woundeddog Posted September 13, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,370 Content Per Day: 0.25 Reputation: 1,054 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/21/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/18/1868 Share Posted September 13, 2016 On 9/11/2016 at 8:30 PM, StanJ said: Pharisees did believe in God the devils believe and they tremble-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanJ Posted September 13, 2016 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 336 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 166 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/08/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/12/1953 Share Posted September 13, 2016 2 hours ago, woundeddog said: the devils believe and they tremble-- You are taking that particular part of a verse in James out of context. It is irrelevant to the point we're discussing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanJ Posted September 13, 2016 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 336 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 166 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/08/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/12/1953 Share Posted September 13, 2016 On 9/11/2016 at 11:19 PM, enoob57 said: This was your statement... I have shown you from Scripture (even God's Own witness) that it is incorrect. What you do with that is totally on you... The red part was not from my post it was something you said and you didn't show me where from scripture, you just stated it. Now show me from scripture where Jesus said they didn't believe in God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanJ Posted September 13, 2016 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 336 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 166 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/08/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/12/1953 Share Posted September 13, 2016 18 hours ago, shiloh357 said: No, they were not. Not accoriding to Jesus. These men were extremely corrupt and they were Roman appointees. They were paid by Rome to keep the people under and they regularly violated the Law of Moses in order to fee their sinful excess. AND if they were believers in the Old Covenant context, they would have embraced JEsus as their Messiah as there was sufficient information in the Old Covenant to recognize him when he appeared. But they rejected Him. They rejected the one the prophets spoke of, so even by Old Covenant standards, they were unbelievers. You keep saying that shiloh, but you don't present any Scripture to support your assertion. Unless you are God and know their hearts there's nothing in scripture that says they didn't believe in God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 14 minutes ago, StanJ said: You keep saying that shiloh, but you don't present any Scripture to support your assertion. Unless you are God and know their hearts there's nothing in scripture that says they didn't believe in God. That is complete and utter nonsense. I didn't say they didn't believe in God. Simply believing in God doesn't make someone a believer. Jesus criticism and condemnation of the Pharisees as the "sons of Hell" is common knowledge. Jesus said they were of their father the devil (John 8:44). That doesn't sound like they were believers. They were not believers because they rejected Jesus as the Messiah. They plotted to put Him to death. More than once they tried to stone Him. The Bible does not present them as believers. You're just grasping at straws to hold on to a losing argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanJ Posted September 13, 2016 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 336 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 166 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/08/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/12/1953 Share Posted September 13, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, shiloh357 said: That is complete and utter nonsense. I didn't say they didn't believe in God. Simply believing in God doesn't make someone a believer. Jesus criticism and condemnation of the Pharisees as the "sons of Hell" is common knowledge. Jesus said they were of their father the devil (John 8:44). That doesn't sound like they were believers. They were not believers because they rejected Jesus as the Messiah. They plotted to put Him to death. More than once they tried to stone Him. The Bible does not present them as believers. You're just grasping at straws to hold on to a losing argument. According to Paul in Romans 10, it does, For with the heart one believes and thus has righteousness and with the mouth one confesses and thus has salvation John 8:44 is directed at the Judeans, not Pharisees. In any case all of these examples show they believed in God but just not the things that Jesus was advocating. Again Jesus was using a metaphor here not literally saying that they were children of the devil. Edited September 13, 2016 by StanJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 8 hours ago, StanJ said: According to Paul in Romans 10, it does, For with the heart one believes and thus has righteousness and with the mouth one confesses and thus has salvation John 8:44 is directed at the Judeans, not Pharisees. In any case all of these examples show they believed in God but just not the things that Jesus was advocating. Again Jesus was using a metaphor here not literally saying that they were children of the devil. Actually, John uses the phrase, "the Jews" to refer to the religious leadership of Judea at that time. He is the only one of the Gospel writers that does that. He was addressing his comments about devil being their father to them, not to all of Judea. I understand that they are not literally the offspring of Satan. The point is that according to Jesus, they were not believers. Their hearts and minds and attitudes toward Jesus reflected the power of Satan over them. And Jesus refers to them as the sons of hell, which indicates that their belief in God was not sufficient to save them, much less call them believers. No one in Christianity sees them as believers. You're really going against the Bible. Believing in God doesn't make us a "believer" by biblical standards. Only those who have trusted in Jesus as Lord and Savior. You are trying to artificially broaden the definition of what a 'beleiver' is in order to justify your weak, senseless, unbiblical argument just so you can claim that "beleivers" committed blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. You need to stop with the nonsense. The bottom line is that you cannot find anywhere in the Bible that a Christian committed blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woundeddog Posted September 13, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,370 Content Per Day: 0.25 Reputation: 1,054 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/21/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/18/1868 Share Posted September 13, 2016 (edited) 9 hours ago, StanJ said: It is irrelevant no its not StanJ== you are over intellectualizing the whole narration It clearly says that just believing in God is not enough for salavation Edited September 13, 2016 by woundeddog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanJ Posted September 13, 2016 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 336 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 166 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/08/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/12/1953 Share Posted September 13, 2016 10 hours ago, shiloh357 said: Actually, John uses the phrase, "the Jews" to refer to the religious leadership of Judea at that time. He is the only one of the Gospel writers that does that. He was addressing his comments about devil being their father to them, not to all of Judea. I understand that they are not literally the offspring of Satan. The point is that according to Jesus, they were not believers. Their hearts and minds and attitudes toward Jesus reflected the power of Satan over them. And Jesus refers to them as the sons of hell, which indicates that their belief in God was not sufficient to save them, much less call them believers. No one in Christianity sees them as believers. You're really going against the Bible. Believing in God doesn't make us a "believer" by biblical standards. Only those who have trusted in Jesus as Lord and Savior. You are trying to artificially broaden the definition of what a 'beleiver' is in order to justify your weak, senseless, unbiblical argument just so you can claim that "beleivers" committed blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. You need to stop with the nonsense. The bottom line is that you cannot find anywhere in the Bible that a Christian committed blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. The Book of John uses the term 'Jews' nine times, so which verse are you referring to because it's not in the John 8? Again please point out the scripture you're referring to? You're being way too vague. Again you're using your modern, 21st century, Christian understanding of the New Testament to judge what is and isn't a believer and at the time of Jesus the Pharisees were indeed believers. Jesus even commended Gentiles for being believers and having faith and they definitely had not confessed Jesus Christ as Savior. Bottom line is you can't find anywhere in the New Testament that anyone committed blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which is why Jesus warned them and did not indict them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanJ Posted September 13, 2016 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 336 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 166 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/08/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/12/1953 Share Posted September 13, 2016 5 hours ago, woundeddog said: no its not StanJ== you are over intellectualizing the whole narration It clearly says that just believing in God is not enough for salavation In the context of showing and producing fruit which are good works. Not in the context that we're discussing about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Not over intellectualising the narration, I'm practicing proper biblical hermeneutics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts