Mortification

[dwinkjr]

Sorry, have to jump back in here. 

I can't see being a soldier, or driving even in the same boat as comparable to Drinking or doing drugs.  Not even apples to oranges, more like apples to beef.

The point is not in whether the topics are comparable the point once again is where does one draw the line. When do we stop giving up things that are ok, and start educating the masses on what the Bible says.

Are you seriously going to march around the bar explaining and preaching the word about how your one or two beers are okay.... and God is okay with that.  We aren't talking about the future.  NOW, people would see you and think, that you have a crutch too.

We aren't talking about what is culturally acceptable, we are talking about living in a way that would not tolerate sin to creep in.  Like I said in a previous response....

So if you were at home, and no one was around, and you decided, hey I'd like to enjoy a couple beers, nobody is here and I am comfortable with it. So you have a few beers, or a couple. But then an hour later, you get a call that someone needs you to come immediately to the hospital? Hmmmmm if you had 3 pepsi's you could drive yourself......

Here you are assuming that when one drinks they are drinking in excess to the point of legal intoxication, this is not the case for anyone who is drinking responsibly and in moderation.

No I am not. Seriously, if you had just one or 2 beers you would drive? I find that unacceptable. You don't really know your own tolerance, you may think you do, but you do not. I am not only speaking about legal intoxication, say that the police officer goes to your church, he is new, and he asks you if you had anything to drink and you say yes. Are you seriously going to break out the Bible and explain to him that it is okay with God? Really, I feel you are gettting a little semantical. The idea is, if it would hinder, even if you feel it is okay, you should obstain for the edification of God and his Church. God will bless you more if you are willing to sacrifice for the sake of winning others to him. This is not only done in preaching and teaching, this is the cashier at the store where you bought that beer, she doesn't know that you are only going to drink one or two, even if that matters. She just sees the beer, and then you greet her with a farewell, "God Bless You", and you have one misguided cashier. You JUST CAN'T KNOW how much what you do in living affects others daily lives.

It is legalists who have created this false ideal that alcohol is inherently sinful, and will try to claim Christ drank Juice not wine. What bothers me more then somebody having an occasional drink is folks coming on here posting like alcohol in and of itself is sin, and therefore make Christ a sinner. Legalism in this sense can cause more damage then any Christian having a couple drinks.

This isn't about limiting the Christian in his/her ojurney to holiness, it is about creating a journey with the least casualties, and a journey that is God centered. Drinking, smoking, doing drugs, etc... these are selfish things. They are personal choices that have nothing to do with God. They give the individual a pay off, a release, a high, a buzz, that satisfies a longing. But they neglect to see that God can fill that longing. He can be the there to quench your thirst at dinner, he can be there to help you chill after a very long work day, he can be there in those moments when you just need to relax. I find it to be, a lack of faith that God is enough.

Like above, it would be nice to think that they things we do in private don't affect other people but they do eventually. I know this full well. Things affect you, and whether you choose to think so or not, you cannot hide who you truly are in the end. I again, ask you to answer the above question asked by me in an earlier post.

What kind of example would you be if on your way to the hospital you were pulled over, and found to have been drinking alcohol, or under the influence of drugs?

What would you do if you chose not to drive, call someone and say, well, I need you to come take me to the hospital, because I drank alcohol tonight, and I don't want to take the chance. Whether you think that the person you call will be okay with it or not, it is showing poor judgement, and an inaccurate witness of a Christian striving for holiness.

Again at no point do a drink to a point that I cannot function normally, nor is it for a buzz or to relax. It is simply because after a hard days work, I on occassion enjoy a beer or two. This does not constitute a lack of faith that God can provide everything I need. You are making false assumptions based off of your personal history.

How do you know you can't function normally. I watched a study where they had a group of many people gather at a hotel bar, where no one was driving, it was very controlled, and they had the bar open. The asked people beforehand, how many drinks they thought they could handle etc. They kept interviewing the participants every hour, and they would estimate as to how many drinks they had had, and then they offered them a simulated driving test. Ones used by drivers ed courses to help students learn on. And there were a few who said they had only had a couple drinks and felt like they could totally drive home if they needed to. Both people ran a couple lights, one ran a person over, and the other crossed over the center line several times. Their interviews were obvious on the effects their "2 glasses of wine" or 2 drinks had had on them, but they were able the next day to see the tapes of their experiment. MANY of the particpants were so embarrassed by how they acted, and reacted on film. They laughed at how together they really thought they were, but noticed that on film they were a little tipsy. A few were interviewed then, and they said they never would have guessed that they were that out of control. They thought they were totally in control, they thought they always had been very conservative with Liquor and were very good at limiting themselves. YOU JUST CAN'T KNOW.

