QUESTIONS concerning 1Cor.15 & 1Thes.4

[Salty]

3 hours ago, Sister said:

Hi Salty

I am only explaining the angle from where I am coming from.  It's for anyone else who is reading also.  Not to insult you.

Yes this is true, all who have died will hear Christ's voice.  All have to give an account.  No one escapes this.  This is the point John is making, but in a condensed form. 

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

I see NO condensing of the subject there in those verses. It's important to note the specific hour Lord Jesus gives that BOTH "shall come forth" in that specific "hour", and not one resurrection at the start of His 1,000 years reign and the other at the end of it. It's very specificly pointing to BOTH resurrections at that same "hour" there. (Remember, the division between chapters and verses in the KJV was provided by the translators, not by the NT Greek manuscripts. The subject of the first phrase in verse 29 is a continuation of the last phrase of verse 28).

 

3 hours ago, Sister said:

We know that there are two resurrections.  One at the coming, and the second after the thousand years (White Throne Judgement). 

Those dead not caught up in the first resurrection hear nothing until the 1000 yrs is over at the 2nd judgement.  Then they will hear Christ's voice (The Word of God) when he judges them according to the books.  If they are written in the Lambs book of life, they will be resurrected then, if not, lake of fire, the second death.  All will hear his voice at their appointed time.

 I have to say the following for others here. The 'dead' are not "caught up" per 1 Thess.4, what many call the rapture. The "caught up" idea is only about the saints still alive on earth when Jesus comes. The asleep saints (dead) are resurrected on that day, i.e., raised. The gathering to Jesus involves two separate groups of saints, one group from heaven Jesus will raise and bring with Him, and then another group of alive saints on earth caught up to be with them. That is what 1 Thess.4 teaches.

The "resurrection of damnation" is about being raised from the dead. It's simply for the wicked dead though. In order for those to stand before Christ's Judgment Seat, they must be raised from the dead. The John 5:28-29 Scripture concerning the wicked is not about their going into the "lake of fire". It's about the wicked dead being raised from the dead but still being subject to the "second death" later. The majority of my brethren simply misunderstand this because of thinking with the carnal fleshy mind, not understanding the difference between flesh death vs. death of one's soul with spirit. Our soul-spirit CAN be separated from our flesh body, as the NT shows (Eccl.12:5-7 actually reveals this also).

Paul himself said it was his hope that there would be a resurrection of the 'unjust' also:

Acts 24:15
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
KJV

So did Apostle Paul simply have a "hope toward God" that the wicked would be resurrected just to be judged to the "lake of fire"??? Of course not! What kind of "hope toward God" would that be? Did not our Lord Jesus even pray for mercy upon those who murdered Him on the cross? Are God's people so full of hatred against the unsaved that our hope for the wicked is to just cast them into the lake of fire? What of those men which God ordained to be hard-hearted so His Salvation could go to those who believe?

The second inferred... resurrection at the end of the 1,000 years has nothing to do with the wicked going into the lake of fire. It has to do with the unsaved who 'hear' during the 1,000 years and believe on Jesus Christ and are thus saved to the resurrection of life. Like Jesus said, you don't get evil fruit off a good tree, so the "first resurrection" which is about the "resurrection of life" is NOT inferring a second resurrection being about the "resurrection of damnation" into the lake of fire.

[Salty]

3 hours ago, Sister said:

 Revelation 20:5   But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection (below V6)

Revelation 20:6   Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

2 different appointed times.

But the remnants of Israel are different.  They are chosen by election (not all).  All those who did not bow to the knees of Baal are reserved of Israel.  They come out of their graves when Christ returns, but they are not resurrected immortal, only back from the dead in their flesh, so they can multiply more children for the Lord to be raised in the 2nd resurrection.

 

Isaiah 66:8   Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

(The resurrection of the saints)

  Isaiah 66:9   Shall I bring to the birth (the resurrection), and not cause to bring forth? (Israel) saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

At the 1st resurrection, the remnants of Israel will come forth also, but in the flesh.  The womb is not shut yet, her other children are yet to come)

I don't see anywhere in God's Word that you would get that kind of doctrine about Israel. I'm familiar with Darby's Dispensationalist ideas about Israel being a kingdom in the flesh during Christ's future 1,000 years reign with the Church reigning with Christ from heaven, but there is no Bible Scripture to support that idea. Revelation 20 and the OT prophets reveal enough evidence that idea simply has no Biblical basis at all:

Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
KJV

Christ's future 1,000 years reign with His elect priests and kings will be HERE, on earth.

