Understanding the Final One Seven

[Serving]

18 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

1.  Well I don't agree with this assessment of yours.

Then lets discuss ..

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2. Are you saying God's plan for Salvation was the abominations, or the desolation?

No, you are mistaken, I never said that. However if you go back and read Daniel 9:27 again, you will come to see that the overspreading of abominations was quite obviously FROM the Israelite's doing when looking at it from the perspective that I do. 

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3. Fulfilling and confirming are two totally actions.

confirm.  verb (used with object)
1. to establish the truth, accuracy, validity, or genuineness of; corroborate; verify:
.....This report confirms my suspicions.
2. to acknowledge with definite assurance:
.....Did the hotel confirm our room reservation?
3. to make valid or binding by some formal or legal act; sanction; ratify:
.....to confirm a treaty; to confirm her appointment to the Supreme Court.
4. to make firm or more firm; add strength to; settle or establish firmly:
.....Their support confirmed my determination to run for mayor.
5. to strengthen (a person) in habit, resolution, opinion, etc.:
.....The accident confirmed him in his fear of driving.
6. to administer the religious rite of confirmation to

fulfill.  verb (used with object)
1. to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise. 
2. to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.
3. to satisfy (requirements, obligations, etc.):
.....a book that fulfills a long-felt need.
4. to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time:
.....He felt that life was over when one had fulfilled his threescore years and ten.
5. to develop the full potential of (usually used reflexively):
.....She realized that she could never fulfill herself in such work.

4. Now, exactly what did Jesus do to "confirm" (and that is not what gabar means) a covenant with many?  Please stay within standard denotation for what is to confirm a covenant - which is not God's set of conditions, nor His promises, nor prophecy: a covenant.  I ask because even with the KJV translation of gabar, which as a verb means: to prevail as to confirm - I'm still trying to nail down exactly what those who say 'Jesus confirmed a covenant:' actually was.

Easy, Christ confirmed the covenant by keeping it even up to His crucifixion.  

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5. Exactly which Covenant did Jesus confirm?  You say the 1st, but there is more than one.  
- Do you mean the one with Noah?
- Or is it the Covenant that God made with Abraham?
- Or is it the Covenant that God made with David?

Marcus .. It is quite obvious that the covenant being confirmed was the covenant kept by the ones who were keeping it in Christ's day .. the Israelite's .. Don't forget this, "He came unto His own", so it was "His own" by default to whom the covenant in question obviously pertains .. and we all know what covenant "they" kept .. I am aware of those examples you gave and ask that you please stay within the obvious context of the text without attempting to confuse the matter. 

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6. Since this covenant is only "confirmed" for seven years: - When did the New Covenant (you point to as Jesus making:) expire?

Don't forget that the prophecy was time allotted to Israel herself.

Israel had 70 weeks within which to accomplish the laid out requirements .. and they (Israel) as a nation, failed.  

So the New Covenant did not "expire" as you put it, please don't confuse the message of the prophecy .. but Israel's set time limit itself (70 weeks) from which to accept their messiah (and by default accept His New Covenant) expired .. Israel's acceptance of that New Covenant to be found within the set time of 70 weeks expired .. and it (time limit) was set at a national level .. NOT an individual level .. very important to understand that point.

Now Israel as a nation, spiritually speaking, was represented by the Sanhedrin .. they were the representatives of God to the people/NATION ..  and some 3 1/2 years after crucifixion, something very telling occurred .. The final judgement the Sanhedrin made whether to accept Christ's covenant or reject it was made, and it was done PUBLICLY .. a PUBLIC debate and WITNESS took place with Stephen .. and the result? 

The result was a final rejecting of Christ's New Covenant along with His disciples, and, after stoning Stephen (rejecting the word (covenant) he spoke), the command went out to capture and kill all those who taught Christ .. THIS signified the end of the time allotment for national Israel to accept their Messiah and His New Covenant ..

And the result of that national rejection was national punishment to come (the consequence of rejection) in the form of 70ad.

