Rapture, revisited

[mevosper]

This post is not about the prophecy or timing of the rapture, but the general doctrine of the rapture. Hence I've placed it in the Doctrinal section rather than the prophecy section. For the sake of the post, please keep pre-trib/post-trib/pre-wrath/post-wrath issues out of the discussion. There are plenty of discussions related to that in the Prophecy section.

 

Where I was taught to believe "traditional rapture theology" (TRT), it seems as though my thought process has come full circle. Traditional rapture theory teaches, in general, that Christ will return to: (1) call his dead saints first out of the ground;  and, (2) those saints that are still living. According to TRT, this has yet to happen.

 

As I’ve grown in the word of God over the years, I'm leaning toward another interpretation of the rapture, and post it for your consideration.

It seems to me that the bible teaches more of a Soul/Spiritual "rapture", rather than a flesh/body rapture.  The "snatching" that I'm coming to understand is the soul from the grave. Where as in the old testament, the soul was "buried" with the body. But since Christ's death and RESURRECTION (meaning God conquered death), there was now no more soul "death", but it would be saved from the grave upon the body/flesh death of the believer.

Those that were caught up first (Old Testament saints) were those that had believed in God prior to Christ.

I have a number of bible references, and will post them at a later time with explanation of what I'm thinking.

 

 

[mevosper]

Apologies for the delay.

Where I was taught to believe "traditional rapture theology" (TRT, my label), it seems as though my thought process has come full circle. Traditional rapture theory teaches that Christ will return to call his dead saints first out of the ground and second those saints that are still living (the time of all this is irrelevant i.e. pre-trib/pre-wrath, post-trib/pre-wrath, etc). According to TRT, this has yet to happen.

 

As I’ve grown in the word of God over the years, I’ve come to the learn of another interpretation of the rapture.

 

The Body returns to earth

There are a number of bible verses teaching the flesh will return to the ground.

• [Gen 3:19 KJV] [19] In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

• [Job 34:15 KJV] 15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

• [Psa 104:29 KJV] 29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

• [Ecc 12:7 KJV] [7] Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

The Grave as a prison

From what I’m understanding, the grave in Old Testament writing is compared to a prison.

• [Isa 24:22 KJV] 22 And they shall be gathered together, [as] prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

 

…a ”prison” for the soul

The soul in Old Testament teachings was “buried” with the flesh.

• [Job 17:16 KJV] [16] They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when [our] rest together [is] in the dust. (it’s not clear what is meant by ‘together’ here. Maybe as people in a group, or maybe as man and his soul)

• [Psa 22:29 KJV] [29] All [they that be] fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

• [Psa 44:25 KJV] [25] For our soul is bowed down to the dust: our belly cleaveth unto the earth.

• [Psa 119:25 KJV] [25] DALETH. My soul cleaveth unto the dust: quicken thou me according to thy word.

It seems the soul was “trapped”.

 

It seems contradictory that the spirit would go to God, and the soul is “buried” with the body. I believe the bible is able to divide these two “essences” (soul and spirit) (Heb 4:12), and does so in the verses above.

 

The Grave is permanent

• [Job 7:9 KJV] 9 [As] the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no [more].

• [Job 21:32 KJV] 32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.

 

The snatching from the Grave.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 uses the phrase caught up in the KJV. Many know this Greek word to be harpazo meaning, among other things, “to snatch out or away”.

• [1Th 4:17 KJV] 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

The wording of the verse does not indicate from where there will be a catching up. A popular belief is that the human body will be instantly changed and “caught up” or “snatched” right out of the clothes.  What seems to be confusing is the “we which are alive [and] remain…”. But, in 2 Cor 5, God makes a person in Christ a new creature, a new creation.

• [2Co 5:17 KJV] 17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

The flesh is not made new. The spirit in man is quickened, and the man is changed in the heart. When the flesh dies, the inner man is “snatched” from the eternal grave, and taken to meet with them in the clouds. Here is the most important part. Christ conquered the grave through his resurrection. So, forever now is the soul saved from going to the grave with the body. As the human body will return to dust, the now new creation will be returned to God. The dead in Christ, those whose souls were imprisoned in the grave, will be risen first:

• [1Sa 2:8 KJV] 8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, [and] lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set [them] among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth [are] the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.

