QUESTIONS concerning 1Cor.15 & 1Thes.4

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 11/20/2016 at 11:44 AM, WailingWall said:

I believe the 1Cor.15 event will take place and its described in Ezek.37

Paul gives explicit explanation on the resurrection of the Dead in Christ.
It involves new and immortal bodies.

1Co 15:35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?" 36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became A living soul." The last Adam became a life- giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

In Ezekiel 37, the dead of Israel will live again, on the earth with human bodies:

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone. 8 And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them;

1Co 15 describes a different kind of resurrection of the dead than does Ezekiel 37.
1Co 15 is a spiritual body.
Ezekiel 37 is an earthly body.

People will live and die on the earth during the Millennium.  

Isa 65:20 "No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days,
Or an old man who does not live out his days;
For the youth will die at the age of one hundred
And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred
Will be thought accursed.
21 "They will build houses and inhabit them;
They will also plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 "They will not build and another inhabit,
They will not plant and another eat;
For as the lifetime of a tree, so will be the days of My people,
And My chosen ones will wear out the work of their hands.
23 "They will not labor in vain,
Or bear children for calamity;
For they are the offspring of those blessed by the Lord,
And their descendants with them.

And people who lived before will live again:

Ezekiel 44:10 But the Levites who went far from Me when Israel went astray, who went astray from Me after their idols, shall bear the punishment for their iniquity. 11 Yet they shall be ministers in My sanctuary, having oversight at the gates of the house and ministering in the house; they shall slaughter the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister to them.

Ezekiel 44:15 "But the Levitical priests, the sons of Zadok, who kept charge of My sanctuary when the sons of Israel went astray from Me, shall come near to Me to minister to Me; and they shall stand before Me to offer Me the fat and the blood," declares the Lord God. 16 "They shall enter My sanctuary; they shall come near to My table to minister to Me and keep My charge.

The land of Israel is parsed out to the twelve tribes of Israel - of old - in the book of Ezekiel.
Paul said: All of Israel will be saved.
But they are not of the Elect at Jesus' Return because they do not yet believe.

There is a special dispensation to the priestly class, but Jerusalem itself is only said to be the Camp of God in the book of Revelation.
That is because it is not our home.
We are taken to the barn of Heaven.
And you do not have to live where you reign.

It is at the second Resurrection, at the end of the Millennium, when Jew and Gentile are truly, and finally, united in one body of believers in Christ Jesus.

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Here, logically from Scripture, is why the Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath.

When will people wake up to this reality?  A trumpet for salvation cannot also be a trumpet for wrath.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 11/19/2016 at 3:27 PM, WailingWall said:

MATTHEW 24 [29] - [31]  Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation. How do you Rapturist explain this.

It's not the tribulation "period".
It's the Great Tribulation.

It is a misnomer to call the one 'seven' the "tribulation period".  
Those who are due death as a measure of justice are not unduly "distressed".   It is a measure of God's Justice that they suffer.
Only the innocent are unduly distressed when persecuted to death.

Such is the effect of the Great Tribulation.
The effect of the Great Tribulation is on the Elect - only.
The reason, back in verse 22, that God shortens the time of the Great Tribulation - is so that some of the Elect would survive.

These surviving Elect are the subject of 1Th 4:17.
There Paul terms them: "we who are alive and remain" because most are dead and gone because of the Great Tribulation.
So much for death and taxes as being certain; because for some of us: we will never die.
It is only for those few at that time who are raptured, that is: caught up while still alive.

Since Jesus began the detailed portion of the "end" with the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel -
- it is only fitting to go to another account with that revealed to see the source for the Great Tribulation:

Rev 13:14 And he (the false prophet) deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast (of a man - the anti-Christ), telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life. 15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast (anti-Christ: King of the North) to be killed. 16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.

The reason for the Great Tribulation are the TWO LAWS which go into effect at the midpoint abomination: the talking image of the anti-Christ.
As Jesus said would happen after the midpoint abomination:

Mt 24:21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

This event is both specific and unique: it has never happened before, and it will not be repeated.
And we are told to do neither of the things proclaimed!
That is why the Elect are in serious danger of being eliminated.
AND the wicked have NO fear because they do both - their lives are not in danger.

So when Jesus says:

22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved;

It concerns only that life which is being threatened.

Staying for a moment on Revelation 13, subsequent to it is the Harvest of Rev 14:14-16.
And after that - two Angels begin God's Wrath with fire and blood in Rev 14:17-20.
These are two elements also found on the Day of the Lord.
They are also both of the elements found with the first Trumpet of God's Wrath- blown by an Angel when the Scroll is finally unsealed in Rev 8.

