mevosper

It appears to me to be a desire for clarity in which there are seemingly conflicting events within the same time period. If there is a requirement to have the mark of the beast to buy and sell (Rev 13:11-17, which seems to be a time of sorrow, devastation, and forced submission due to "Possibly one good reason for the mark in the first place. All the green grass is gone, a third of the fish dead, bitter water. Won't be much to forage." ), it would seem ill-timed to have a period of eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage (Matt 24:36-41, which seems to be a carefree time of joy and exuberance)?

The angel in Rev 18:1 had great authority. In Thayer's Greek Lexicon, one definition of exousia (the Greek word used for "authority" or "power" (KJV)) is "the power of rule or government". My thought process immediately went to Isaiah 9:6 [Isa 9:6 KJV] 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. God has given all authority in heaven and earth to Christ: [Mat 28:18 KJV] 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. [Jhn 3:35 KJV] 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. [Jhn 17:2 KJV] 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. Christ has great authority, the greatest authority on all the earth because it was given to him by the Father, the king of Heaven and Earth. For these reasons, it seems evident to me that Christ is that angel in Revelation 18:1. Rev 18:1 (KJV) And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory

I am of the persuasion that Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit. In regard to Rev 18:1 the immaculate conception can be viewed as the sending of Christ by God, or phrased another way coming down from heaven. Christ was sent from God in heaven to with a message of hope and to fulfill God's will. [Jhn 3:13 KJV] 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven. [Jhn 8:23 KJV] 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. [Jhn 17:16, 18 KJV] 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. ... 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. Christ descended from Heaven by God through the natural process of birth with a message.

Concerning Christ's ability to light up the earth with his glory, here are a number of verses that capture this sentiment using imagery of the sun: Malachi 4:2 (KJV) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. [Luk 1:78-79 KJV] 78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, 79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and [in] the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace. [Jhn 1:9 KJV] 9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. [Jhn 8:12 KJV] 12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. [Mat 17:2 KJV] 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. [Rev 1:7, 16 KJV] 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. ... 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength. [Rev 22:16 KJV] 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star. To conclude, Christ is the glorious light that shines on earth.

Lately, I've viewed this from a figurative, spiritual stance such that it is a representation of a person. If I allow myself that liberty, then the rest of the verse must describe that person as well. After which, the rest of Chapter 18 is seems "unhidden". Rev 18:1 (KJV) And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory "angel": messenger, envoy, one who is sent, by implication a pastor. Young's Literal Translation uses the word 'messenger'. In the literal sense, a person that is sent by God with a message. The message in this case is that Babylon has fallen; again, the message being figurative in which Babylon represents something literal. This messenger must meet these criteria: come from heaven have great power light up the earth with his glory Christ fits all three of these criteria.

Being raised Pentecostal Very heavy in rapture and millennial beliefs. I spent most of my adult years believing the millennium reign. 5 years ago I had a thought: "Why would Christ bring me from heaven to rapture my dead body? If I'm already in my glorified body, why return to the earth". Four years ago I started listening to an audible KJV, religiously! Anywhere I would have before listened to radio or music, I plugged in the KJV. It was all my ears "ate". The feeding this has given my soul is indescribable. I've listened to Revelation MANY times, even certain chapters repeatedly. Revelation is a revealing of who Christ is SPIRITUALLY! I know these capital letters won't convince you, but maybe raise a question. All that babble just to say I don't know what the millenium is. Literal, it is not.

Retro What are your thoughts on Ezekiel 40:1 concerning the day? Do you hold the belief that it was some arbitrary day? [Eze 40:1 KJV] 1 In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth [day] of the month, in the fourteenth year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day the hand of the LORD was upon me, and brought me thither.