Lastly, this isn't based on my personal history. This is based solely on HOLINESS. The Holiness that God has called us all to. And you can try and save the world and country by re-educating them on how you feel God really feels on Alcohol and Drugs, while I will be living a life that will show them I need nothing but Jesus, there is NOTHING that can satisfy me like Him. I am not talking about the future. The future is guided by the now, and right now, I will deny self, and my selfish desires, and I will try to live in a way that no one will question what my beliefs are or even be given the chance to.

My whole life I grew up in a very liberal, hippie home. All things were geared to what made everyone feel good. So as you can imagine I saw ALOT. It has always been acceptable. I never EVER would have questioned what I knew, cussing, drinking, smoking, drugs, sex, disrespect for authority,etc. That is what I knew. But I found Jesus. And I let HIM take over my life, and I told him that if there were things that I needed to change, even if it seemed stupid and menial at the time, that I wanted him to show me. And he has. And now I see the difference. It was never even really a sacrifice, because I was truly happy, free, and fulfilled when God filled that part of my life with righteous behavior.

Alcohol is a deal breaker to me. I have seen the serious damages and am affected my self by the destruction it can cause. It has no place in my life. I know that I have an addictive personality, I will not even subject myself to the idea of it, because why would I give Sin a chance to slip in?

Everyone's ideals and opinions are based on their personal history, their is no way around that, the key is realizing that just because you feel this way about a particular topic does not mean that everyone does, or even that God does. Too often we take our personal convictions and pronounce them as they are the laws of God.

I don't mean to sound judgemental, but I have really come to a point where I can't beat around the bush any longer. I just feel like you are pulling at straws to justify your selfish habits and wants. It is absolutely your choice, and I will not be judged for that, but I cannot accept it any longer, those who believe to the contrary to the principles of Holiness, to come on here and say it is acceptable. It is not. Not by any stretch of imagination or scripture. God does not tolerate selfish desire that COULD hinder his flock. The God I Love and Serve would never tolerate this behavior.

I apologize for the bluntness, but I feel it had to be said. GB

MHO

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God Bless,

Dave

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No need to apologize for how you feel, but you do need to make it clear this is how YOU feel. I in good concience can continue to have an occasional drink, I know that it does not come between me and my Saviour in the slightest. However I am led to avoid legalism completely, the whole thing really leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and IMHO is more damaging to the Gospel then alcohol, smoking, tattoos, etc... ever will be.

God Bless,

Dave

[Shelby]

No need to apologize for how you feel, but you do need to make it clear this is how YOU feel. I in good concience can continue to have an occasional drink, I know that it does not come between me and my Saviour in the slightest. However I am led to avoid legalism completely, the whole thing really leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and IMHO is more damaging to the Gospel then alcohol, smoking, tattoos, etc... ever will be.

God Bless,

Dave

It is how I feel, but it is also what I believe to be true about holiness. I do think that God is a personal God, but I also think that he wants us to have some type of accountability to the people we come into contact with, because it is Jesus that they are to see in us, and if there is something that we are doing that might possibly hinder that view, then I believe it is every believers duty to abstain from it.

Also, I am not about legalism at all. I have not been taught any of what I feel and believe on this subject from anyone. I have totally and solely been led by the Holy Spirit within my heart and mind regarding this.

The point being, this isn't really about rules and regulations, it is about living freedom. Absolute freedom. And I think it is the delivery and intention behind the discussion and witness of this type of lifestyle. Maybe your bad taste is because of how it seems to come from man, and that is where the perspective has to be changed. It is not motivated by man, but by God.

I do understand though the frustration of extreme legalism. But I think the church has gone to the other extreme and become accepting and watered down the gospel so as to include all people with all their personal hang ups and habits. But that is not what we are called to be. We are called to be set apart. There is a way we can accept and love all people because God created them, but there comes a point when we need to make sure that all who come through our doors know that we are serving up PURE GOSPEL, nothing watered down, to fill our pews, or dressed up to seem more attractive.

I think people under estimate the the Beauty and Chrisma of Christ. He doesn't need to be dressed up. He needs no help from us when it comes to the delivery, we are called to just love and serve people into the kingdom. We have become more and more sensitive to people, rather than the Holy Spirit.

So, I came to this revelation and confrontation. And that is why I posted this. I want to see Jesus, I don't want to see other peoples views of Jesus, or a multi media presentation of who he might have been. I WANT HIM! And I think we fail to recognize and give God credit that His Word is attractive in and of itself if we would preach it and live it without compromise of, revising, and dressing it up.

Thanks for listening to my ramblings. I am still working through this step in my journey.

