he finds us sincere he will give the holy spirit (spirit of truth) not in full at first, but in small doses, measure by measure, bit by bit.  The more hungry we are, the more we search, the more we find, we understand.  This is how the spirit teaches, until our measure is nearly full after much seeking on our own.

I am not church taught so not used to all your terms and interpretations.  I find many of them strange.  Maybe I am "strange"  I'll accept that.

 

One could study the bible for a lifetime but if on the wrong foundation, would only be filled with errors.  Somewhere we are going to get caught, and the Word is that stumbling block, put there for a reason.

 

Christ said to eat on his flesh only, and he promised that those who do, he would feed.  Many don't understand what this means?

It mean's ...learn the truth from the scriptures directly.  Read for ourselves, think for ourselves, compare scripture with scripture, study with a pure hunger for truth and Christ will feed us.  This is the right foundation.

In turn it mean's do not look to man to give us the answers.  Don't let someone fill you with their doctrine when you are starting out, because this would be considered eating strange flesh (building on someone else's foundation), relying on man, even though man's intentions are good, but he might have some mistakes in there. So labour for ourselves, let us do the hard work first,....read at every chance we get, then compare doctrines if we are in a church, and test everything. It's our soul that is at stake here.  We are representatives of Christ to the world.  Christ does not want his representatives preaching error in doctrine, because we stand for "the truth".  We are all about "truth" down to the last fine detail.

 

 

Christ did warn that wolves would come in (to the churches) so for us to be aware. They have mingled themselves in there.  This is where the false prophets are, the ones bringing in new teachings, and there are many (40,000 or so christian doctrines) .  So don't be afraid if one little man flying solo is testifying of scripture,...he will not influence "the massess", he is not the wolf,...because the wolf goes for the many sheep, the whole flock, and the flock ask no questions? 

 

So go directly to the bible for the true doctrine and Christ will give it....because of those wolves about, beware.  They are the ones causing the "falling away" amongst the churches.

 

If you are saying you're amillenial then that is the most shameful belief any professing Christian can make.

Don't bother responding, im not gonna read it. Get the basics of eschatology straightened out.

 

 

 

I had to look this word up again.  You see, I don't follow the world's lingo.  The world is always catagorising christian beliefs, sectioning off people and causing division.  I say something is the truth or it isn't, I don't put people into a box.

 

Amillennialism (Greek: a- "no" + millennialism), in Christian eschatology, involves the rejection of the belief that Jesus will have a literal, thousand-year-long, physical reign on the earth.

 

I guess I am not this.  You most certaintly have not read my posts regarding the thousand years coming?  I think I speak about it more than anyone here.  In fact I was speaking about it 10 years ago and accused of all such things and catagorised into not just one box but a few, and they did it with such hate.

This belief was not popular amongst many christians because they never heard of it then, but now can see, but not so clearly with all the fine details.

 

So to get the basics of "end time prophecy events" (which is a better word in my opinion, as the "eschatology" word is only for the "learned" and not a word the "simple" understand), we have to separate fact from fiction, and I declare whether anyone agrees or not that the 70th week in Daniel was completed at the destruction of the temple in 70ad. 

 

I am up for this challenge, so if you want to challenge me, lets bring out our swords!....and do it the proper way using scripture and studying what it actually says. 

 

So let's go back to the drawing board if you are up to it, and I'll prove it to you.

[Serving]

 

How long have you been studying the Bible? Do you study? or parrot what you've been told?

 

InSeasonOut

 

I just want to add, ...I believe Christ when he said he could teach us directly by going through his Word.  Us, and his Word only. If he finds us sincere he will give the holy spirit (spirit of truth) not in full at first, but in small doses, measure by measure, bit by bit.  The more hungry we are, the more we search, the more we find, we understand.  This is how the spirit teaches, until our measure is nearly full after much seeking on our own.

I am not church taught so not used to all your terms and interpretations.  I find many of them strange.  Maybe I am "strange"  I'll accept that.

 

One could study the bible for a lifetime but if on the wrong foundation, would only be filled with errors.  Somewhere we are going to get caught, and the Word is that stumbling block, put there for a reason.

