QUESTIONS concerning 1Cor.15 & 1Thes.4

[Salty]

If Jesus gathers up His elect on the "day of the Lord", then that contradicts what Marcus wrote previously about the day of The Lord happening at the midpoint of the tribulation with a rapture of the Church.

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Marcus said:

"In the detailed parallel account to the Seal/Scroll chronology, in Rev chapters 13-16 the Day of the Lord, with its Harvest of Saints, cones after the midpoint abomination revealed to be a talking image of the anti-Christ."

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The midpoint means at the 'start' of the latter half 1260 days, which is when the "great tribulation" timing begins. It is not the time of gathering of the Church, because Jesus taught His gathering of the Church is after the tribulation of those days.

Then Marcus said this later, showing his confusion about the Day of The Lord timing:

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Marcus said:

"They are the Elect He gathers up on the Day of the Lord - which is shown coincidental with the sixth Seal by its signature precursor sign of the sun, moon, and star sign."

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In Matt.24:29-31, Jesus shows His gathering of His elect saints happens AFTER the tribulation, not at the midpoint like Marcus pointed out in the first quote. But he is still refuses to recognize what Jesus said in Matt.24:29-31, that His coming and gathering of His elect saints is AFTER the tribulation, and not at the midpoint.

So what Marcus is doing is following a tradition of men instead of sticking to what is actually written in God's Word.

 

[heyvavhey]

20 minutes ago, Salty said:

That's another topic you obviously are not studied on.

When God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms, setting up Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim as king over the ten northern tribes, its capital at Samaria, and was called the "house of Israel".  Jeroboam then setup false idol worship to keep the northern tribes from going down to Jerusalem to worship. A small remnant of the ten tribes migrated south to join with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin which were then called the "house of Judah" under king Rehoboam, Solomon's son.

The ten tribes God scattered to Assyria and the land of the Medes, never to return as a people, even as it is today. They lost their heritage as being of Israel. They were lost among the Gentiles, but they have been traced through history. Leroy Waterman, a linguist professor at the University of Michigan in the 1930's translated from the Assyrian tablets what the Assyrians called the captive ten tribes of Israel. And that Assyrian name he translated to the origin of the Cimmerians. Anthropology has a lot to say about the Cimmerian tribes which migrated through the Caucasus Mountains around the Black Sea, becoming known as Caucasians, and continuing all the way into Europe. Anthropology to this day still does not realize where these Cimmerian peoples originated from, but they know they migrated from the east. The Scots in their 13th century Declaration of Arbroath mentions a link to Israel and their migrations to those lands, linked with ancient Spain.

So after Jesus was rejected in Jerusalem, where did The Gospel then go to?

It went specifically to the peoples of Asia Minor and Europe next, and they believed, creating the seven Churches in Asia Minor, and eventually the western Christian nations which included the nations of eastern Europe, Great Britain becoming the first nation to accept The Gospel on a national scale even while Rome was still pagan.

This was aligned with what God showed in His Word concerning Ephraim. God's Birthright Blessings wound up on Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, and Ephraim was to become "a multitude of nations" per Gen.48. To this day, God's Birthright Blessing is still... upon the head of Ephraim who is still head of the "multitude of nations" under Christ Jesus.

But Judah, i.e., who became known as 'Jews', had only a small remnant re-established in Jerusalem/Judea after their separate 70 years captivity to Babylon. The majority of the house of Judah (tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Levi, some ten tribe remnants, and strangers) chose to stay in Babylon after the 70 years because God had taken good care of them there. From Babylon, those would be further scattered among the Gentiles.

So today, there are TWO Israels, not just one. There is the scattered "house of Israel", the ten tribes under Ephraim that would become "a multitude of nations". And then there is the "house of Judah" established in the nation of Israel, and also scattered among the nations as Jews. The majority of Israelites were not Jews of the "house of Judah". Only those of the "house of Judah" took that title of Jew, which originates from Judah.

 

 

 

 

Oy.....cult alert. 

 

That two-house baloney will rot your brain if you aren't careful.

 

 

 

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[n2thelight]

9 hours ago, heyvavhey said:

 

Oy.....cult alert. 

 

That two-house baloney will rot your brain if you aren't careful.

 

 

 

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Yet scripture teaches that to be true,but in your ignorance you reject it,and in your defense,you call it a cult alert..

So my question to you is,when from your view did the two houses,Israel and Judah come back together?