Interestingly, in Jewish writings, it was custom that a red ribbon kept within the temple was known to turn white after the national sacrifice took place, according to Jewish writings, this process ceased working around the time of Christ's crucifixion .. hmmmm.    

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7. (Extra credit, because you didn't get there yet:) Upon whom were God's desolations poured out after Jesus was either the abomination or the desolation?

This question is a complete misunderstanding of my position .. see above for clarity. 

[Serving]

5 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

I am really having some problems understanding your language here.

That is why it is prudent to hear a matter before misjudging it .. let's see if we can sort this through ..

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Now, I understand that you feel that Jesus confirmed the 1st (undefined) covenant - starting the one 'seven' coincidental with His Ministry - and is not "confirming" the New Testament during that time.

No I don't "feel", I know He confirmed the 1st covenant, which covenant I "defined" in my previous reply to you regarding the same charge .. again, even the scriptures agree He confirmed the covenant simply because Jesus KEPT the covenant .. He kept it/abided by it until crucifixion even.

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However, you draw a conclusion when you say: "this by necessity then," - which puzzles me because it seems a leap of logic past any historical perspective that for three and a half years after Jesus was crucified, buried, raised, and ascended - that He could have been "confirming" the New Covenant He made at the Last Supper and sealed with His own shed Blood on the cross - even after He ascended to Heaven as portrayed in Acts 1:11 - and then abruptly stop doing so.

Marcus it's really quite simple .. Christ confirmed His covenant through His Disciples ..  

Mark 16

19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

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The period in time that Jesus was on the earth was only days.  We have several witnesses to His Being present on the earth after His Resurrection and before His Ascension, but He ascended to Heaven in Acts 1:11 before the Festival of Firstfruits or Pentecost, which happens 50 days after the same Passover on which He was crucified.

HOW did you come to that conclusion Marcus? Let me help you correct your error with scripture :

Acts 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

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Even if I try to say that Jesus continued to "confirm" the New Covenant for three and a half years, that is NOT the same covenant you said He "confirmed" at the start of His Ministry, and the language of Daniel 9:27 does not allow for multiple or plural covenants, but a covenant.

So how could Jesus be "confirming" the 1st covenant (which I'm still trying to understand which covenant God made in the OT you mean) AFTER making the New Covenant? And how and when did that end?

Marcus, you are confusing yourself needlessly.

For the Messiah to be ELIGIBLE to bring in the New Covenant, He must first fulfil that which is REQUIRED and SPOKEN of Him within the "volume of the book" wherein is the Old Covenant.

And as I pointed out, Christ did indeed abide by the Law during His ministry by keeping that covenants Law/requirements of which He did indeed fulfill, and that fulfilment He achieved WAS the confirming of that very same covenant .. it is really that simple.

And since He confirmed that 1st covenant, He was then authorised BY THAT confirmation to bring in the 2nd covenant which was the COMPLETION of the FIRST.

And seeing the New Covenant is the completion of the 1st covenant, then the two in fact become ONE .. do you understand this concept Marcus?  

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The end of the one 'seven' in Daniel 9:27 has the desolations that have been decreed, first mentioned in v.26 as then being "poured out" (how apt a description for the Bowl Judgments) on the desolator.  You leave this out.  I cannot see how this can possibly fit into your take on Jesus being the actor to begin the one 'seven'.

 

Ah, but you assume by your understanding that the 70 weeks are not completed .. but your understanding is not my understanding .. I say the 70 weeks ARE complete.

Read the text again to see the subtle "clause" God included that you (and all others holding your assumption) have overlooked :

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Now it's my turn to question you .. Can you see the "clause" within that verse which answers your question?

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So I would like to hear how you deal with these internal inconsistencies in your exegesis of Daniel 9:27.

 Again, the so called "internal inconsistencies" are nothing more than a matter of perspective .. understand my perspective and the "inconsistencies" disappear.

Thank you.