 

Christ said to eat on his flesh only, and he promised that those who do, he would feed.  Many don't understand what this means?

It mean's ...learn the truth from the scriptures directly.  Read for ourselves, think for ourselves, compare scripture with scripture, study with a pure hunger for truth and Christ will feed us.  This is the right foundation.

In turn it mean's do not look to man to give us the answers.  Don't let someone fill you with their doctrine when you are starting out, because this would be considered eating strange flesh (building on someone else's foundation), relying on man, even though man's intentions are good, but he might have some mistakes in there. So labour for ourselves, let us do the hard work first,....read at every chance we get, then compare doctrines if we are in a church, and test everything. It's our soul that is at stake here.  We are representatives of Christ to the world.  Christ does not want his representatives preaching error in doctrine, because we stand for "the truth".  We are all about "truth" down to the last fine detail.

 

 

Christ did warn that wolves would come in (to the churches) so for us to be aware. They have mingled themselves in there.  This is where the false prophets are, the ones bringing in new teachings, and there are many (40,000 or so christian doctrines) .  So don't be afraid if one little man flying solo is testifying of scripture,...he will not influence "the massess", he is not the wolf,...because the wolf goes for the many sheep, the whole flock, and the flock ask no questions? 

 

So go directly to the bible for the true doctrine and Christ will give it....because of those wolves about, beware.  They are the ones causing the "falling away" amongst the churches.

 

If you are saying you're amillenial then that is the most shameful belief any professing Christian can make.

Don't bother responding, im not gonna read it. Get the basics of eschatology straightened out.

 

 

 

I had to look this word up again.  You see, I don't follow the world's lingo.  The world is always catagorising christian beliefs, sectioning off people and causing division.  I say something is the truth or it isn't, I don't put people into a box.

 

Amillennialism (Greek: a- "no" + millennialism), in Christian eschatology, involves the rejection of the belief that Jesus will have a literal, thousand-year-long, physical reign on the earth.

 

I guess I am not this.  You most certaintly have not read my posts regarding the thousand years coming?  I think I speak about it more than anyone here.  In fact I was speaking about it 10 years ago and accused of all such things and catagorised into not just one box but a few, and they did it with such hate.

This belief was not popular amongst many christians because they never heard of it then, but now can see, but not so clearly with all the fine details.

 

So to get the basics of "end time prophecy events" (which is a better word in my opinion, as the "eschatology" word is only for the "learned" and not a word the "simple" understand), we have to separate fact from fiction, and I declare whether anyone agrees or not that the 70th week in Daniel was completed at the destruction of the temple in 70ad. 

 

I am up for this challenge, so if you want to challenge me, lets bring out our swords!....and do it the proper way using scripture and studying what it actually says. 

 

So let's go back to the drawing board if you are up to it, and I'll prove it to you.

 

 

The 70 weeks are definitely fulfilled without doubt .. I agree wholeheartedly Sister .. hence the (spiritual) desolation we still see in Israel today which desolation is prophesied to prevail long after that 70 week completion, even right up until the consummation which takes place at the 2nd coming .. when that veil is removed from not only Israel, but the whole world too.

 

God bless.

[InSeasonOut]

 If he finds us sincere he will give the holy spirit (spirit of truth) not in full at first, but in small doses, measure by measure, bit by bit.  The more hungry we are, the more we search, the more we find, we understand.  This is how the spirit teaches, until our measure is nearly full after much seeking on our own.

I am not church taught so not used to all your terms and interpretations.  I find many of them strange.  Maybe I am "strange"  I'll accept that.

 

 

Amillennialism (Greek: a- "no" + millennialism), in Christian eschatology, involves the rejection of the belief that Jesus will have a literal, thousand-year-long, physical reign on the earth.

 

I guess I am not this.  You most certaintly have not read my posts regarding the thousand years coming?  I think I speak about it more than anyone here.  In fact I was speaking about it 10 years ago and accused of all such things and catagorised into not just one box but a few, and they did it with such hate.

This belief was not popular amongst many christians because they never heard of it then, but now can see, but not so clearly with all the fine details.