Also I can't believe you call it baloney when scripture clearly shows this to be true

Ezekiel 37:16 "Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: Then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:"

On the first stick, Ezekiel wrote the name of Judah, and it will represent all those who call themselves "Jews". It doesn't matter if they have Jewish blood or not, as long as they consider themselves of Judah. These people include those people of the tribes of Benjamin, and Judah, as well as part of the Levitical priesthood.

The whole "House of Israel", are all the Christian nations around the world. The English People are the offspring of the tribe of Ephraim, in large part. However, this second stick represents all the House of Israel that were divorced by God, and brought back as the "sons of the Living God".

By using the two sticks, God is symbolizing the division between Israel, and Judah, or in terms of today; Christian and Jew.

Ezekiel 37:17 "And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand."

Again,when did verse 17 happen?

[heyvavhey]

 

 

Unless your fathers were worshipping idols of Baal on the mountains of Samaria, you are not counted in Ephraim. 

According to the Jewish people, the people of Israel, these two sticks were restored when Cyrus issued the decree for them to return to the land and rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple, circa 537 B.C. 

I see that as only partially fulfilled, but regardless, this promise only includes the literal seed of the Tribes of Jacob. Its not intended for "Christians" or gentiles who think they're keeping torah.

All Jews are Israelites and all Israelites are Jews. Not a single gentile is included in the promise to restore the Tribes of Jacob, though all Tribes will have gentiles as "companions". 

The terms Jew, Israel, and the circumcision are used interchangeably throughout the Newer Covenant scriptures. Those not included in the land covenant given to Abraham are called "gentiles".  No gentile was ever told in the bible that they can become an "Israelite" by faith in Yeshua. If your presumption were true, it would have been mentioned at least once and confirmed by at least one witness. Nada, zip, zilch, nothing...

Do you freak out when someone points out that you are a gentile? Only someone in this identity cult would do that. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2016 by heyvavhey

[Marcus O'Reillius]

23 hours ago, inchrist said:

Marcus...did i not just say that was to the house of Israel? Who by the way became gentiles.....

LOL  Jews become Gentiles?  Now, that's funny.  You have some very funny ideas about Scripture. 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

23 hours ago, inchrist said:

Who do you think the companions are?

And because you think you know who they are, you believe you know the truth?  LOL

It's OT for Israel.  The Church, as theologians say, is a mystery in the OT.  

Except for one obtuse verse I can find for the Church Age as two millennium, which again, does not point directly or say out loud: CHURCH! - prophecy which hints at the Church can be found, but nothing concrete.

And your take on this, is yet another grasp at some jetsam to keep your idea of the Church as Israel afloat.  That is Replacement theology, and it is not valid. 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

23 hours ago, heyvavhey said:

When we are "called up to meet the Lord", we immediately go to a battle with Yeshua at Har Meggido (Ps 149:6-9) (Is 63:1). He does the fighting though and it's over quickly. 

Does Jesus really need billions of souls, His cherished Bride, to be at a battle against hundreds of millions?

In the account where Jesus is about to go out to do battle at Armageddon, do not we hear the Great Multitude of Saints He will save cheer Him on as He goes out with His Army?  Yes, we do.

And who makes up His Army - who never leaves the Lamb's side?  (Rev 14:4 - the 144,000)

As God only needed 300 to take on tens of thousands with Gideon - 144,000 will do nicely against more then 200,000,000.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

23 hours ago, inchrist said:

Now where in Rev 7 is this chamber? Where has Jesus prepared this place? 

Oh, you want everything spelled out for you?
Sorry Charlie.

Revelation 7:9-17 is in Heaven before God the Father in His Temple.

And your demands for the exact location of the "bridal chamber" are not listed - and at this junction, when the resurrected Saints and the Elect first arrive - is not the completion of the First Resurrection because the Martyrs still await the completion of their number at the end of the one 'seven' with the Two Witnesses.

THEN we will give an account of ourselves as Paul taught, and then we are rewarded with the various crowns promised us in the NT.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

22 hours ago, Salty said:

My Lord Jesus did not prophesy about coming out of the "great tribulation" in His Olivet discourse, He forewarned those in Judea to flee to the mountains when they see the "abomination of desolation", and when armies surround Jerusalem for those in the countries to not enter into that area:

None of that is speaking about a rapture. One has to ADD that idea to those Scriptures, especially with the fact that Jesus showed in His Olivet discourse that His coming and 'gathering' of the Church is AFTER that tribulation.

Well you didn't go far enough, did you?