Retro I believe this is an important topic. There is much confusion about the plan of God regarding the Jews and the Gentiles and the saving grace of God through Christ. From what I understand, the label 'replacement theology' is the belief that Christians would receive the benefits and blessings from God rather than the Jews. The Christians have "replaced" the Jews as the people of God. Is this it in a "nutshell"? Personally, I don't subscribe to this belief. When Christ came, he came to the Israelites. [Mat 15:24 KJV] 24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. [Rom 1:16 KJV] 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. [Zec 8:23 KJV] 23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days [it shall come to pass], that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard [that] God [is] with you. Though, his shed blood was to cover all mankind's sins. It was not a false offer to the Jews. It was real, and those Israelites that cried and followed Christ during his earthly ministry received the blessings and the hope of life and freedom from death. When Christ ascended into heaven, the apostles sat as judges of the new Covenant. The story is told in Acts 15. This is the judgment of the apostles to the Gentiles to not be bound by the Mosaic Law: [Act 15:1-21 KJV] 1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question (Apostles sat in judgment). 3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. 4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and [of] the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. 5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. 12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. 13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, (are we expecting God to again build a tent? No! ) which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is (judgment), that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. This is not replacement theology, this was the plan all along. The blessings come through the Jews, the jews of the Old and New Testaments. The old way of the Mosaic law has passed, even from the Jews, and the new Covenant comes through Christ, who is a Jew, to the Israelites then to the Gentiles. Therefore: [Rev 21:5 KJV] 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. I think it is important to say that those who did not believe Christ was the son of God are the evil ones that would receive the judgment/wrath of God (think Pharisees, Saducees, Herodians, scribes, etc.). But as Paul was one of these also, and a zealous one at that, he was turned unto the gospel of Christ and was not forsaken by God. This is what is meant by Romans 11. Obviously, he was writing the letter, but he is talking about those that may have forsaken Christ for a time, but then were turned to faith in Christ. [Isa 59:20 KJV] 20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. ...And his gifts were given

Don't give up easily what Brexit is trying to say. The people have a strong say. And as we start to realize the freedom that Christ gave us, we can then begin to make positive changes for our countries.

Angels4u I propose that it is up to the people of their respective countries. Just as British want to leave the EU, so do the people have the strength the determine their country's state.

Retro Thanks for taking the time to respond. It is clear that we are not seeing the same thing. Christ did not come to restore the physical land of Israel. He came to restore the souls of man. The Jews are the chosen vessel through which this salvation comes. Through their teachings (and inspiration of the Holy Spirit) would all man come to this saving knowledge.