• [Job 14:13 KJV] 13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

• [Psa 30:3 KJV] 3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

• [1Th 4:16 KJV] 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Cor 15:50 says that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Verse 51 says “we shall not all sleep”. This “sleep” is the soul buried with the body in the OT.

 

Would love to hear your thoughts on this. Thanks for listening.

 

[Ezra]

On 03/04/2016 at 9:31 AM, mevosper said:

The "snatching" that I'm coming to understand is the soul from the grave.

Since souls do not remain in the graves, there would be no snatching of souls from the graves.  We need to take Scripture in its plain, literal sense, or forever wander in Fantasyland.

[SINNERSAVED]

1 hour ago, Ezra said:

Since souls do not remain in the graves, there would be no snatching of souls from the graves.  We need to take Scripture in its plain, literal sense, or forever wander in Fantasyland.

So how do you know this, ? what is the scripture, that tells us what you just stated, ? could you please prove this, for I do not know anyone that really knows what happens when we die, other then what the scripture says, and trusting on God, ?

[Ezra]

10 minutes ago, SINNERSAVED said:

I do not know anyone that really knows what happens when we die, other then what the scripture says,...

And that should suffice. In a nutshell, those who are in Christ go directly to Heaven to be with Christ, whereas those who are not in Christ go to Hades to await their final judgement. Since you believe what Scripture says, then that is exactly what Scripture says.

[SINNERSAVED]

21 minutes ago, Ezra said:

And that should suffice. In a nutshell, those who are in Christ go directly to Heaven to be with Christ, whereas those who are not in Christ go to Hades to await their final judgement. Since you believe what Scripture says, then that is exactly what Scripture says.

give the scriptures, for you have miss interpreted them  already , and so not your opinion, ? scripture will work ?

 so we can all go to the correct place if it pertains to what you are saying ,?

[mevosper]

5 hours ago, Ezra said:

Since souls do not remain in the graves, there would be no snatching of souls from the graves.  We need to take Scripture in its plain, literal sense, or forever wander in Fantasyland.

Correct, in a sense. The Old Testament does record that the souls remained in the grave, or "prison", until the work of Christ on the cross and his resurrection. In the New Testament, after Christ's work, souls are changed and are saved from the grave (1 Cor 15:52). It seems the bible does teach that the souls of believers in Christ do go to the Father after one's flesh dies.

Ezra, if you feel I am not interpreting scripture correctly, please provide the correct scripture so as to keep your brother from wandering in fantasy land. I posted so as to be able to have brothers and sisters correct my interpretations. However, I just cannot simply accept your opinion without some scriptural foundation.

[Ezra]

4 hours ago, mevosper said:

Ezra, if you feel I am not interpreting scripture correctly, please provide the correct scripture so as to keep your brother from wandering in fantasy land. I posted so as to be able to have brothers and sisters correct my interpretations. However, I just cannot simply accept your opinion without some scriptural foundation.

1. The first thing to understand is that the Old Testament does NOT give us the full picture about the afterlife (and the cults rely on the OT for their doctrine of soul-sleep).  Furthermore, the Hebrew word "Sheol" (which is the realm of the souls and spirits of the departed dead, located within the *heart of the earth* or *lower parts of the earth*) has been translated with a number of words, including *grave*.  However, graves are where bodies are laid to rest after death, and therefore give the appearance of *sleep*.  Souls do not sleep in graves, but bodies appear to sleep in graves. And Christians are said to *sleep in Jesus*.