This also is what is shown in Rev.20:9 with the "camp of the saints" being upon the "breadth of the earth" even to the end of the 1,000 years.

 

The "remnant" of Israel, the ones Apostle Paul mentioned, God had preserved unto The Gospel per Romans 11; they represent Christ's Church, even as the Apostles are in that group. You know who else is in that group, since Paul also makes a distinction in that chapter between Gentiles and unbelieving Jews? Believers of the scattered ten lost tribes of Israel are also... part of that "remnant" according to the election of grace that Paul spoke of.

So we cannot have some idea (Darby) like the 12 tribes of Israel gathering only means a resurrection back to a flesh body with a fleshy kingdom on earth during Christ's Millennial reign. There is no Scripture evidence for any such idea. Darby simply came up with that doctrine to try and give more support for his false pre-Trib Rapture theory of being raptured to heaven.

 

 

[Salty]

4 hours ago, Sister said:

Salty

I don't know if I am understanding you correctly nor do I want to offend you or appear to have authority over a man.  This is just a discussion, board, so please don't take it personal. 

The scriptures don't show me this.  There is no order here?  It disagrees with Rev 20 and many other verses. 

When I showed you scripture saying that the child will live to a hundred whether blessed or cursed.  This is for real. This is happening during the millennium.  I was hoping you would really look into it.  Children will be born, and they will die after living a ripe old age.  Death has only been conquered for the resurrected saints, but the rest of the world whether Jew or gentile living during the 1000 yr reign, they will be flesh.  They are having babies!  They are teaching their children!  Knowledge covers the earth because the Word of the Lord is coming out of Jerusalem and spreading to all nations.  Truth now, no lies.  They take it or they leave it.  The fact is they have been given TRUTH, not lies.  Satan is locked up, he cannot do any harm, cannot contaminate the truth, but when he is released from his prison after the 1000 yrs, he causes war, and there is death again (Gog and Magog battle)  His armies start turning on each other, then they attack the camp of the saints.  They are attacking flesh, those inhabitants there inside the kingdom, not the holy saints, but the Jews.  He's doing it again.   Please explain?  ...

 

1 Corinthians 15:26   The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

 Revelation 20:14   And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

As a believer on our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, you really 'should' be familiar with this idea from Scripture about spiritual death vs. flesh death.

Why did Jesus refer to the blind scribes and Pharisees as "whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead mean's bones"? Simply because of their unbelief caused their soul-spirit to remain in darkness, and subject to perishing.

What's the whole purpose of our belief on the Blood of Jesus Christ sacrificed on the cross for us? Our belief is so that we might be saved unto eternal Life through Jesus The Christ! You know, our spirit being "born again" of The Spirit.

But with someone who rejects Christ, they are spiritually dead. Those scribes and Pharisees were still alive walking around in their flesh, yet Jesus compared them to tombs full of dead men's bones? Yes! Because in that state their soul-spirit is doomed to perish in the lake of fire in the future IF they do not change.

This is the meaning of those "dead" of Rev.20:5.

It has nothing to do with being resurrected, even as you yourself admit the wicked are resurrected also.

In other words, just having the resurrection body does NOT mean automatic Salvation through Christ Jesus. One's soul-spirit MUST also put on immortality by being "born again" through Faith on the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
KJV

That "synagogue of Satan" represents those like the unbelieving scribes and Pharisees. When will that event of their coming to bow in worship of Christ at the feet of His elect occur??? It will occur during the 1,000 years Millennium reign of Christ and His elect. In other words, that's showing Christ's Church on earth judging over the wicked. This is shown in the OT prophets, like Ezekiel 44, and it's pointing to unbelievers of Israel also.

 

About Isaiah with children playing on the holes of asps, or living to be 100, those are expressions for the idea of the resurrection body which after Christ's 2nd coming, only GOD will have the power to put to death, which means the "second death" which is the later casting of one's soul with spirit into the "lake of fire" at the end of the Great White Throne Judgment.

We have 3 parts: our flesh body, our spirit which is hard-linked to our soul. That's it.

Our flesh body can... be separated from our soul/spirit part. But our soul and spirit cannot be separated.