The Last Trumpet is a named Trumpet blown by God assembling His Elect.
The numbered Trumpets of Revelation blown by Angels are announcement calls introducing God's Wrath.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Marcus O'Reillius

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 11/20/2016 at 0:32 PM, WailingWall said:

ZECH.9............ God shall blow the trumpet {last one}...............lift up ensign

ISAIAH 18.......He {God} shall blow the trumpet {last one}.......lift up ensign

Not so fast...

When I actually checked the language, I found you're making a lot of assumptions here so as to state your conclusion that they are the same - and they are not.

Zec 9:16 And the Lord their God will save them in that day
As the flock of His people;
For they are as the stones of a crown,
 Sparkling in His land. - NASB

Zec 9:16 And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people:
for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land. - KJV

Both lines come from the same two words: H5264 - nacac, and H127 - 'adamah

nacac means to lift up, to exalt.  
As they relate to the jewels of a diadem, the KJV makes them into an ensign which misses the point of the jewels (stones) in the first place.
There is no banner, no ensign in the original language.

And that is why the NASB, the best word-for-word translation we have in the English, uses "sparkling" to convey the brilliance of these Jewels of God's.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 11/20/2016 at 0:32 PM, WailingWall said:

ZECH.9............ God shall blow the trumpet {last one}...............lift up ensign

ISAIAH 18.......He {God} shall blow the trumpet {last one}.......lift up ensign

And not so fast again.

Isa 18:3 All you inhabitants of the world and dwellers on earth,
As soon as a standard is raised on the mountains, you will see it,
And as soon as the trumpet is blown, you will hear it. - NASB

The standard is raised before the trumpets of battle sound.
And it never says the Lord God blows this particular trumpet...
 

On 11/20/2016 at 0:32 PM, WailingWall said:

ISAIAH 18......I will take my rest, and I will consider in my dwelling place

PSALM 132....this is my rest for ever: here will I dwell......Zion

While both chapters may describe the battles around Jerusalem that are fought on the Day of the Lord, your reliance upon a coincident of words to say we will be taken to the land of Israel on the Day of the Lord is erroneous!

In Isaiah 18:4, God is looking FROM His Dwelling Place - where Jesus is now.
In Psalm 132:14, Jesus will dwell in the Land of Zion - read Ezekiel 44.  He will reside in the Temple in Jerusalem from time to time.

On the Day of the Lord - when the Last Trumpet sounds - it is a day of battle, of fire and blood, and it is not a fit place for Christ's Bride: the Church.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 11/22/2016 at 3:05 PM, WailingWall said:

Yes i understand some of these new books that are written added the word "THE" before the great tribulation but the bible does not

No THE

The demonstrative adjective, while pointing to a specific megas thlipsis, is not required.  
There is only one megas thlipsis in the Bible: the one that comes after the midpoint abomination as Jesus defined it: a specific and unique time.

And like the Olivet Discourse, the arrival of the Great Multitude happens after the prerequisite sun/moon/star event preceding the Day of the Lord.
What we are seeing is a Great Multitude, who come out of time of intense persecution, IN HEAVEN, before the Father, and they have all the requirements of the Elect:
~they have washed their robes white in the blood of the Lamb. 

Petty nit-picking dismissed.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 11/22/2016 at 2:56 PM, WailingWall said:

I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

Yup. And where will He be when He recieves us to Himself? Not in heaven

That is so juvenile.   On another website chat board you list yourself as being 65 years-old.  Oh really?
Jesus is about to ascend to Heaven.
He will be missed by the Apostles.

Not to worry, He says, I will come back and take you to where I am about to go.
And the Great Multitude are delivered to the "barn" of Heaven in Revelation 7:9-17.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

There are five times the Bible lists two resurrections to the spiritual realm.

On 11/22/2016 at 3:13 PM, WailingWall said:

Yup EZEK.37 [9] .[12]  Which ones this one?  The 1st or 2nd?  Brings His people to Israel after resurrection

That resurrection of souls is to mortal bodies on the earth.
When we are resurrected from the grave, we will have immortal and imperishable bodies - 1Co 15.
Ezekiel 37 is not one of the two resurrections spoken of in Revelation 20:5 versus 20:12.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On Ezekiel 37 being a unique resurrection of Israel to the Millennium ~ 

On 11/22/2016 at 3:24 PM, WailingWall said:

Im not quite sure i understand you. A third resurrection???? Im speechless

There are two resurrections to the spiritual realm.
This resurrection is to the earth in mortal and perishable bodies.

Hebrews 9:27 aside, Ezekiel 44 states that people who lived before in the time of Israel before she was conquered - will live again in the Millennium.
Hebrews 9:27 is true - but only for the Church Age.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 11/22/2016 at 3:48 PM, WailingWall said:

There certainly is - Its all about the 4 winds

No, be serious.  That is an idiom of speech in both contexts.  It means 'from all over'.

That is not a serious linkage, but only the barest of coincidence in wording.  
I'd call it grasping at straws...