 

So to get the basics of "end time prophecy events" (which is a better word in my opinion, as the "eschatology" word is only for the "learned" and not a word the "simple" understand), we have to separate fact from fiction, and I declare whether anyone agrees or not that the 70th week in Daniel was completed at the destruction of the temple in 70ad. 

 

I am up for this challenge, so if you want to challenge me, lets bring out our swords!....and do it the proper way using scripture and studying what it actually says. 

 

So let's go back to the drawing board if you are up to it, and I'll prove it to you.

 

 

The Holy Spirit is given AT salvation. When a person comes to God as a sinner, repents and puts their faith in Jesus Christ, his blood washes away all sin and

they get the Holy Spirit. Not part of it...All. There is a major heresy out there that teaches you get saved, then later you seek the Holy Spirit... major heresy.

IDK if thats what you were saying, but thats important to understand.

Salvation is a free gift, by grace thru faith in Christ alone.

 

And amillenialism can also be defined as all the prophetc events dealing with revelation are fulfilled in the 1st century with the fall of Jerusalem

and John was just writing poetically... and some say were in the "millenial kingdom" right now..and its not a literal thousand years....

 

Totally unscriptural,.. the other 2 views are pre-millenialism and post-millenialism.

 

I believe the Bible clearly teaches a pre-millenial coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. At His second coming there is war, then the literal 1000 yr kingdom

 

(post-mill teaches that Christians build the kingdom without Christ present, and they have a 1000 yrs of peace, then Christ comes back at the end...

that one might be worse then amillenial.... idk its close...)

 

These are all "eschatology" views... Complex terms, yes.. When studying in depth I've learned the terms along the way.

Seem to be in common use..

I do not debate. Especially with other Christians. I believe debate is a sin, Romans 1:29,KJV -  its listed in the things that come from a reprobate mind.

And debate goes back to the ancient pagan rome era... I understand many Christian apologists debate today and they aren't "reprobate"

but they should not debate...especially if they use or support the new bible versions....whole different subject there

BTW what denomination do you hold?

[Sister]

InseasonOut

 

The Holy Spirit is given AT salvation. When a person comes to God as a sinner, repents and puts their faith in Jesus Christ, his blood washes away all sin and

they get the Holy Spirit. Not part of it...All. There is a major heresy out there that teaches you get saved, then later you seek the Holy Spirit... major heresy.

IDK if thats what you were saying, but thats important to understand.

 

 

When we come to Christ with a repentant heart we know nothing except that He is Lord and has the power to forgive sins.

He then wipes the slate clean for us.  All past sins are forgiven for we were in darkness and acknowledge that. We start a new walk with fresh eyes.

Now we have to build on this new foundation.  To know what is good and evil we have to seek. The door was opened to us so that we can really find God, Christ did that, .....now we have to walk through that door and continue down that long journey where the road becomes narrow because of all the obstacles coming our way.

 

We are covered for a certain amount of time whilst searching the scriptures.  We will make many many mistakes unknowingly, because we are like babes knowing nothing, eager to learn.

If we don't feed on the scriptures, we will not know what is good and what is evil right down the finest detail, we will fall off that narrow road, and produce rotten fruits.  These are stains on our garments.

 

To have this ignorance in not seeking Christ's word, results in doing the things not fitting for a saint.  If we stop seeking we will still have spots on our garments, because we are bound to be led into error.

 

This once saved always saved just because we said the sinners prayer is nonsense.  It is false hope.  There is a requirement of change, space to repent - borrowed time, and every man goes at his own pace, therefore different measures of the holy spirit are given in small doses.  The holy spirit is given to us to encourage us to keep seeking for all the answers.

 

Do you understand that the holy spirit is "the spirit of truth"? 

It's not given all at once, it's given measure by measure according to how much one labours in seeking truth.

 

If you have the "full measure" of the holy spirit, then you must be perfect knowing all truth?

That means "everything" has been shown to you because you laboured hard (searched the scriptures).

Because that's how it goes. 

Only Christ had the holy spirit in full measure.  How can we even compare ourselves to what he knows?

Each man is given a different measure according to his labours.

