Deez131 Posted March 5, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 164 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/05/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/05/1967 Share Posted March 5, 2005 Free will? No one who is enslaved to satan is free. And one who is a bond slave to Jesus doesn't want to be free. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Amen, amen, amen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khristeeanos Posted March 5, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 109 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,278 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 29 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/07/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted March 5, 2005 Predestination is Biblical. Predetermined salvation is not. Predestination is God forseeing a sinful choice by Adam and Eve and then with that foreknowledge predestining a plan to save mankind. Even the so-called "proof text" of the Calvinists Romans 9 proves the freewill of mankind: 33 As it is written: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deez131 Posted March 5, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 164 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/05/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/05/1967 Share Posted March 5, 2005 There are many things in this post I would like to respond to, but a few that I will respond to...... Pastor Frank,Mar 4 2005, 10:17 PM] Just think of all the money the Calvinist churches are wasting sending out missionaries.Why try to convert those who are already chosen and why waste our time with those who can not be prevented from going to hell? For many reasons. Probably the most important one being: It is a command of God. Other than using them for bingo parlors,Calvinists must think that churches serve no good purpose other than to comfort those who are being sent to hell. Actually, that's not what we think. Not in the slightest. I would actually be a little offended by that if I didn't already know that quite a few people really don't have an understanding of Reformation Theology, The Doctrines of Grace, Calvinism...whatever you want to label it. Contrary to what you stated in your post about what Calvinists actually believe, I know that God uses all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. (Romans 8:28). One of the differences between what you were saying and what I actually believe is this: HE is the one that takes all the credit for our salvation. Not man. God is sovereign and it's a beautiful thing. Certainly those who are assured of salvation don't need a church education and if God has determined they will be saved,it isn't necessary for them to spend time in church when they can use their time to greater personal advantage by working and making money. I am quite assured that you don't have a very thorough understanding of Reformed Theology. This in no way conveys what we actually believe. On the contrary. We believe in fellowship with our christian brothers and sisters, attending church on a regular basis, learning and growing in Christ, etc...etc...etc .... I attend a Baptist church. It is Reformed in it's beliefs. Visiting my church, if you haven't delved into Reformation Theology, you wouldn't know the difference between it and another Baptist church. There are a few verses in the Bible that seem to support Calvin's theory.The problem is the New Testament has to be accepted in its entirety.To understand Christianity you can't just pull out a few verses here and there which Calvin did The one thing you are correct in saying here is that the New Testament has to be accepted in its entireity. The whole Bible does. Sola Scriptura (scripture alone) is one of the most important teachings in Reformation Theology. The key is, we have to accept it - even if it makes us uncomfortable or goes against our human pride or our way of thinking. One of the biggest discussions I always seem to have with christians who are reading up on reformed theology is this: Man wants to insert himself into his own salvation and has a difficult time believing that salvation is of GOD and not of man. God is the one with the power to save - not man. If God is going to save someone, He has the power to save that person. The original question was asking about where the choice comes in and how that goes with free will. People tend to think about free will as autonomous will - will that is answerable to noone. That is impossible with a sovereign God. God is in control of everything and can do anything He wants at any given time. He can strike us dead if He wants to. Our choices are determined by our desires. We choose according to the strongest inclination we have. In choosing Christ, we have to use one of three things: Autonomy (which is impossible since God is sovereign), desires based upon our fallen condition, or desires based upon our saved condition. Man, in his fallen condition has no desire for Christ. Man, in his saved condition does. In order to choose Christ, He changes our hearts and gives us that desire to choose Him. We make that choice according to the strongest inclination of our will (which is for Him since He turned our hearts toward Him). We choose Christ. We are using our choice to choose Him - guided by Him changing our hearts in the first place. I personally am beyond thankful that He changed my heart to want to choose Him. I couldn't have done it on my own - and I am eternally grateful to Him for my salvation. To get an honest view of Reformed Theology, there are many resources. RC Sproul has some great books that talk about it in a way anyone can understand. Spurgeon, Edwards, Calvin, Luther. The list goes on. My personal favorite is James White. He's done his research, he's fair in his evaluations, he states things accurately...not to mention he's an all around nice guy. His website is aomin.org. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane Posted March 5, 2005 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted March 5, 2005 Great post Denise I have to agree with you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinity Posted March 5, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 92 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,244 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 63 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/30/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted March 5, 2005 God Chose us from the beginning because he knew we were going to be saved from the beginning. God chose the willing, and therefore God picked us from the biginning, Its still free will, but God knew the out come, because the father lives out of Time and Eternity Example: Kids playing on the play ground! Bill picks Jim right away because he goes into the future and he knows Jim really wants to be on his team so Bill picks Jim, Jim made the choise to be on Bills team, and Bill chose, its still free will on Jim's part Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bukeye2745 Posted March 6, 2005 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 59 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/20/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted March 6, 2005 IMO God chose us all from the beginning. Otherwise why would He have created children? But He at one point grieved in His heart that He had made man on earth (Gen 6:6). Therefore He knows what will be in the end and knows who will make it and who won't but we don't. We have our own choices to make if we want to be in the Kingdom or not. Blessings, Jen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted March 7, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 86 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 624 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/20/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 7, 2005 The original question was asking about where the choice comes in and how that goes with free will. People tend to think about free will as autonomous will - will that is answerable to noone. That is impossible with a sovereign God. God is in control of everything and can do anything