GBU

[dwinkjr]

I am sorry that you think Jesus drank alcohol, but the scriptures specifically said he drank "wine", yet if you look, it was "The fruit of the vine" that he drank. Now if yoiu knew anything about the history of the english word "wine", you would know that it did not come to exclusively mean "Alcohol" until the time of prohibition. Before then, the same word, "Wine" could refer both to alcohol, and "Grape Juice". Jesus did not drink fermented wine. He drank new wine, which is fresh grape juice.

Are you familiar with the fermentation process? Do you realize they did not have refrigeration in Biblical times? You realize Grapes are a seasonal crop? Now If you understand these things you would know that their was no way to keep the Grape Juice from fermenting, without refrigigeration by the 3rd day the juice would have started to ferment and become wine. So unless they made new juice every 2days, which means they only had it seasonally then they were drinking alcoholic wine.

Do you know that the people at the wedding where Jesus turned the water into wine were NOT drinking alcohol? How do I know this? The Governor, and apparantly everyone else there was SOBER even after they had drank the original stocks of wine. He was sober to realize that the wine Jesus had made tasted better than whatever they had been drinking.

What does Sober have to do with the Wine having alcohol or not? You see the whole idea here is they ran out of Wine before the celebrating was done This would mean they had too little for everyone that was there, you are assuming that by the time they ran out everyone had had enough to get looped. You are basing this strictly off assumption and very little fact.

Do you know that the wine used in the OT rituals was not alcoholic? It couldn't be. There could be no leaven (fermentation) in the bread for the meal offerings. There could be no blemish on the animals for the sacrifices. There could be no sickness or deformity in the priesthood. There could be no fermentation in the wine for the drink offerings. Does the Bible forbid alcohol to the believer? Absolutely!

Please sight your sources that this was a non-alcoholic wine.

Duet. 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

Here we see drunkenness compared to rebellion, disobedience, and gluttony.

Duet. 29:5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot. 6 Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God.

Here we see WINE AND SRONG DRINK(alcohol) dulls your ability to discern God! No mentioin is made of the fence law of "Well, you guys didn't get drunk, you had a few beers, but that's ok." NO, he said they hadn't drank ANY wine or strong drink.

duet. 29 18, lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood; 19 And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst: 20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.

Yet elswhere in Deut. we see this.

Deu 14:23 And thou shalt eat before Jehovah thy God, in the place which he shall choose, to cause his name to dwell there, the tithe of thy grain, of thy new wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herd and of thy flock; that thou mayest learn to fear Jehovah thy God always.

Deu 14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it, because the place is too far from thee, which Jehovah thy God shall choose, to set his name there, when Jehovah thy God shall bless thee;

Deu 14:25 then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thy hand, and shalt go unto the place which Jehovah thy God shall choose:

Deu 14:26 and thou shalt bestow the money for whatsoever thy soul desireth, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul asketh of thee; and thou shalt eat there before Jehovah thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou and thy household.

Context is very important when studying the word of God.

Again, "Little leaven leaveneth the whole lump."

Leviticus 10:9 - Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

Now you ARE the Temple of God, and do you put alcohol in your body, when it was a sin to go into the tabernacle having drank alcohol?

Numbers 6:3 - He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.

Jesus did not drink alcohol. HE WAS A NAZARITE. THE NAZARITE. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A SIN TO DO SO.

By your interpertation Christ couldn't of even drank grape juice or eaten grapes.

Num 6:4 All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the grape-vine, from the kernels even to the husk.

maybe a further examination of the context is in order?

Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Proverbs 31:4 - It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: 5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.

Do you know that WE are kings and priests to God? Do you know it is a sin for kings and priests to drink alcohol? It was a SIN for the priest to drink alcohol.

Revelation 1:6 - And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 5:10 - And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Micah 2:11 - If a man walking in the spirit and falsehood do lie, saying, I will prophesy unto thee of wine and of strong drink; he shall even be the prophet of this people.

FALSE PROPHETS tell people it is ok to drink alcohol, and the sinners gladly hear it.

Then there is the common sense witness that virtually EVERY time someone in scripture got to drinking, they and the people around them got in serioius trouble. Do you know that Noah apparantly commited and act of homosexuality with his own son after he got drunk? Lot committed incest TWICE after getting drunk.

Do you know that no alcoholic started off drinking, thinking, "You know, I really want to be a bum and a drunk one day?" Do you know that they too lied to themselves and said, "I just drink alcohol because I want to come home and relax and just have a beer or two?" EVERY drunk started with just one sip of alcohol. EVERY pervert started with just one sin. EVERY addict started with just one puff on a cigarette, or some other drug.

A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

It is time to grow up Church.

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