 

Ephesians 4:7   But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

 

Romans 12:3   For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

 

 

 2 Timothy 3:17   That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

 Revelation 3:2   Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

[Bible2]

InSeasonOut said in post 75:

 

The Holy Spirit is given AT salvation. When a person comes to God as a sinner, repents and puts their faith in Jesus Christ, his blood washes away all sin and

 

they get the Holy Spirit. Not part of it...All.

 

Note that besides getting water baptized, believers can get Holy Spirit baptized (Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46). And they usually have to ask to receive the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13b) baptism, for it is usually not given to them automatically at the moment they become believers. That is why Paul the apostle asked some believers: "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" (Acts 19:2).

 

Believers usually receive Holy Spirit baptism through prayer accompanied by the laying on of hands, subsequent to water baptism (Acts 8:15-17, Acts 19:5-6). Holy Spirit baptism won't result in speaking in tongues for everyone (1 Corinthians 12:30), but for almost everyone, as tongues are one of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8,9,10,11,28; 1 Corinthians 14:5). Many believers haven't yet experienced Holy Spirit baptism simply because they haven't yet asked for it, under the principle of "ye have not, because ye ask not" (James 4:2b). Many believers haven't yet asked for it because they have come under the influence of mistaken teachings which say it is no longer in effect. Believers can get hands laid on them to receive Holy Spirit baptism at any Pentecostal-type congregation, or at any charismatic-type congregation, which can be of almost any denomination.

 

InSeasonOut said in post 75:

 

The Holy Spirit is given AT salvation. When a person comes to God as a sinner, repents and puts their faith in Jesus Christ, his blood washes away all sin and

 

they get the Holy Spirit. Not part of it...All.

 

Everyone, both believers and unbelievers, has some minimal measure of God's Spirit by which they are able to exist (Acts 17:28, Psalms 104:30) and have human consciousness (John 1:9). Believers have some greater measure of the Spirit, by which they are able to understand and believe the scriptures (1 Corinthians 2:12-16, John 20:22, Luke 24:45-47). Believers who have received Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 11:16, Acts 19:2a,6) have an even greater measure of the Spirit, by which they are able to operate in one or more of the Spirit's gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-11). Because Jesus is God (John 1:1,14), he has the Spirit in an infinite amount, beyond measure (John 3:34).

 

InSeasonOut said in post 75:

 

Salvation is a free gift, by grace thru faith in Christ alone.

 

Initial salvation is by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

 

InSeasonOut said in post 75:

 

I believe the Bible clearly teaches a pre-millenial coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

That's right.

 

For there are at least 8 scriptural reasons to read the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6 as not beginning until after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7-21.

 

First, this is in accord with how the rest of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are in chronological order, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

 

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

 

-

 

Second, the 1,000 years in Revelation 20:2-6 is when Satan will be literally bound with a chain, and cast into and locked within the literal bottomless pit, while currently he is walking about freely on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet. But their beginning after Jesus' 2nd coming makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

Third, during the 1,000 years, Satan won't be able to deceive the world (Revelation 20:3), while currently he is able to deceive the world (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Corinthians 11:3,14,15; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:14, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet.

 

Fourth, the defeat of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is in chronological accord with the immediately preceding defeat of the Antichrist (the individual man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet, and the world's armies, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21). Indeed, there is no chapter break between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 in the original Greek manuscripts, so that Revelation 19:19 to 20:3 can be taken together as a unit, showing how every power of evil will be defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming.

 

Fifth, reading Revelation 20:4-6 as Jesus and the bodily resurrected church reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches Jesus reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming in Zechariah 14:3-21. For Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth, because it refers to a temple building in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:20-21), while there will be no temple building in New Jerusalem on the new earth (Revelation 21:22). Also, Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth because it refers to surviving, unsaved people from the present earth being forced to come up to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19), while by the time of the new earth, all the unsaved people from the present earth will have already been cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15 to 21:8).

 

Sixth, reading the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches other verses which show that the physical resurrection of the church will occur at the 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

 

Seventh, reading the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:5, which must refer in its entirety to only physical resurrection. For not every dead person is going to be figuratively resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15). And Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (i.e. all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but the rest of the dead won't be resurrected until sometime after the 1,000 years.