Retrobyter Matt 19:28-30 “...in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory…”. This is already happening. Stephen, during his stoning, claimed to see Christ at the right hand of God. [Act 7:55-56 KJV] 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Again, the disciples were able to understand things after his death and resurrection. And probably also through the Holy Spirit that was given at Pentecost: [Jhn 12:16 KJV] 16 These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and [that] they had done these things unto him. My point here is that Christ has already been glorified. There is no multiple glorifications for Joshua, the Christ. He is already glorified. Matt 25:31-46 “When the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory” His resurrection from the dead is his “coming into glory”. Death no longer had a hold on mankind. As a side note to answer your question about how I know he is the Messiah: This is why ‘Joshua the Messiah’ (which would be a better interpretation of Jesus Christ into English) was crucified. This is why he is called The Messiah: his death and resurrection was the salvation unto life, and from eternity in the grave. His death and specifically, resurrection, nullified the judgment of sin. Throne in the skies Couple of reasons that cause me to pause regarding a physical mountain in the skies: Christ does not sit in a temple made with hands, a building, a brick and mortar house. “[Act 7:48 KJV] 48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,” The kingdom of God cannot be seen by seeing with the physical naked eye. [Luk 17:20-21 KJV] 20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. If it was in a cloud on a very high mountain, maybe a large mountain like Everest, I would be able to see the top of it in an airplane. But since I can’t see it with the physical look of my eye, I wouldn’t expect to see anything on top of a tall mountain that resembled a bright city/temple. If it was a physical mount, it would be reachable through physical means. The kingdom of God is not by physical works, lest anybody should boast. [Eph 2:7-9 KJV] 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Regarding the day in Ezekiel 40:1 Well, I do believe this is much more than just a random day chosen by God to show Ezekiel this very temple. There is significance in the 10th day of the 1st month of the year from the Old Testament perspective. [Eze 40:1 KJV] 1 In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth [day] of the month, in the fourteenth year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day the hand of the LORD was upon me, and brought me thither. This is the day that before the Passover Feast, the sacrificial lamb was to be brought into the house of the family. [Exo 12:2-3 KJV] 2 This month [shall be] unto you the beginning of months: it [shall be] the first month of the year to you. 3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth [day] of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of [their] fathers, a lamb for an house: This is day The Messiah rode upon the ass of a colt and was proclaimed to be the King. This is the day he rode into Jerusalem, into the city of the house of Israel. [Mat 21:5 KJV] 5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass. [Jhn 12:12-16 KJV] 12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, 13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed [is] the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord. 14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, 15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt. 16 These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and [that] they had done these things unto him. This is a significant day in Ezekiel that represents a law of God that is fulfilled by Jesus Christ/Joshua The Messiah/Yeshua Christos/the physical representation of God. You are guilty of not rightly dividing the word of truth. Ezekiel 43:5-12 God is talking to Ezekiel while Ezekiel is in the spirit. God reminds Ezekiel that he is a man, a human being, of dust and clay. God is telling Ezekiel that this is where he will dwell. The current priesthood has defiled the earthly temple, but they will not be able to defile his spiritual temple. (Spiritual temple: notice Ezekiel is in the spirit. Otherwise, he wouldn’t be able to see it. This is easy to understand, and don’t let the simplicity of it be too overwhelming for you. It really is that simple). [Eze 43:7-8 KJV] 7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne (heaven), and the place of the soles of my feet (earth, footstool), where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, [neither] they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places. 8 In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger. Ashamed of their sins… Correct. They are ashamed of their sins because this is what the law does, it tells of sin. [Rom 7:1-25 KJV] 1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to [her] husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of [her] husband. 3 So then if, while [her] husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter. 7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me]. 12 Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. And Christ was the fulfillment of that law, the law that is represented in the measurements of Ezekiel’s temple: [Mat 5:17 KJV] 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. They would be measuring by the standard… Of the Law of God. God defined what the law was, and by this definition, he also defines his Perfectness, Sinless, Holiness. Perfectness, sinlessness, and holiness are not just arbitrary items that one gets out of the sky. These are defined in his law and his word. So when someone says they must be measured by the standard of his Perfectness, Sinless, and Holiness, they are being measured by His law. Retro says: “Oh, and read this passage correctly: Their repentance does NOT determine whether the House will be built; their repentance allows them to see the PLANS of the House that SHALL be built! “ This doesn’t even make sense. “Their repentance does NOT determine whether the House will be built; their repentance allows them to see the PLANS of the House that Shall be built”. They already have the plans. They are located within Ezekiel 40-48. According to what I’m understanding you as saying, they need to repent to “see the plans”? However, the plans are already available. Are you saying that currently the Jews are unable to see chapters 40-48? See why I’m confused with your statement here? Are you switching from physical to spiritual here? Can you clarify what you are trying to say Ezekiel 43:18-27 This actually seems to be defined period of time (a week) in which sacrifices were made. It doesn't mention anything about being a perpetual practice in this temple age. I can see this as being Christ's passion week. Then upon his resurrection, and because of his complete atonement for sin, God’s grace was able to be poured onto mankind. Sacrifice was to atone for sin. Since the sacrifice of animals could not accomplish this completely , souls of saints were imprisoned in the grave. Once Christ was resurrected, the souls of these saints could then be resurrected as well (Dan 12:2, Matt 27:52) Christ was daily in the temple and probably getting quite a bit of “heat” from those in the priesthood, maybe even those from the seed of Zadok. Ezekiel 44 Interesting from the perspective above that the gate of the outward sanctuary (holy place), that after God accepts you, the gate is sealed. Once Christ fulfilled all the law, there was no more reason for priests to go into or out of the sanctuary. That way, the way of sacrifice, has been sealed. The outward sanctuary and inner court are 2 different areas. And again, this is a law that God wrote on tables (remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy), and also part of the law that was written on the tables of the heart (Jer 31:33, Heb 10:16). Even you highlighted a significant verse verifying this: [Eze 46:3 KJV] 3 Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the LORD in the sabbaths and in the new moons. Conclusion You accuse me of not reading, studying, or hearing the word of God. Yet you tell me that the 10th day of the first month of the beginning of the year is just some random day. That it was chosen by God to put someone in a trance to show them something that is going to happen more than 3000 years in advance. I think you are missing some very key elements in your understanding. Know this, no amount of schooling or training at any theological seminary or learning of torah is going to give you the spirit of God. You must approach God like a little child with faith. [Mat 18:3 KJV] 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. [Mat 19:14 KJV] 14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. [Mar 10:14 KJV] 14 But when Jesus saw [it], he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. [Luk 18:16 KJV] 16 But Jesus called them [unto him], and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Montana Marv Jesus Christ, while in the flesh, never talked about sitting in the temple. He did confirm that his body was the temple in John. Retro - What is the significance of the day in Ezekiel 40:1? In Ezekiel 43:7, what do we know about God's throne, and the soles of his feet? Hint: It may have something to do with Heaven and Earth. Ezekiel 43:11-12, Why should the Israelites be ashamed to see this house of God? This seems like something they would be proud to have in their land. What standard would they be measuring against to be ashamed? Ezekiel 43:18 - 27: This is not an everlasting statute that God is ordaining. These days are a one time event. Once this has taken place, then are they (Israelites, and ultimately all of mankind) accepted by God. This points to Christ's passion and resurrection. Notice that the next chapter, 44:1 begins with the east gate being shut meaning that daily sacrifices and the sacrifices of animals are no longer necessary. They were incapable of the atonement that Christ's sacrifice accomplished. Since the ultimate sacrifice and atonement had been accomplished, the old way is shut forever, hence the gate is shut. By the way, you miss interpreted my quote. I did not suppose a pre-Messiah. Marv gave me a verse from the Old Testament, before Jesus Christ walked on the earth. If you needed clarity, you should have just left it at "What in the world are you talking about: pre-Christ?" Just out of curiosity, what would you consider a "good handle" on what the Messiah is?