2. Before the resurrection of Christ, Sheol (also called Hades in the New Testament, and frequently translated as "hell" in the KJB) had two sections or compartments -- one for the righteous dead (called Abraham's Bosom by Christ)  and the other for the unrighteous dead (a place of torment). Details are found in Luke 16:19-31. This is frequently dismissed as a parable, but it is an actual description of the afterlife. The righteous dead would remain in Sheol/Hades until the resurrection of Christ. The unrighteous dead continue to go to torments of Hades, to await their final judgement, following which they are cast into the Lake of Fire (eternal Hell), a place of conscious, eternal torment.

3. Following the resurrection of Christ (immediately thereafter) "the gates of Hell" (Hades) were torn down by Christ metaphorically, and He took all the OT saints with Him to Heaven (Eph 4:8-10).  They had been held *captive* in Sheol, but Christ's resurrection set them free, and then their souls and spirits were perfected.  Hence they are called "the spirits of just men made perfect".  They are all in the New Jerusalem.

4. Also following the resurrection of Christ, every believer goes directly to Heaven. All these believers who died in Christ are called "the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven". The Scripture below gives us the full picture: But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (Hebrews 12:22-24).

5. The death of Stephen the martyr illustrates what happens to the souls and spirits of Christians (Acts 7:54-8:2). Stephen's body *slept* in the grave, but his soul and spirit were received by Christ, at the right hand of the Father. And it is IMPOSSIBLE to be asleep in the presence of Christ and God. (No one sleeps in Heaven, as you will note as you view the scenes of Heaven in Revelation).  

The doctrine is stated thus (2 Cor 5:6-8): Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:(For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

6. Now that we know where the souls and spirits of the saints are, we can understand the doctrine of the Resurrection-Rapture. This event is designed to perfect the saints so that they can enter Heaven, stand at the Judgement Seat of Christ, and then become *the Lamb's Wife*. What happens at the Rapture is that Christ personally brings all the souls and spirits of the departed saints and joins them to their resurrected, glorified, and immortal bodies.

At the same time He transforms the living saints (who are alive at that moment), so that they are perfected before they enter Heaven with Him. He will make our *vile bodies* like unto His glorious body. All of this is taught in many passages such as 1 Cor 15:5-57; 1 Thess 4:13-18; 1 John 3:1-3, John 14:1-3, etc.  This is the motivation for Christians to *purify themselves* even as Christ is pure (1 Jn 3:3).

[mevosper]

 

 

 

Ezra, in point 5, you are telling me that Stephen's soul-less body is sleeping, when obviously his body is dead. Then, however, in point 1, cults use the OT for their teachings of soul-sleep, according to you. Are you being consistent here? 

In point 3, the gates of hell are torn down "metaphorically". In point 2, the parable of Lazarus and the rich man is, according to you, literal. Again, it seems like there is a twist to make things work for Ezra. 

1 Cor 15 is a logical proof of the resurrection from the dead of Christ.

1 Cor 15:20 - Christ became the first fruits of them that slept. First fruits unto life. Unto life from what? from the imprisonment of the soul in the grave.

I want to tell about the truth. We don't get a glorified "flesh" body. We have a quickened spirit. And our soul is saved from the pit for eternity. There IS now life after death. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Rom 8:1).   

We are alive, and we have the liberty that God gave us through Christ's death. I think the idea of that freedom and liberty is lost. I think it is lost by holding onto ideas and false teachings and dreams. Who do we have to answer to? Christ! When? Daily! We are already at his judgment seat.

It seems to me the way the Rapture is taught is incorrect. The spirit and soul are taken/snatched/raptured to God. The body, however, returns to dust.

 

 

 

[Ezra]

21 minutes ago, mevosper said:

Ezra, in point 5, you are telling me that Stephen's soul-less body is sleeping, when obviously his body is dead.

Please read what was stated again. The dead body gives the appearance of sleep. So you have deliberately misrepresented what I said.

21 minutes ago, mevosper said:

In point 3, the gates of hell are torn down "metaphorically". In point 2, the parable of Lazarus and the rich man is, according to you, literal. Again, it seems like there is a twist to make things work for Ezra. 

You gave the impression that you wanted to learn something.  If you believe what you have stated about me above, then you don't really want to learn anything, but to simply promote your false doctrine.  Goodbye.