[Montana Marv]

Serving

Israel has not benefited from the six tasks of Dan 9:24.  So the 70th Week has not started nor is it finished.  The 70 Weeks are all about Israel.  Not until they benefit (receive Christ as their Messiah) will the 70th Week be finished.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Serving]

3 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Serving

Israel has not benefited from the six tasks of Dan 9:24.  So the 70th Week has not started nor is it finished.  The 70 Weeks are all about Israel.  Not until they benefit (receive Christ as their Messiah) will the 70th Week be finished.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Montana,

Where in that chapter is it said Israel won't "benefit" until they accept messiah?

It doesn't speak of that as being a requirement to fulfil the 70 weeks at all .. all it says is up "to Messiah the Prince" !!

It also says that their Holy City will be destroyed which itself foretells of a failure to fulfil the requirements of the 70 weeks, to me .. and since Jerusalem was destroyed, then obviously, to me, they completed the 70 weeks yet failed the requirements on a national level.

I can not accept 69 weeks followed by a gap leading to the final week some 2000 years later by any stretch .. ignoring that interpretation has no bearing on any other prophecies regarding today's Israel, only on the validity of those who says it does, which I am not a partaker of.

I do however believe that the "missing week" was the week in which Christ's ministry began up to crucifixion and followed by Him confirming His covenant for the last part of that week through His Disciples which explains why He was "cut off" in the midst of that week.

It's a matter of perspective of which we obviously do not agree.

Cheers. 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

23 hours ago, Serving said:

No, you are mistaken, I never said that. However if you go back and read Daniel 9:27 again, you will come to see that the overspreading of abominations was quite obviously FROM the Israelite's doing when looking at it from the perspective that I do. 

You were the one who said Jesus was cut off in the midst of the week.  Now in the midst of the week is the 'on wing, abominations, desolation.  So which was Jesus?  It is not quite obviously from the Israeli's doing; that may be your perspective though, but it does not comport with the language Gabriel uses.

23 hours ago, Serving said:

Easy, Christ confirmed the covenant by keeping it even up to His crucifixion.  

No, that is not within the definition of "confirm" - even if we let that be the definition of gabar when used as a verb: and it's not.  
Keeping some vague covenant which you cannot name fits under the second definition of fulfill.
So, not so easy, in fact, you cannot answer how Jesus established more firmly any of the OT covenants.

23 hours ago, Serving said:

Marcus .. It is quite obvious that the covenant being confirmed was the covenant kept by the ones who were keeping it in Christ's day .. the Israelite's ..

No, it's not obvious at all because you can't point to any specific act which buttressed a specific covenant that God made with Man.  "the Israelite's" is not a theologically recognized covenant.  I dare you to define its inception, its terms, and name chapter and verse where it stands written in Scripture.  So far, you haven't been able to lend credence to any of your assertions.  You just stand by them.  I used to that with Preterist notions about Daniel 9:27.

It's not that hard; pick a specific covenant that God made, that Jesus made better and tell me how.  Absent that: you haven't any structure for your beliefs.

23 hours ago, Serving said:

Don't forget that the prophecy was time allotted to Israel herself.

I start with this in explaining the message Gabriel gives when I do the exegesis of it.  It is not for "Israel" but Daniel's people.  Daniel's people is defined by the Man in Linen in the last narrative in his book as being those who will inherit heaven.  That includes us; Daniel is one of us: the Elect.  Daniel 12:1b "...time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued."  God said it; He set the definition for Daniel's people.  Gabriel just conveyed that same message - which is unchanging when he said: "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people..." - everyone written in the book.  Scripture interprets Scripture.  Daniel will be called up with the Dead in Christ to receive his allotted portion (inheritance) at the end of the age - Daniel 12:13.

[Serving]

On 23/06/2016 at 3:03 AM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

You were the one who said Jesus was cut off in the midst of the week.  Now in the midst of the week is the 'on wing, abominations, desolation.  So which was Jesus?  It is not quite obviously from the Israeli's doing; that may be your perspective though, but it does not comport with the language Gabriel uses.