Ahh, pre-Christ.

I find it interesting that Ezekiel states the sacrifices will be for burnt offerings, meat offerings, drink offerings, sin offerings to make reconciliation for the house of Israel. The author of the linked article points this out as well. This comes directly from Ezekiel 45:17. [Eze 45:17 KJV] 17 And it shall be the prince's part [to give] burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel. Ezekiel doesn't allude to these sacrifices being for memorials or teaching future generations. This would be adding to scripture. Thanks Marv. But we have very different ideas and thoughts on this. Regardless, Christ states he is the temple: [Jhn 2:19-21 KJV] 19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. Can you provide the scripture where Christ states he will occupy the temple?

Here's an interesting take on Ezekiel's temple: http://www.equip.org/article/making-sense-ezekiels-temple-vision/

Retrobyter Lack of perception and understanding does not make it nonsense. I can see this “simple analogy”, as you put it, very clearly. Not from my own wisdom. I find at times, it is easy to be nonchalant regarding the importance of the temple. This is a mistake. The tabernacle/temple is of the utmost importance to the Jews. It is the place where God met with the children of Israel. For example, also, a cloud (the indication that God was there) would cover the tabernacle when the Israelites just out of Egypt were to camp. The importance of the temple cannot be overstated. Their whole religion revolves around the temple. Jewish men had to make a trek three times a year to the temple. The physical building and furniture were just a shadow of higher things. God’s plan was not to continue the physical temple forever, but to give a foretaste of the heavenly through the use of the earthly. Heb 8:8, 9, 13 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. (9) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt;...(13)In that he saith, A new [covenant], he had made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away. Heb 9:1, 11 Then verily the first [covenant] had also ordinances of divine service, and worldly sanctuary…(11) But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building

How is it determined that this is a "peace treaty"? Is there some scripture that says this, or is it just an assumption based on...?

Christ in John 2:21, references his body as the temple. I believe what is talked about in Ezekiel 44, Christ fulfilled by dying on the cross and being raised from the dead: "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." He was the ultimate sacrifice. Capable of providing life after death. He is that temple in Ezekiel 40-48. Wasn't the East gate used to bring the sacrifices? While the Israelites were marching through the wilderness, they surrounded the tabernacle according to Numbers 2. The only gate through at that time was the opening pointed toward the east. All sacrifices were brought through that gate. Christ was the final sacrifice, hence the closing of the gate. I can't respond to the Jewish religious traditions. I have noticed that some of those traditions have Old Testament references. Are those available? Concerning Rev 21:25, is talking about a city. Ezekiel 40-48 is talking about temple grounds not in a city. Two different things. I'd like to see some scripture backing up the "Messiah coming through the golden gate". The resurrection of the dead, seems to me, happened in Matt 27:52, 53. So wherever they were buried I guess would be from where they were resurrected.