 

Eighth, reading the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:4, which shows that the people in the 1st resurrection will include those in the church who will have been beheaded by the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) for not worshipping him or his image, or receiving his mark on their hand or forehead. This refers back to the details of Revelation 13:4-18, which have never been fulfilled. So the 1st resurrection can't have happened yet. But its occurring at Jesus' 2nd coming, when he will defeat the Antichrist, makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:20 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9).

 

InSeasonOut said in post 75:

 

BTW what denomination do you hold?

 

Believers shouldn't identify themselves after any man-made denomination (1 Corinthians 1:12-13; 1 Corinthians 3:4), but should simply be "Christians" (Acts 11:26b, 1 Peter 4:16).

[Sister]

InSeasonOut

 

I believe the Bible clearly teaches a pre-millenial coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. At His second coming there is war, then the literal 1000 yr kingdom

 

 

Yes I agree with this one.

 

These are all "eschatology" views... Complex terms, yes.. When studying in depth I've learned the terms along the way.

Seem to be in common use..

 

Yes I understand, but people from all walks of life are reading and learning.  Not everyone has studied at uni, or like to study those who have studied others.  They just want to know what God is saying in a plain language.

 

 

 

I do not debate. Especially with other Christians. I believe debate is a sin, Romans 1:29,KJV -  its listed in the things that come from a reprobate mind.

 

Ok, that's fine, but we have been debating already!   If two people disagree and they bring forth their evidence, then it turns into a debate. I like to call it "reasoning".  I just wanted to address another topic I feel is important.

And debate goes back to the ancient pagan rome era... I understand many Christian apologists debate today and they aren't "reprobate"

but they should not debate...especially if they use or support the new bible versions....whole different subject there

 

I do not use new bible versions, and yes this can become a big problem.

 

BTW what denomination do you hold?

 

None.  I was baptised RC as a baby but my parents never took me to church.  All my cousins received holy communion but my mum wouldn't let me go to bible study classes for some unknown reason.  She was raised strict catholic and so was my dad, but when they married they stayed away from the church and kept us kids away.  I went only a few times with my grandmother but found it really boring.  I didn't learn a thing but always wondered what that wafer would taste like.

 

I started reading the scriptures for myself at 12 (nearly 13) I read the whole new testament on my own in my bedroom with the door closed.  I was so intrigued, I couldn't put the book down.  At 18 I got coersed into going  to a pentecostal church and I got baptised a few months later.  I never accepted their offer of bible studying with them, because I had already been reading and did not see the need.  I guess you could say I was very cautious.  I loved the people but  didn't stay long because it's not my thing.  I wanted to concentrate more on learning what the scriptures had to say and get myself right, other than trying to spend every day getting new converts in.  You see what I would preach, and what they would preach would sometimes be conflicting, so I couldn't stay.  I didn't go there knowing nothing, because I had the foundations already laid with some knowledge that I found all by myself through all those days and long nights of reading.

 

So now 25 years later, I have just me and the bible, and this is what I follow.  I have spoken to so many people about the scriptures all these years, and it's always been the right time, right opportunity situation.  A quiet unexpected moment with some great discussions.  I know a lot more than what I first did, so I can answer most of their questions now with confidence and scriptures to back up, whereas before in my early days I used to get tripped up alot, and cornered because I couldn't answer a specific question they really needed to turn them around.  So with time and seeking, God has provided those answers for me in the scriptures.  It just took me a while to find them, because it's a growth process, I had to keep on reading and go over and over the things I had already read.  ....But when I started reading the old testament, it was like  wow...and opened so many doors.  I could put the whole two books together and see this wonderful picture from beginning to end so clear.

 

But as for new converts...not one.  No one is interested the next time I see them.  There is a very big dry spell at the moment and everyone seems to be so hooked up into this world and not interested in what the Lord has to say.  It is very sad indeed.  so I fly solo, but I am not alone.

[InSeasonOut]

 

This once saved always saved just because we said the sinners prayer is nonsense.  It is false hope.  There is a requirement of change, space to repent - borrowed time, and every man goes at his own pace, therefore different measures of the holy spirit are given in small doses.  The holy spirit is given to us to encourage us to keep seeking for all the answers.