No, that is not within the definition of "confirm" - even if we let that be the definition of gabar when used as a verb: and it's not.  
Keeping some vague covenant which you cannot name fits under the second definition of fulfill.
So, not so easy, in fact, you cannot answer how Jesus established more firmly any of the OT covenants.

No, it's not obvious at all because you can't point to any specific act which buttressed a specific covenant that God made with Man.  "the Israelite's" is not a theologically recognized covenant.  I dare you to define its inception, its terms, and name chapter and verse where it stands written in Scripture.  So far, you haven't been able to lend credence to any of your assertions.  You just stand by them.  I used to that with Preterist notions about Daniel 9:27.

It's not that hard; pick a specific covenant that God made, that Jesus made better and tell me how.  Absent that: you haven't any structure for your beliefs.

I start with this in explaining the message Gabriel gives when I do the exegesis of it.  It is not for "Israel" but Daniel's people.  Daniel's people is defined by the Man in Linen in the last narrative in his book as being those who will inherit heaven.  That includes us; Daniel is one of us: the Elect.  Daniel 12:1b "...time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued."  God said it; He set the definition for Daniel's people.  Gabriel just conveyed that same message - which is unchanging when he said: "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people..." - everyone written in the book.  Scripture interprets Scripture.  Daniel will be called up with the Dead in Christ to receive his allotted portion (inheritance) at the end of the age - Daniel 12:13.

Q: WHAT were the Jews waiting for AFTER they rebuilt Jerusalem and the City .. WAITING for centuries since it's completion in the light of Daniel 9?

A: Only TWO "things" .. MESSIAH & COVENANT.

Q: And WHAT do we see in the below verses?

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

A: MESSIAH & COVENANT.

Now the Jews were NOT expecting some COVENANT being confirmed with some invading army WITHIN this 70 weeks, no, but they WERE expecting MESSIAH & COVENANT to come .. and it was expected to take place WITHIN the prescribed 70 weeks too.

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

THAT is WHAT they were WAITING FOR.

Now pay close attention :

Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

THAT COVENANT .. Christ was CONFIRMING the 1st COVENANT as it is PLAINLY revealed above .. as I tried telling you.

Now look again :

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week

Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 

AND THAT covenant TRANSITIONED into THIS NEW covenant Mark speaks of below AFTER crucifixion .. hence His "confirming the covenant with many for one week" being understood in the light of "cut off in the midst of the week" being "cut off" because the covenant contains TWO PARTS by necessity, BOTH parts of that ONE COVENANT needed CONFIRMING .. ONE covenant that became something NEW.

Mark 16

19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

His WORD being confirmed is His COVENANT !!!

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Christ's sacrifice ENDED Israel's sacrifice and oblation .. meaning He made it CEASE .. we all know Christ performed this by His sacrifice, you should know it too.

and for the overspreading of abominations

Leviticus 18:26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:

Deuteronomy 32:16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.

TINY TINY example for you Marcus .. there are HUNDREDS more ..

Even all throughout 2 Kings through to the LAST book of Malachi they Israel) cast abominations overspreading God's covenant, even up to Christ's time they cast abominations over God's covenant, I mean honestly Marcus, It's all throughout the Old and New Testaments, you just need to hear what is being said  :

Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Matthew 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Matthew 23:16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Matthew 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Matthew 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

THEY are in relation to God's COVENANT .. as you can see .. The SCRIBES & PHARISEES (overseers/representatives of the LAW/COVENANT) by their works have made it ABOMINABLE .. it is the JEWS who are guilty of the overspreading of abominations to the COVENANT like I tried telling you .. HEAR the message, it is everywhere in the bible.

he shall make it desolate

So the Jews made it (the covenant) polluted by their overspreading of abominations, and Christ made that covenant desolate/null/invalid, by bringing in His New Covenant 

Surely you don't require me to prove that basic tenet even?