John D - I'm not clear on what you are trying to say.

I hadn't seen this thread before starting another. In short I believe the rapture is the saving of the soul from the grave. Relevant bible verses below. The Body returns to earth There are a number of bible verses teaching the flesh will return to the ground. [Gen 3:19 KJV] [19] In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return. [Job 34:15 KJV] 15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. [Psa 104:29 KJV] 29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. [Ecc 12:7 KJV] [7] Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. The Grave as a prison From what I’m understanding, the grave in Old Testament writing is compared to a prison. [Isa 24:22 KJV] 22 And they shall be gathered together, [as] prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. …a ”prison” for the soul The soul in Old Testament teachings was “buried” with the flesh. [Job 17:16 KJV] [16] They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when [our] rest together [is] in the dust.(it’s not clear what is meant by ‘together’ here. Maybe as people in a group, or maybe as man and his soul) [Psa 22:29 KJV] [29] All [they that be] fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: andnone can keep alive his own soul. [Psa 44:25 KJV] [25] For our soul is bowed down to the dust: our belly cleaveth unto the earth. [Psa 119:25 KJV] [25] DALETH. Mysoul cleaveth unto the dust: quicken thou me according to thy word. It seems the soul was “trapped”. It seems contradictory that the spirit would go to God, and the soul is “buried” with the body. I believe the bible is able to divide these two “essences” (soul and spirit) (Heb 4:12), and does so in the verses above. The Grave is permanent [Job 7:9 KJV] 9 [As] the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no [more]. [Job 21:32 KJV] 32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb. The snatching from the Grave. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 uses the phrasecaught up in the KJV. Many know this Greek word to be harpazo meaning, among other things, “to snatch out or away”. [1Th 4:17 KJV] 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall becaught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. The wording of the verse does not indicate from where there will be a catching up. A popular belief is that the human body will be instantly changed and “caught up” or “snatched” right out of the clothes. What seems to be confusing is the “we which are alive [and] remain…”. But, in 2 Cor 5, God makes a person in Christ a new creature, a new creation. [2Co 5:17 KJV] 17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. The flesh is not made new. The spirit in man is quickened, and the man is changed in the heart. When the flesh dies, the inner man is “snatched” from the eternal grave, and taken to meet with them in the clouds. Here is the most important part. Christ conquered the grave through his resurrection. So, forever now is the soul saved from going to the grave with the body. As the human body will return to dust, the now new creation will be returned to God. The dead in Christ, those whose souls were imprisoned in the grave, will be risen first: [1Sa 2:8 KJV] 8 He raiseth up thepoor out of the dust, [and] lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set [them] among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth [are] the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them. [Job 14:13 KJV] 13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! [Psa 30:3 KJV] 3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit. [1Th 4:16 KJV] 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 Cor 15:50 says that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Verse 51 says “we shall not all sleep”. This “sleep” is the soul buried with the body in the OT.

Wasn't deliberate. You are saying they give the appearance of sleep. My intention for the post was to have holes knocked through the idea. To have it tried, as in a fire among brothers and sisters, what is being interpreted in my mind. As iron sharpens iron, or "testing the spirits". I'm always learning. If not, I'm dead. But, honestly, there was no impression given of learning. I presented an idea for consideration. Are there points that you see as refutable? If falsehood cannot be found, does that make it truth?

Ezra, in point 5, you are telling me that Stephen's soul-less body is sleeping, when obviously his body is dead. Then, however, in point 1, cults use the OT for their teachings of soul-sleep, according to you. Are you being consistent here? In point 3, the gates of hell are torn down "metaphorically". In point 2, the parable of Lazarus and the rich man is, according to you, literal. Again, it seems like there is a twist to make things work for Ezra. 1 Cor 15 is a logical proof of the resurrection from the dead of Christ. 1 Cor 15:20 - Christ became the first fruits of them that slept. First fruits unto life. Unto life from what? from the imprisonment of the soul in the grave. I want to tell about the truth. We don't get a glorified "flesh" body. We have a quickened spirit. And our soul is saved from the pit for eternity. There IS now life after death. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Rom 8:1). We are alive, and we have the liberty that God gave us through Christ's death. I think the idea of that freedom and liberty is lost. I think it is lost by holding onto ideas and false teachings and dreams. Who do we have to answer to? Christ! When? Daily! We are already at his judgment seat. It seems to me the way the Rapture is taught is incorrect. The spirit and soul are taken/snatched/raptured to God. The body, however, returns to dust.