Mt 24's Olivet Discourse is where Jesus gives us a broad overview in verses 4-14 which contain the beginning of birth pains, the Great Commission, and the "end" - of what?  Let's see...

Mt 24:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

4 And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. 5 “For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.  6 “You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.

7 “For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 “But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.  9 “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.  10 “At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.  11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.  12 “Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold.  13 “But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.  14 “This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Notice in verse 13 that the "end" is tied to being saved for the one who "endures". 
Notice in verse 14 that the Great Commission must be preached in the whole world and then that same end will come.

In the detailed parallel account of the one 'seven' in Revelation chapters 13-16 inclusive (parallel that is to the broad overview of the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 4-11 exclusive of 11:1-13) We find the Great Commission is finally accomplished after all our efforts have come to naught by the first of three Angels.  AND THEN the Harvest comes.  This is the "END" which is when the Elect, some newly believing! - are saved.

The "end" that Jesus prophesized is the end of the Church Age - when we are removed from the field of this world.

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Mt 24"s Olivet Discourse is where Jesus gives us the Keystone detailed parallel account of the "end" with no less than five specific and unique events which allows us to integrate the one 'seven' to the Seal/Scroll chronology in Revelation chapters 4-11.  This detailed parallel account leads to His Coming and the end of the Church Age when the last of us to survive the Great Tribulation are gathered up.

Jesus literally "backs up" and retells the "end" of the Church Age - when we are saved by being gathered up - and He starts with the specific and unique event: the midpoint abomination(s) desolation.

Mt 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 

Proscription to the Jews in Judea, the initial cadre of the Remnant Jews whom Jesus will hide from Satan:
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.  19 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!  20 “But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

2nd specific and unique event: the Great Tribulation:
21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.  22 “Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Warning to the Church - especially those who are Pre-Trib, Amillennial, or Preterist:
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.  24 “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.  25 “Behold, I have told you in advance.  26 “So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them.

Description of the Rapture Gathering:

27 “For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.  28 “Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

Day of the Lord - three key sequenced events:

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
31 “And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

And that ends the Church Age - the Elect join the Saints who have been resurrected from Paradise, and they go not to Jerusalem, which is about to be the center of a great battle on the Day of the Lord, but to the "barn" of Heaven, where they will be safe while the tares (wicked) are burned in the field of this world.

We can boil down the sequence of events into this outline of the Olivet Discourse's detailed parallel account:

1. (midpoint) abomination.
2. The -shortened- Great Tribulation
3. The precursor sign to the Day of the Lord: the sun/moon/star event (which effectively ends the Great Tribulation)
4. The sign of the Son of Man & His Coming on the clouds. 
5. The gathering of the Elect - who remain and are still alive after the Great Tribulation.

This puts the Rapture as happening some time after the midpoint of the one 'seven' but before the desolations God has decreed go forth.

Contributing evidence:

• In the broad overview of the Seal/Scroll chronology, the Great Multitude show up in Heaven and then the Trumpets sound.
• In the detailed parallel account of the one 'seven' of Revelation chapters 13-16, the Harvest from the clouds happens, and then an Angel in charge of the fire (first Trumpet desolation) sends an Angel out to supply the blood (a first Trumpet desolation).  This is in aid to the battle which surrounds Jerusalem and spills over to the "valley of decision" which scholars point to the valley of Jehoshaphat - which is near Bethlehem to the south of Jerusalem.

The Day of the Lord is made up of opposing halves on a couple of different levels.
It is a complex day, but one that can, from all of the relevant prophecy about it, be reconciled to fit within on 24 hour, Hebrew day.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

21 hours ago, Salty said:

The ten tribes God scattered to Assyria and the land of the Medes, never to return as a people, even as it is today. They lost their heritage as being of Israel.

It's really nice to think we're Hebrew.  In fact, it's self-aggrandizing.

With all your conjecture, and your evidence from one scholar, the best that can be said to day is that where the 10 tribes ended up - is a mystery, which hopefully, in time, will be revealed.  It's really interesting stuff to wonder about. 

However, I look to Scripture, and the Great Multitude is made of every nation, tribe, language, and people.

So unless you want to expand the 10 tribes to Asia, the Americas pre-Columbus, and Africa and other parts of the world - to say that only the lost 10 tribes - and that's the best description we can factually call them - make up Europe - still does not prevent the Gospel from going out to the Gentiles who are more than just Caucasian.

And Paul did not teach that the churches he formed in Asia Minor were of these lost 10 tribes.