 

Do you understand that the holy spirit is "the spirit of truth"? 

It's not given all at once, it's given measure by measure according to how much one labours in seeking truth.

 

The Bible clearly teaches eternal security. It's called faith and sound doctrine, not "false hope"

There are so many scriptures proving this by a simple reading of scripture. Eph 1:12-14 Romans 8:33-39 John 10:28 etc etc etc..

Since you deny eternal security, you are saying you can lose salvation and have to do works to keep it?

And if its lost you can be born again again and again and again? Chapter and verse?

What sin determines the loss of salvation? Do you have to be sinlessly perfect?

 

I already know the answers, but what really bothers me is you really did say the Holy Spirit is not given at salvation....

Acts 2:38 vs. 8:14-17 vs. 10:44-48     

The Apostle Peter was directly observant of the reception of the Holy Ghost by three separate groups of people. Three thousand repentant Jews received the Holy Ghost after they were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in Acts 2:38. The Samaritans followed the same pattern, but Peter needed to pray and lay hands on them before they received the Holy Ghost in Acts 8:14-17. After Peter preached the gospel to Cornelius and other Gentiles the Spirit of God fell upon them before they were baptized in Acts 10:44-48. These variations confused the Apostles and in a special meeting Peter concluded salvation by grace through faith (Acts 15:7-11). If a Gentile does not understand the doctrinal variations, the safe choice is Acts 10. The Holy Ghost is received by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in this age (Galatians 3:14; Ephesians 1:12-14).

 

This is why rightly dividing the word of truth is important.. Be careful getting doctrine out of Acts. It's a transition book.

We recieve the Holy Ghost by faith, at salvation.

[InSeasonOut]

 

 

Note that besides getting water baptized, believers can get Holy Spirit baptized (Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46). And they usually have to ask to receive the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13b) baptism, for it is usually not given to them automatically at the moment they become believers. That is why Paul the apostle asked some believers: "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" (Acts 19:2).

 

Believers usually receive Holy Spirit baptism through prayer accompanied by the laying on of hands, subsequent to water baptism (Acts 8:15-17, Acts 19:5-6). Holy Spirit baptism won't result in speaking in tongues for everyone (1 Corinthians 12:30), but for almost everyone, as tongues are one of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8,9,10,11,28; 1 Corinthians 14:5). Many believers haven't yet experienced Holy Spirit baptism simply because they haven't yet asked for it, under the principle of "ye have not, because ye ask not" (James 4:2b). Many believers haven't yet asked for it because they have come under the influence of mistaken teachings which say it is no longer in effect. Believers can get hands laid on them to receive Holy Spirit baptism at any Pentecostal-type congregation, or at any charismatic-type congregation, which can be of almost any denomination.

 

 

 

 

Everyone, both believers and unbelievers, has some minimal measure of God's Spirit by which they are able to exist (Acts 17:28, Psalms 104:30) and have human consciousness (John 1:9). Believers have some greater measure of the Spirit, by which they are able to understand and believe the scriptures (1 Corinthians 2:12-16, John 20:22, Luke 24:45-47). Believers who have received Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 11:16, Acts 19:2a,6) have an even greater measure of the Spirit, by which they are able to operate in one or more of the Spirit's gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-11). Because Jesus is God (John 1:1,14), he has the Spirit in an infinite amount, beyond measure (John 3:34).

 

Believers shouldn't identify themselves after any man-made denomination but should simply be "Christians"

 

 

First i agree on not being part of a "denomination" - they are unscriptural. Why i asked is because, many heresies arise IN denominations

Like the Charismatic / pentecostal especially....

 

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is salvation. - It's not get saved then seek Holy Spirit baptism...

Acts 10 - Gentiles - recieved the Spirit by faith. and indwells every born again believer - Romans 8:9

Again, this is what i mean by rightly dividing, understand - Acts 2 Jews - - Acts 8 Samaritans - Acts 10 Gentiles

The Gospel went to the Jew first, Acts is a transition book, be careful getting doctrine for todays Christians from it.