The "spiritual body" is a body of spirit, a body of incorruption, it has a heavenly image.

Our soul is our person, our Id, our ego, the real part of us. It MUST have a vehicle to get around in. While living on earth that vehicle is our flesh body. While in Heaven, the vehicle is the "spiritual body"

Right now, in your flesh, you have this "spiritual body" image already. It's attached to your soul (your Id). At flesh death, your soul with spiritual body will simply 'step out' of your flesh body. In Eccl.12 Solomon showed this with the severing of the "silver cord".

When God's consuming fire burns the elements of man's works off the surface of this earth on the "day of the Lord", the final day of this present world, which also is when Jesus comes to gather His Church, that will end... this present flesh world. This is why none will still be in flesh bodies on that day that begins Christ's future 1,000 years reign.

 

Edited December 7, 2016 by Salty

[Sister]

6 hours ago, Salty said:

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

I see NO condensing of the subject there in those verses.

Salty

At the time John wrote that, the book of Revelation had not yet been opened to "reveal" what was not mentioned in those verses.  They had not got the full story yet, but we have the full story now, all the books.  So how could John "reveal" then what was not yet "revealed" to him at that time?  It's only half the story, condensed, ....all summed up but without the details!

Now we know there is a thousand year gap between the first resurrection and the second resurrection.

....and what John wrote is simple, true but without the thousand year details, so we have to slot that knowledge in there with our understanding now from this;

 Revelation 20:5   But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

I don't understand what you think I am missing?  So how can all the dead be resurrected at the coming if it says they live not again until the 1000 yrs are over?  .........It can only mean the rest of the dead are still in their graves.

[Sister]

Quote

As a believer on our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, you really 'should' be familiar with this idea from Scripture about spiritual death vs. flesh death.

Yes I am familiar with that, but don't forget that people really die.  Once dead they await judgement, whether they be accepted, or condemned to the lake of fire.

[Salty]

2 hours ago, Sister said:

Salty

At the time John wrote that, the book of Revelation had not yet been opened to "reveal" what was not mentioned in those verses.  They had not got the full story yet, but we have the full story now, all the books.  So how could John "reveal" then what was not yet "revealed" to him at that time?  It's only half the story, condensed, ....all summed up but without the details!

Now we know there is a thousand year gap between the first resurrection and the second resurrection.

....and what John wrote is simple, true but without the thousand year details, so we have to slot that knowledge in there with our understanding now from this;

 Revelation 20:5   But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

I don't understand what you think I am missing?  So how can all the dead be resurrected at the coming if it says they live not again until the 1000 yrs are over?  .........It can only mean the rest of the dead are still in their graves.

I disagree, because that John 5:28-29 Scripture is speaking of both resurrections happening at the same "hour" when all come out of their graves.

Both types of resurrection are covered there with no separation of time between them. If a 1,000 year time separation between them was implied, then Jesus would not have been specific with that time marker like in that "hour" all coming out of their graves and going to their specific resurrection type, which points to a specific point of time, not many different times. Also, Jesus linked that event of both resurrections with the event of His 2nd coming, with that idea of hearing His voice, which is pointing to the voice of the Archangel that's to occur on the last day of this world.

Now in Scripture like Matt.13 about the tares going into the fire, there is no mention of a Millennium there, yet we know per Rev.20 there is, so that's easy to understand, and there is nothing there in Matt.13 to conflict with the insertion of the 1,000 Millennium of Rev.20. Yet in John 5:28-29 we can't insert the Millennium because Jesus linked those resurrections with the time of the resurrection at His 2nd coming. And He does come once after the trib, and then not another time after the 1,000 years. He only returns one time, at the end of the trib (actually to end the trib), and that's when He gathers His Church and the final battle on earth happens with God's consuming fire burning the elements of man's works off the earth, thus ending this present world.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2016 by Salty

[Salty]

2 hours ago, Sister said:

 

 Revelation 20:5   But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

I don't understand what you think I am missing?  So how can all the dead be resurrected at the coming if it says they live not again until the 1000 yrs are over?  .........It can only mean the rest of the dead are still in their graves.