He wants at any given time. He can strike us dead if He wants to. Even if we are answerable to God, and he can do anything he wants to us at a given time, how do we not consider salvation arbitrary if God chooses how when and where we are saved? God Chose us from the beginning because he knew we were going to be saved from the beginning. God chose the willing, and therefore God picked us from the biginning, Its still free will, but God knew the out come, because the father lives out of Time and Eternity Trinity, even if this argument were provable, the very fact that God knows what will happen and our inability to change the outcome destroys the idea of free will. We can only have free will if we are given a legitimate choice. In the garden of Eden, God may have known Eve would likely eat of the forbidden fruit, but if he knew they would be sinners, why create them at all. I believe God gives us a legitimate choice because he wants the best out of us as moral creatures, but knows in order for us to BE moral we must have that choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deez131 Posted March 8, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 164 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/05/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/05/1967 Share Posted March 8, 2005 Steff,Mar 7 2005, 10:53 AM] The original question was asking about where the choice comes in and how that goes with free will. People tend to think about free will as autonomous will - will that is answerable to noone. That is impossible with a sovereign God. God is in control of everything and can do anything He wants at any given time. He can strike us dead if He wants to. Even if we are answerable to God, and he can do anything he wants to us at a given time, how do we not consider salvation arbitrary if God chooses how when and where we are saved? I really don't look at it that way. I have no problem with God saving me - no matter how He did it. I'm not gonna argue with Him about His methods or if He "violated" my free will in any way. I mean, c'mon.....He saved me. I'm thankful! I'm not being a smart aleck here, I'm really, honestly serious. On the other hand, I can truly appreciate His methods. I think His plan is perfect and fits together very nicely. It all makes sense to me. I explained how we don't consider it arbitrary in my last post. We still "choose" Him. He just chose us first. We still "make a choice" for Him, but it's based on our will which has been regenerated to WANT to choose Him. If we WANT to chose Him, I don't see where the violation is. Heck, even if He violated my free will, I wouldn't have a problem with it. The end result is being with Him in Heaven. I'm all for that! God Chose us from the beginning because he knew we were going to be saved from the beginning. God chose the willing, and therefore God picked us from the biginning, Its still free will, but God knew the out come, because the father lives out of Time and Eternity Trinity, even if this argument were provable, the very fact that God knows what will happen and our inability to change the outcome destroys the idea of free will. We can only have free will if we are given a legitimate choice. In the garden of Eden, God may have known Eve would likely eat of the forbidden fruit, but if he knew they would be sinners, why create them at all. I believe God gives us a legitimate choice because he wants the best out of us as moral creatures, but knows in order for us to BE moral we must have that choice. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ok...I didn't write that, but I wanna answer it. I don't agree that God chose us based on ANYTHING He knew we were going to do. That shows that God is dependent (for lack of a better word) on us or counting on something we do to fulfill His plan. Uh uh. Ephesians 1:4-5 says it better: Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will. Just think about this for a sec..... God didn't choose us based on something He knew we would or wouldn't do. How can the Bible say we are predestined to adoption? What would that be based upon? If it's based upon a human choice with no help from God, how could it ever be accurate? Humans certainly aren't without error. The certainty in the Bible behind the statements regarding salvation is this: He's the one who brings it about. He knows He's going to bring it about. We are predestined to adoption - and that is a sure thing - based on His plan to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jacee Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 My view of freewill is connected to my view of the book of life. Not many agree with me on this, but that is ok. I believe that all mankind is "saved". A blanket salvation encompassing all of us. All who are born are written into that book of life. At the end of our life, if the spirit of Christ has not been allowed entrance into our spirit; we are blotted out. And during all of our life, He is continually working by Holy Spirit who is in the world, to bring man into that revelation. There are some who are chosen; there are some who are whosoevers. We aren't free until we are born again. Our will is bent to sin. How can one make choices when we are all headed to eternal death unless there has been a transition into a different kingdom where it is life. And the scripture is plain where it says unless the spirit draws man, we cannot come to Him. All that the Father gves to Jesus will come to Him. And he who comes to Him, He will in no wise cast out. We are captivated by His love. That causes us to will to do His will. For it is God who both worketh in you to will and to do of His good pleasure. I went through a time of struggling. I remember praying Lord make me to will to do your will. Was that of me? I think not. Was His spirit in me crying out for salvation to my soul. I know I have heard others say the same thing. He loves us and we are His children. If He loved us enough to sacrifice His own Son for us; He will love us enough to keep us. Not really freewill. And personally, IMO, if man had total freewill, our earth would be blown away by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinity Posted March 8, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 92 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,244 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 63 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/30/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted March 8, 2005 Parents; If you were to put a bowl of M&M's on the table, and you told your children not to eat them, then you left the room for awhile. You would know what child took some and what child wouldn't. Is that forcing your children to take the M&M's even though you knew who would? No... that is there choice you just know the out-come. Your knowing it ahead of time does not restrict Your child from making a free choice when the time comes. Your child is free to make a choice and knowing the choice has no effect upon him/her when he/she makes it. Likewise, for God to know what a person will choose does not mean that the person has no freedom to make the choice. It simply means that God knows what the person will choose. This is necessarily so since God knows all things (1 Joh 3:20). Besides, if a person were to choose Jesus instead of Not Jesus, then that is what God would have known would happen. By analogy, knowing what will happen does not mean that we are preventing or causing that thing to happen. The sun will rise tomorrow. I am not causing it to rise nor am I preventing it from rising by knowing that it will happen. Our freedom is not restricted by God's foreknowledge; our freedom is simply realized ahead of time by God. Parents; Would you rather want you children to love you because they want to love you, or because you are forcing them to love you? We all know the answer, you want them to want to love you, not by force. If there really is predestination, im renaming my name R2D2 after the robot from star wars, cause besides, that is all i am a living robot if predestination were true... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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