BTW you wouldn't catch me dead in a pentecostal babble building. Those places are filled with devils.

 

Bible2  says Quote :

"Everyone, both believers and unbelievers, has some minimal measure of God's Spirit by which they are able to exist"

    End quote

This is so wrong... so heretical and blasphemous i don't know what to say... is that what the pentecostals told you?

Repent... Thats disgusting

[Sister]

The Bible clearly teaches eternal security. It's called faith and sound doctrine, not "false hope"

 

The only hope we have is in Christ.  It is the only way. You are not understanding what I am saying.

There are so many scriptures proving this by a simple reading of scripture. Eph 1:12-14 Romans 8:33-39 John 10:28 etc etc etc..

Since you deny eternal security, you are saying you can lose salvation and have to do works to keep it?

And if its lost you can be born again again and again and again? Chapter and verse?

What sin determines the loss of salvation? Do you have to be sinlessly perfect?

 

I believe every word Christ said.  His promises are true.  He is going to collect all in him at his coming,  if (big if) we follow through and finish the journey we started right to the end.

You don't believe that some can fall way?  That some are not loyal to Christ, simply because they have not followed all his instructions?

We don't want to be in this category of missing out and need to look at his instructions very carefully so that we do not miss out on the promises.

The works I am speaking about is the "labour" to seek truth.  If we put this effort in, we will reap the rewards.  Some don't read the scriptures InseasonOut.  Or they just read a tiny bit and forget the rest. They do not get to find the whole plan of God laid out for us so they cannot defend the truth.

 

 

 

I already know the answers, but what really bothers me is you really did say the Holy Spirit is not given at salvation....

Acts 2:38 vs. 8:14-17 vs. 10:44-48   

 

  

 Acts 2:38   Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

Repent is that key word.  We must truly repent.

 

The Apostle Peter was directly observant of the reception of the Holy Ghost by three separate groups of people. Three thousand repentant Jews received the Holy Ghost after they were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in Acts 2:38. The Samaritans followed the same pattern, but Peter needed to pray and lay hands on them before they received the Holy Ghost in Acts 8:14-17. After Peter preached the gospel to Cornelius and other Gentiles the Spirit of God fell upon them before they were baptized in Acts 10:44-48. These variations confused the Apostles and in a special meeting Peter concluded salvation by grace through faith (Acts 15:7-11). If a Gentile does not understand the doctrinal variations, the safe choice is Acts 10. The Holy Ghost is received by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in this age (Galatians 3:14; Ephesians 1:12-14).

 

This was a singled out event.  The holy spirit was being poured out this day.  The testimony of Christ completed.  This day went for a witness to them, even to us now, that Christ is Lord, but this is not happening today.

They were speaking in other tongues, different languages.  Have you heard of this happening today?  Have you ever spoken in Japaneses to a stranger so that he can hear the word of the Lord?  Or spoken in Spanish or a language you never knew just to get Christ's message accross?  There was a purpose for this.  All who heard them speak in their own tongue went back and testified of this.

 There is no pouring out of the holy spirit like that day.  That day was special and unique.  This was a witness against the Jews and Christ's name was now going out to the gentiles also.

 

If you have been filled like this, then you should be able to speak any language by the spirit at any given moment, seeing you are using this as an example.

 

So what happened that day is not what I am speaking about. I'm speaking about the spirit of truth, the comforter, the holy spirit that is given to each and every one of us in different measures.  Understanding God's speech.  Understanding the actual scriptures written, being shown the truth not all at once, but more and more daily, adding to our knowledge the things Christ shares with us the more we seek him.

 

If one comes to Christ and repents, many will be touched by the holy spirit because Christ will reveal himself, and give that assurance that he is the door.  It doesn't mean he knows everything by the spirit of truth though, only that Christ is Lord because he is only a babe and now has to learn  everything that Christ is going to command as a guide.  It's a process and it's got to start somewhere.

 

Many, many Christians come to Christ and repent and get baptised, and experience the holy spirit, and many many Christians fall away off that path.  Some end up being luke warm and some only continue for a time then don't come back. Can you not see this?