Correct, in a sense. The Old Testament does record that the souls remained in the grave, or "prison", until the work of Christ on the cross and his resurrection. In the New Testament, after Christ's work, souls are changed and are saved from the grave (1 Cor 15:52). It seems the bible does teach that the souls of believers in Christ do go to the Father after one's flesh dies. Ezra, if you feel I am not interpreting scripture correctly, please provide the correct scripture so as to keep your brother from wandering in fantasy land. I posted so as to be able to have brothers and sisters correct my interpretations. However, I just cannot simply accept your opinion without some scriptural foundation.

Apologies for the delay. Where I was taught to believe "traditional rapture theology" (TRT, my label), it seems as though my thought process has come full circle. Traditional rapture theory teaches that Christ will return to call his dead saints first out of the ground and second those saints that are still living (the time of all this is irrelevant i.e. pre-trib/pre-wrath, post-trib/pre-wrath, etc). According to TRT, this has yet to happen. As I’ve grown in the word of God over the years, I’ve come to the learn of another interpretation of the rapture. The Body returns to earth There are a number of bible verses teaching the flesh will return to the ground. [Gen 3:19 KJV] [19] In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return. [Job 34:15 KJV] 15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. [Psa 104:29 KJV] 29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. [Ecc 12:7 KJV] [7] Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. The Grave as a prison From what I’m understanding, the grave in Old Testament writing is compared to a prison. [Isa 24:22 KJV] 22 And they shall be gathered together, [as] prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. …a ”prison” for the soul The soul in Old Testament teachings was “buried” with the flesh. [Job 17:16 KJV] [16] They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when [our] rest together [is] in the dust. (it’s not clear what is meant by ‘together’ here. Maybe as people in a group, or maybe as man and his soul) [Psa 22:29 KJV] [29] All [they that be] fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul. [Psa 44:25 KJV] [25] For our soul is bowed down to the dust: our belly cleaveth unto the earth. [Psa 119:25 KJV] [25] DALETH. My soul cleaveth unto the dust: quicken thou me according to thy word. It seems the soul was “trapped”. It seems contradictory that the spirit would go to God, and the soul is “buried” with the body. I believe the bible is able to divide these two “essences” (soul and spirit) (Heb 4:12), and does so in the verses above. The Grave is permanent [Job 7:9 KJV] 9 [As] the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no [more]. [Job 21:32 KJV] 32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb. The snatching from the Grave. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 uses the phrase caught up in the KJV. Many know this Greek word to be harpazo meaning, among other things, “to snatch out or away”. [1Th 4:17 KJV] 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. The wording of the verse does not indicate from where there will be a catching up. A popular belief is that the human body will be instantly changed and “caught up” or “snatched” right out of the clothes. What seems to be confusing is the “we which are alive [and] remain…”. But, in 2 Cor 5, God makes a person in Christ a new creature, a new creation. [2Co 5:17 KJV] 17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. The flesh is not made new. The spirit in man is quickened, and the man is changed in the heart. When the flesh dies, the inner man is “snatched” from the eternal grave, and taken to meet with them in the clouds. Here is the most important part. Christ conquered the grave through his resurrection. So, forever now is the soul saved from going to the grave with the body. As the human body will return to dust, the now new creation will be returned to God. The dead in Christ, those whose souls were imprisoned in the grave, will be risen first: [1Sa 2:8 KJV] 8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, [and] lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set [them] among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth [are] the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them. [Job 14:13 KJV] 13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! [Psa 30:3 KJV] 3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit. [1Th 4:16 KJV] 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 Cor 15:50 says that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Verse 51 says “we shall not all sleep”. This “sleep” is the soul buried with the body in the OT. Would love to hear your thoughts on this. Thanks for listening.