What you are missing is understanding the difference between things of this present world and the world to come. It's been a long-standing Jewish tradition to think that flesh has to be tied with our 'soul' when further study in God's Word shows it is not. That tradition has many Christian brethren today under it also, thinking that they are going to get a new 'flesh' body in the resurrection. Yet Apostle Paul was very specific in 1 Cor.15 about what 'type' of body the resurrection is, with the idea of the "spiritual body" and "image of the heavenly".

During the future 1,000 years, to be one of the "dead" of Rev.20:5 means to be one of those still subject to the "second death". Rev.20 defines the "second death" as the casting into the "lake of fire" at the end of the 1,000 years. That is not a 'first' death which is to the flesh; it is a second death which means to the spirit with soul. The devil and his angels don't have flesh bodies, so what is it that makes them perish in the lake of fire? It's a specific destruction by God Himself, by His Fire, which is how it can destroy even their spirit bodies.

The idea of the 'living' in that Millennium time will be only about those of the "first resurrection" which are the only ones not subject to the "second death". To still be subject to that means liable to die, but not a death to one's flesh, but to one's soul/spirit in the lake of fire. This is why if you look closely about those who stand before God's Great White Throne Judgment after the 1,000 years, they are still called 'the dead' when they appear to be judged. It's because without belief on Christ Jesus the soul is spiritually dead, literally, and subject to the "second death".

Look at the end of Hebrews 12 about the event on the last day of this world, with God's consuming fire. That is the event Peter was referring to in 2 Pet.3:10 on the "day of the Lord" about the elements burning up. God is going to bring a fire upon the WHOLE earth on that final day of this world, and it will burn everything up from this present world. So how will flesh survive that? It will not, which is what the little hint about the plague in Zech.14 is about, eye balls melting in sockets, etc. Even the event in Daniel 3 of the hot fiery furnace heated seven times hotter than necessary serves as an example of that coming event upon this present world to end it, as Christ was seen in that hot furnace protecting Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednigo, their coming out of it with their clothes not even smelling of smoke.

This is why our Heavenly Father in His OT prophets revealed that coming consuming fire event being for the wicked like waking up from a dream. It's about the flesh being destroyed on that day, revealing the spiritual body image, a resurrection body that everyone still alive on earth will be changed to.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2016 by Salty

[Salty]

2 hours ago, Sister said:

Yes I am familiar with that, but don't forget that people really die.  Once dead they await judgement, whether they be accepted, or condemned to the lake of fire.

 

Because eternal Life through Christ Jesus is not about the flesh, as Paul showed also in 1 Cor.15 when he said flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, that is why we need to understand what the resurrection is about, and the change at the twinkling of an eye Paul spoke of in 1 Cor.15.

On the day of our Lord Jesus 2nd coming, the dead are raised right then to their types of resurrection, and the saints still alive on earth are 'changed' to be joined with the asleep saints. The resurrection body is the "spiritual body" Paul taught in 1 Cor.15. That is also the type body those alive are changed to at the twinkling of an eye on the last trump.

Isaiah 25, where Paul was pulling from about death being swallowed up in victory, is about the 'vail' of this present world being removed even for all peoples and nations. That idea is pointing their being 'changed' on the last trump also, and the unsaved dead being raised too on that day. In the Millennium there will be a separation between the wicked and Christ's saints, but the wicked are still going to be there throughout that 1,000 years as I also showed with the Rev.3:9 example.

[Sister]

Hi Salty

Ok thanks for taking the time to explain all that.  I have to ponder on it for a while, for there's a lot to read.

[n2thelight]

On 11/17/2016 at 5:21 PM, missmuffet said:

All of the born again believers will be taken to heaven in the rapture of the Church. This is a different event than the second coming at the end of the seven year tribulation.  Then there will be the seven year tribulation. The unbelievers will be on earth for the seven year tribulation. Many of those unbelievers will come to Christ and become believers because the Holy Spirit will still be on this earth. Those who become Christians during the seven year tribulation will become martyrs. They will die under the Antichrist because Christians will be forbidden at this time. At the end of the seven year tribulation Christ will come back to earth and Satan will be bound and then Christ will set up the 1000 year millennium on earth. There will be a very small remnant of believers left to go into the 1000 year millennium. All of those who took the Mark of the Beast from the Antichrist will go to hell. Then will not go into the 1000 year millennium.

Can't be true,the tribulation is simply satan pretending,ie deception to be Christ.

How can he(satan )pretend to be Christ while going around killing people?

The majority of the world will think satan is Christ,it's all about deception....