Nevertheless .. 

HOW LONG shall that COVENANT (and by extension that NATION) remain DESOLATE ??

HOW LONG .....

even until the consummation

The consummation occurs at Christ's 2nd coming when He takes His throne over all the earth and in front of ALL MANKIND .. so WHAT is that telling us?

It is telling us that even right up to Christ's return, Israel will be UNDER the OLD COVENANT and by THEIR OWN CHOICE .. and that choice ONLY comes about because they still REJECT the New Covenant and it's Christ .. NOT by God's command they keep it, but by THEIR OWN CHOICE they keep it/put themselves under it .. (though there is more to it than that simplistic angle I've given it admittedly, but I'm trying to keep it simple)

So to say that I have no structure to my beliefs was both unnecessary and untrue .. (and this is but a brief overview too, I could fill up pages to back my position if i must)

[Montana Marv]

7 hours ago, Serving said:

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

You are taking these verses out of context;  Do you see the sequence.

1. After the 7 sevens, then the 62 Sevens the Messiah will be cut off.  (Note nothing about a mid-week)

2. AND the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (Titus in 70 AD)

3. AND He will confirm a covenant with many for One Seven  (sometime after 70 AD, yet to be fulfilled))

4. AND in the middle of the week he will put and end to sacrifice and offering.  AND on a wing of the Temple he will set up an A/D until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Serving]

32 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

You are taking these verses out of context;  Do you see the sequence.

1. After the 7 sevens, then the 62 Sevens the Messiah will be cut off.  (Note nothing about a mid-week)

2. AND the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (Titus in 70 AD)

3. AND He will confirm a covenant with many for One Seven  (sometime after 70 AD, yet to be fulfilled))

4. AND in the middle of the week he will put and end to sacrifice and offering.  AND on a wing of the Temple he will set up an A/D until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Problem is, Daniel 9 makes no mention of the A/D within the 70 weeks requirements/consequences .. you guys are ASSUMING there is a missing week and have therefore allocated it into the future and from there ADDED other prophecies into Daniel 9 to make sense of the assumption.

So HOW can I be taking those verses out of context when I am not adding to that chapter using an assumption of a missing week needing filling in with other prophecies not related to Daniel 9 nor in need of Daniel 9?

Sure, one could loosely make that chapter as an allegory reflecting a future event, I'd have no problem with that, but to flat out say that the 70 weeks was not fulfilled back in the day rings false and erroneous to me.

Cheers MM.

[Montana Marv]

10 hours ago, Serving said:

Problem is, Daniel 9 makes no mention of the A/D within the 70 weeks requirements/consequences .. you guys are ASSUMING there is a missing week and have therefore allocated it into the future and from there ADDED other prophecies into Daniel 9 to make sense of the assumption.

So HOW can I be taking those verses out of context when I am not adding to that chapter using an assumption of a missing week needing filling in with other prophecies not related to Daniel 9 nor in need of Daniel 9?

Sure, one could loosely make that chapter as an allegory reflecting a future event, I'd have no problem with that, but to flat out say that the 70 weeks was not fulfilled back in the day rings false and erroneous to me.

Cheers MM.

If the 70th Week is finished Israel would have benefited from the six tasks which were given to them and they would be living and walking with Christ.  They are not.  One must tie Dan 9:24 only to Israel and the holy city, for that is what the verse says.  This is a prophetic verse for Israel to receive or accomplish something by the end of the 70th Week.  It is not prophetic for them not to receive or accomplish something.

You need to show me where Israel and the holy city have finished transgressions, put an end to sin, to atone for their wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.  Why has Israel not fulfilled any of these?,  Because prophecy says they have 70 prophetic weeks to do so.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

Serving

I see in your new post about Israelites and their land, which is quite accurate.  When did this everlasting righteousness begin for Israel.  When did they fully occupy their Land?  When did they begin following Christ or begin being taught by Christ?

In Christ

Montana Marv